Col 2 condemns commandments of men - not commandments of God

[BobRyan]

The Ten Commandments was given to Israel which was only till the seed should come which was Jesus.

Is this your claim each time someone reminds you that the Ten Commandments say we should not take God's name in vain and that they also provide the 5th commandment as the "First Commandment with a promise" Ephesians 6:2 -- ????

Here again I urge you to come up with a form of speculation that at the very least is not refuted by your own pro-Sunday scholars.

The word commemorate for creation is not in there in Exodus 20:11.

hint: "Remember the Sabbath day ... for IN SIX DAYS the LORD MADE...and rested the seventh day THEREFORE the LORD BLESSED the Sabbath day and MADE it holy".

Did you think we simply "would not notice"???

Please be serious.

It is in Deuteronomy 5:15 in context of coming out of Egypt which was before Sinai.

Hint: so is the command to "Not take God's name in vain" in Exodus 20.

Ex 20:
2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
...
7 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain


Every sideways excuse you are trying to find against the Word of God in Exodus 20 not only does not work in the Bible - but even your own pro-sunday scholars refute what you are doing.

Did you think we simply "would not notice"???

Jerry I urge you to please be serious about this subject -- it is not just an academic exercise for you to try out every short-lived opposition you can come up with in contrast to the Commandments spoken by God.

There are a great many places where the pro-Sunday group is opposing the pro-Bible-Sabbath group taking positions that are not quite as short-lived as the ones you are trying out here. Why not go for something that has more substance when compared to the Bible?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[jerry kelso]

Is this your claim each time someone reminds you that the Ten Commandments say we should not take God's name in vain and that they also provide the 5th commandment as the "First Commandment with a promise" Ephesians 6:2 -- ????

Here again I urge you to come up with a form of speculation that at the very least is not refuted by your own pro-Sunday scholars.



hint: "Remember the Sabbath day ... for IN SIX DAYS the LORD MADE...and rested the seventh day THEREFORE the LORD BLESSED the Sabbath day and MADE it holy".

Did you think we simply "would not notice"???

Please be serious.



Hint: so is the command to "Not take God's name in vain" in Exodus 20.

Ex 20:
2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
...
7 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain


Every sideways excuse you are trying to find against the Word of God in Exodus 20 not only does not work in the Bible - but even your own pro-sunday scholars refute what you are doing.

Did you think we simply "would not notice"???

Jerry I urge you to please be serious about this subject -- it is not just an academic exercise for you to try out every short-lived opposition you can come up with in contrast to the Commandments spoken by God.

There are a great many places where the pro-Sunday group is opposing the pro-Bible-Sabbath group taking positions that are not quite as short-lived as the ones you are trying out here. Why not go for something that has more substance when compared to the Bible?

in Christ,

Bob

bobryan,

1. I believe that the moral laws of the Ten Commandments are in the New Covenant and are just as valid today just as much as they were in the age of the Mosaic law which was the Old covenant which was set aside so the New Covenant could take its place.
We both agree they are valid.
We also believe that they mean they mean what they say. We are not to kill as in murder, not to steal, bear false witness, not to take the Lord's name in vain, remember the sabbath day to keep I think holy, etc.
Under the law of Moses a specific judgement was attached. The commandment was mandatory and if broken the judgment was to be given. For breaking the sabbath you could be killed. For committing adultery stoning etc,
You know these judgements were true and you know that we don't have these specific judgements.

2. I already told you if they say what you say they believe they are wrong, period.
If you misunderstand them you are wrong.
If you agree with them if they are wrong.

3. I am very serious that you are not being fair in exegesis.

4. I proved by scripture on using your scriptures and my scriptures to show the truth. You misunderstand whether on purpose or not.

5. I showed you by scripture that the sabbath with the specific judgements and the specific day that were mandatory was made exclusively with the Jews for perpetual generations forever. This context was not promised to the church age.
We have those moral laws and they have the same meaning. We do not have the judgements. We do not have the same day because of the Old Testament shadow of the firstfruits of the resurrection.
There is no benefit in any one day over the other physically or spiritually.
Paul said we are set in heavenly places and there is no mention of being blessed more on the sabbath.

6. I have more substance than you because I believe in true context and proper reconciling of the scriptures and the proper understanding of specific rules in each covenant and how they are separate and how they contain many same things, similar things different things, and different things with a different context etc.
The only one mixing things is you by not understanding why the Mosaic law and the New covenant are two different contexts.
Your law of God or universal law or whatever is the royal law according to James are the moral laws which are in every age and forever. They are right within themselves.

7. The only reason the true view of the scripture that I have shown will be short lived here is because you believe in the 7th day Adventist doctrine and through those type of hermeneutics and I believe in proper exegesis and context through studying not because my church believes it or because I believe in their hermeneutics. Jerry kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

Why is the word Sabbath used in many languages around the world, some ancient, for the 7th day? How would all these cultures know to name their 7th day a day of rest if it was not generally known throughout the world and not just the Jews? Do you suppose the Israelites were that highly regarded by all these cultures that they named the 7th day the Sabbath, meant only for the Jews as you contend?

Instead of debating exegesis let try some commonsensegesis...

eastcoastremnant,

1. The seventh was for God and the sabbath for man.

2. The seventh day was never called the sabbath in the time of creation. It was a day of rest.
The seventh day is not called the sabbath til Exodus 16:29-30which was before the Ten Commandments in Exodus 20:11.
I don't care if you call it creation sabbath the fact remains that it wasn't given to men until the Jewish nation came out of Egypt and Deuteronomy 5:15 says it was to commemorate the Red Sea Deliverance.
It was given to Israel for perpetual generations in the context of Moses law not the new covenant commandments.
Those Jews had to those commandments or else suffer the judgement. In the case of the sabbath the judgement was death if you broke it.
The meaning of the moral laws were the same before, during, and after the law of Moses, but not the judgements.
Until, one understands the full context of the weakness of the law of Moses and the better promises of the new covenant and understand they are two different contexts with some same things and some different things etc, that deal with how the law really worked in that day and age one will always stay confused.

3. The Old covenant was replaced by the new covenant and that includes the sabbath with judgement of death.

4. Christ was in the grave on the sabbath and arose on the firstfruits of the resurrection which was an Old Testament shadow and why Sunday would be more fitting for the sabbath in the church age biblically speