Why do people like Seventh-day Adventist and Adventist doctrine?

[BobRyan]

It's not about the 10 commandments, it's not about The Law.

And Paul demands that we admit that the TEN commandments are included in the LAW of God in Eph 6:2 in Romans 13, in Romans 7 as does James demand it in James 2, as does Christ demand it in Matthew 19 -- as we have show a few zillion times on this thread.

Please give us "The Bible" instead, if you looking to present a compelling POV.

We have been given instructions by Christ himself in many places in the Bible concerning what is expected of us.

As we saw in Mark 7:6-13

How then does God view this idea of editing/downsizing one of the "Commandments of God"??


Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

James 2
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well;
9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by THE Law as transgressors.
10 For whoever shall keep the whole Law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of THE Law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

It based on "He who said"


Eph 6:2
2 “Honor your father and mother,” which is the first commandment with promise:

Ten Commandments spoken by Christ at Sinai - Ex 20. Heb 8:6-10

And in His frequently upholding of Lev 19:18 "Love our neighbor as yourself"
And to "Love God with all your heart " Deut 6:5


These are the basics,

Matthew 22:37
Jesus declared, "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'

Mark 12:30
and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'

Mark 12:33
and to love Him with all your heart and with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself, which is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."

Luke 10:27
He answered, "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' and 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

Deuteronomy 4:29
"But from there you will seek the LORD your God, and you will find Him if you search for Him with all your heart and all your soul.

Deuteronomy 10:12
"Now, Israel, what does the LORD your God require from you, but to fear the LORD your God, to walk in all His ways and love Him, and to serve the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul

=====

all of those scriptures stated - before the cross. And none of them deleting the TEN commandments

Even your own Pope John Paul II admits that the TEN Commandments are for all mankind - the moral law of God.

so also does your own CCC. This is not the part where you are supposed to differ. (Though we do have many differences with the RCC - the Bible TEN commandments as the moral law of God for all mankind -- is not one of them)... Hence my signature line.

In the first 2 commandments there is the fulfillment of the ten. No need for the 613 Mitzvahs (Commandments) of the Torah. That is really what I am getting at here. Legalism is no longer necessary now that we have Grace.

Eph 6:2
2 “Honor your father and mother,” which is the first commandment with promise:

Ten Commandments spoken by Christ at Sinai - Ex 20. Heb 8:6-10

And in His frequently upholding of Lev 19:18 "Love our neighbor as yourself"
And to "Love God with all your heart " Deut 6:5


hint: Lev 19:18 and Deut 6:5 did not "delete Exodus 20" when they were given in the OT nor when they are quoted in the NT. I think we all can see that.

And even your own Pope John Paul II, and your own CCC admit the TEN Commandments (all ten) remain included in the moral law of God binding on all mankind. I think we both know that.

your denomination and mine - have some points of difference. But this Bible detail that all TEN of the TEN Commandments are still included in the moral law of God and are still binding on all mankind - even binding on the people of God, is not one of those differences.

Is that the 2 great commandments, the 10 commandments, or the 613 commandments?

Answer: Lev 19:18 is one of the 613 in the OT and it is one of the 1050 in the NT as we see in Matt 22.

What is your point?

Here is another one --

"Do not take God's name in vain" is one of the 613 in the OT but not one of the 1050 in the NT.

I may not have explained my position on how the law no longer applies properly>

The 10 commandments do apply to us, however adherence to them does not save us.

I think we would agree that "Saved by grace through faith" is how we are saved.

Nevertheless - it is still a sin to "take God's name in vain" -- just as God's Commandments state.

For even in the NT - "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" and the saints walk the path of obedience rather than open rebellion.

Thus Rev 14:12 "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND the faith of Jesus"
"These things I write to you that you sin NOT - and if anyone does sin - we have an Advocate with the Father" 1 John 2:1.

So then we are daily "choosing" to not take God's name in vain.

What saves us is Grace though Faith.

True. Saved by grace through faith - Ephesians 2:8 and also 2:9 and also 2:10

This Grace is what actually allows us or give us the ability to follow the 10 commandments

The whole package.

So yes we do follow the commandments, however, it is not so we will be justified, that is done by faith, it is because we are justified that we follow the commandments.

Romans 3
28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,
30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.
31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Also true. Saved by grace through faith and justified by faith apart from the works of the Law. The lost sinner does not come to Christ saying "Hey I have some really great works of obedience so now save me and cause me to be born-again".

That much both sides do agree with.

Even the pro-sunday scholars in my signature line will agree with this Bible detail.

The New Covenant causes the LAW of God to be "written on mind and heart" such that God's Commandments (for example "do not take God's name in vain") written on the heart motivating the saints towards obedience instead of rebellion against the Word of God.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Peace!

This argument or discussion would go on endlessly because we are all blind. I for one admit it. The only thing that will unite us in the truth is the real baptism of the Spirit which the disciples and all who believed in the Messiah through them received. They became one with God even as Jesus is one with God. With the Spirit of Jesus in them, the new covenant was fulfilled. They became perfect even as God is perfect, able to do all the miracles Jesus did and even greater works they were able to do. They knew all things, even spoke all the languages even as God does. They cannot sin anymore:

1 John 3:9 KJV
[9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Only those who were so baptized with the Spirit could enter the kingdom of heaven. Jesus said that Kingdom will come while some of them were still alive, in their generation.

Matthew 16:27-28 KJV
[27] For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. [28] Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

We claim to be born again or baptized with the Spirit but have not the power or the sinlessness that goes with it. We deny that Jesus fulfilled his promise to return in that generation. We are trying to obey all the commandments but never become truly Christlike. We are all blind, and may continually discuss and argue until we die. In the next life, we will all see the truth. But even in this life, we could see the truth if we let the light of the Messiah's words guide us into it.

God bless!

You are right, the only thing that can unite believers in the truth is the real baptism of the Holy Spirit. For believers can only be as one through the Spirit( phil2:2) And through the Spirit we grow to be evermore as one with father and son.
There is a dividing line in Christianity and it I not according to denomination, but the baptism of the holy spirit. Many christians accept the baptism and many do not. And it and it is the holy spirit who leads us into truth.
The christian does not live an ever holier life by looking to the commandments and striving to obey them. According to Paul you are to follow after the holy spirit NOT the written code/ law for it cannot be both. Those who follow law will never see the truth for it I the Holy Spirit who leads into truth. The power to see victory over sin is in grace, not law, but most won't accept it:

For sin shall no longer be your master for you are not under law but under grace
Rom6:14

Many people can write books on how to overcome sin but Paul tells us in seventeen words.
But the person without the real baptism of the holy spirit will not be united with Paul in accepting the truth of what he wrote
God bless

 

[BobRyan]

Peace!

This argument or discussion would go on endlessly because we are all blind. I for one admit it. The only thing that will unite us in the truth is the real baptism of the Spirit which the disciples and all who believed in the Messiah through them received. They became one with God even as Jesus is one with God. With the Spirit of Jesus in them, the new covenant was fulfilled.

That is true - the Holy Spirit authors the Bible - the Word of God.
The Holy Spirit causes the New Birth.
The Holy Spirit brings about the reality of the NEW Covenant writing the LAW of God on the heart and mind.

Notice the contrast between the lost and the wicked in Romans 8

Romans 8
He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Peace!

This argument or discussion would go on endlessly because we are all blind. I for one admit it. The only thing that will unite us in the truth is the real baptism of the Spirit which the disciples and all who believed in the Messiah through them received. They became one with God even as Jesus is one with God. With the Spirit of Jesus in them, the new covenant was fulfilled. They became perfect even as God is perfect, able to do all the miracles Jesus did and even greater works they were able to do. They knew all things, even spoke all the languages even as God does. They cannot sin anymore:

1 John 3:9 KJV
[9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Only those who were so baptized with the Spirit could enter the kingdom of heaven. Jesus said that Kingdom will come while some of them were still alive, in their generation.

Matthew 16:27-28 KJV
[27] For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. [28] Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

We claim to be born again or baptized with the Spirit but have not the power or the sinlessness that goes with it. We deny that Jesus fulfilled his promise to return in that generation. We are trying to obey all the commandments but never become truly Christlike. We are all blind, and may continually discuss and argue until we die. In the next life, we will all see the truth. But even in this life, we could see the truth if we let the light of the Messiah's words guide us into it.

God bless!

I should have added, so as not to confuse. No one can be a christian unless the holy spirit dwells in them. But the baptism( or filling) of the holy spirit is a separate event. You dont have to receive this baptism to be a believer
In acts ch8 people in Samaria became believers/ christians therefore the holy spirit entered there life, but they did not receive the filling( or baptism) of the holy spirit until peter and john went to Samaria a short time later

 

[Fred Manalo]

I should have added, so as not to confuse. No one can be a christian unless the holy spirit dwells in them. But the baptism( or filling) of the holy spirit is a separate event. You dont have to receive this baptism to be a believer
In acts ch8 people in Samaria became believers/ christians therefore the holy spirit entered there life, but they did not receive the filling( or baptism) of the holy spirit until peter and john went to Samaria a short time later

The same with the twelve disciples. Even though they repented and were baptized with water and believed and followed the Messiah, the baptism of the Spirit happened three years later. Jesus first taught and trained them how to be truly righteous, grew their faith by doing all his miracles in their presence, etc., then filled or baptized them with the Holy Spirit.

 

[stuart lawrence]

The same with the twelve disciples. Even though they repented and were baptized with water and believed and followed the Messiah, the baptism of the Spirit happened three years later. Jesus first taught and trained them how to be truly righteous, grew their faith by doing all his miracles in their presence, etc., then filled or baptized them with the Holy Spirit.

Under the new covenant we can immediately receive the baptism of the Spirit cant we:
Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law or believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After begining with the Spirit are you now trying to attain yout goal by human effort?
Gal3:3

Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard? Gal3:5

Cornelius and his household are also a good example of this. They accepted the message Peter preached to them and immediatley they were filled with the Holy Spirit as the disciples were at Pentecost and spoke in tongues

 

[BobRyan]

Under the new covenant we can immediately receive the baptism of the Spirit cant we:
Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law or believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After begining with the Spirit are you now trying to attain yout goal by human effort?
Gal3:3

The Holy Spirit writes the LAW of God on the heart under the NEW Covenant - Jeremiah 31:31-33.

That means that born-again Christians not only 'should not' take God's name in vain - but in fact it would be a sin to do so even in the NT - "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4

 

[stuart lawrence]

The Holy Spirit writes the LAW of God on the heart under the NEW Covenant - Jeremiah 31:31-33.

That means that born-again Christians not only 'should not' take God's name in vain - but in fact it would be a sin to do so even in the NT - "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4

So in your view, if it is written on the mind and placed on the heart of the believer not to take the Lords name in vain, how would you explain someone who professed to be a Christian taking the Lords name in vain, unaware they are breaking the law placed within them by doing so?

Why are they not conscious of their sin?

 

[BobRyan]

So in your view, if it is written on the mind and placed on the heart of the believer not to take the Lords name in vain, how would you explain someone who professed to be a Christian taking the Lords name in vain, unaware they are breaking the law placed within them by doing so?

Why are they not conscious of their sin?

John 16
“All this I have told you so that you will not fall away. 2 They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God.

You and I both know that our Catholic friends pray to the dead - bow down before images, promise to serve what 1 Thess 4 calls "the dead in Christ" - (those the images represent)...... but do not claim that they do not Love God and do not claim that this is in violation to the Law of God.

James 4:17 "To him that knows to do right - and does it not - to him it is sin"

 

[rturner76]

You and I both know that our Catholic friends pray to the dead - bow down before images, promise to serve them... but do not claim that they do not Love God and do not claim that this is in violation to the Law of God.

This is a lie. No Catholic prays to the dead, that is a falsehood. Please do not bear false witness against others who call themselves Christians and no Catholic believes these statues hold or have any power or contain any spirit. God has ordained the use of images on occasion in the use of the serpent in the desert and the cherubim on the arc of the covenant. The use of images was approved for the respectful veneration of the saints and not for worship. Saying that Catholics worship and serve these images is a falsehood and bearing false witness. However I know the Adventists will continue to spread this lie only serving to discredit themselves

 

[stuart lawrence]

John 16
“All this I have told you so that you will not fall away. 2 They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God.

You and I both know that our Catholic friends pray to the dead - bow down before images, promise to serve them... but do not claim that they do not Love God and do not claim that this is in violation to the Law of God.

James 4:17 "To him that knows to do right - and does it not - to him it is sin"

I wonder why you didn't want to answer the question.
I mean, if something is in your mind you in your mind must know what that something is
And if something is in your heart, you un your heart must know what that something is.
BTW

Concerning James 4:17

Are you saying if the law is written on your mind and placed on your heart you know what that law is so you know what you must do, there is no excuse for not doing it?

Will you answer?

Well you cant can you!

 

[stuart lawrence]

This is a lie. No Catholic prays to the dead, that is a falsehood. Please do not bear false witness against others who call themselves Christians and no Catholic believes these statues hold or have any power or contain any spirit. God has ordained the use of images on occasion in the use of the serpent in the desert and the cherubim on the arc of the covenant. The use of images was approved for the respectful veneration of the saints and not for worship. Saying that Catholics worship and serve these images is a falsehood and bearing false witness. However I know the Adventists will continue to spread this lie only serving to discredit themselves

The reason he wrote what he did concerning Catholics is because sda believe you don't have to be aware of the law written on your mind and placed on your heart. A ridiculous belief of course, but they have to try and justify it, otherwise they have to say no one can be a christian unless they observe a set seventh day sabbath and they are not prepared to go that far

 

[BobRyan]

So in your view, if it is written on the mind and placed on the heart of the believer not to take the Lords name in vain, how would you explain someone who professed to be a Christian taking the Lords name in vain, unaware they are breaking the law placed within them by doing so?

Why are they not conscious of their sin?

John 16
“All this I have told you so that you will not fall away. 2 They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God.

You and I both know that our Catholic friends pray to the dead - bow down before images, promise to serve what 1Thess 4 calls "the dead in Christ" - (those the images represent)... but do not claim that they do not Love God and do not claim that this is in violation to the Law of God.

James 4:17 "To him that knows to do right - and does it not - to him it is sin"

This is a lie. No Catholic prays to the dead, that is a falsehood. Please do not bear false witness against others who call themselves Christians and no Catholic believes these statues hold or have any power or contain any spirit.

No one is claiming that Catholics believe that statues or images - wood and stone have any power or that they contain a spirit in them. Neither do Hindus claim such a thing.

But the RCC does have this -

"958 Communion with the dead."
Catechism of the Catholic Church - The Communion of Saints

And my point -- which I think we all know full well -- is that Protestants totally reject this idea of " 958 Communion with the dead. ".

Another thing we all know is that 1 Thess 4 describes the dead saints as "The Dead in Christ". - And we both know that all Protestants know what 1 Thess 4 says. My point was not to debate who was/is right in that difference - just to admit to the difference.

1 Thess 4
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.


My point was not to debate Paul - or to debate this Bible statement or to debate Catholics.

My point was that all of us can see that Protestants typically do not accept the idea of "Communion with the Dead".

God has ordained the use of images on occasion in the use of the serpent in the desert and the cherubim on the arc of the covenant.

In neither of those cases do they bow down to and promise to serve the one that is represented by the image of an angel or the image of a snake.

The use of images was approved for the respectful veneration of the saints and not for worship. Saying that Catholics worship and serve these images is a falsehood and bearing false witness.

It is a falsehood to say that I claim that Catholics "serve images" I never say that.

And have not said it here.

I used the pronoun "them" to refer to what 1Thess 4 calls the "dead in Christ". For the sake of clarity I have edited the post to make it clear.

It now says:

Catholic friends pray to the dead - bow down before images, promise to serve what 1Thess 4 calls "the dead in Christ" - (those the images represent)

Instead of just saying "Them".

Neither Catholics nor Hindus claim to serve or pray to the wood or the stone.


And I am sure you and I both agree that the RCC teaches this --

"958 Communion with the dead."
Catechism of the Catholic Church - The Communion of Saints

Just as we probably agree that Protestants do not go for that.

Details matter when accusing others -- as it turns out.

 

[BobRyan]

Here is your own "Catholic Digest" discussing that same topic.

Cath Digest 9/1993 pg 129

Question:

“My husband has been transferred to Japan and we have been here in Hiroshima for about two months. On a site seeing tour the Japanese guide brought me to a Buddhist shrine. There were statues of Buddha everywhere. The guide told me they represented different aspects of life and that the people offer food to the Buddhas and ask for Favors. It made me think of Our Catholic praying to the saints and wonder whether they have anything like the Ten Commandments to guide them.


There were fountains at the gate where pious visitors washed their hands before entering the shrine grounds. Could this be the same as our holy water?”



Ans:

“Very probably the physical washing signifies some kind of spiritual cleansing, AS it does with Us! Some Muslims say prayers on rosarylike beads Just as We do, so there is no copyright enforced on prayerful customs among the great world religions. The Pagan Romans prayed, each family to its Own household gods, JUST as we do to our patron saints. In Old Testament times the gentile had local gods for their town or country, and our Christian Saints eventually supplanted Them!


The Hebrews, of Course, had the mission of Wiping Out such heathen worship with the worship of the one true God, and while they have always had great respect for spiritual heroes, they Never set up any of their own race as substitutes for the local pagan gods!!


They had no need to make distinctions between praying TO the saints for their intercession with god and total adoration of God as the source of everything, as we must!

I cite this difference with Stuart because I am pretty sure he too has enough protestant inclination still in him to know that he does not agree with "Communion with the Dead" just as many other Protestants oppose it.

Yet we do not claim that Catholics think they are doing wrong in that act of worship/veneration. That was my whole point.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Here is your own "Catholic Digest" discussing that same topic.





I cite this difference with Stuart because I am pretty sure he too has enough protestant inclination still in him to know that he does not agree with "Communion with the Dead" just as many other Protestants oppose it.

Yet we do not claim that Catholics think they are doing wrong in that act of worship/veneration. That was my whole point.

Your point was to deflect from answering the question for you cannot answer it

Lord save us from latter day religions that believe only they follow fully the truth

 

[stuart lawrence]

So sda believe you don't have to be aware of Gods laws placed within you
A licence to sin if ever there was one

 

[BobRyan]

Your point was to deflect from answering the question for you cannot answer it

Yet another factless false accusation?

Lord save us from latter day roll-your-own rogue elements that believe only they follow fully their emotions as others must.

 

[BobRyan]

So sda believe you don't have to be aware of Gods laws placed within you
A licence to sin if ever there was one

Your efforts at "making stuff up" noted.

Why not respond to the points made "from the text" -- "instead"?

Still waiting...

 

[stuart lawrence]

Yet another factless false accusation?

Lord save us from latter day roll-your-own rogue elements that believe only they follow fully their emotions as others must.

You keep deflecting Bob, I understand, nothing else you can do is thete

 

[stuart lawrence]

Your efforts at "making stuff up" noted.

Why not respond to the points made "from the text" -- "instead"?

Still waiting...

Well if i am making it up, please confirm a christian must be aware of what the law is that is written on their mind and placed on their heart.

Will you?

I remind you, you started This conversation with a post to me. I agreed with your post. I then asked you a question concerning I and all I've had since is deflection, deflection, deflection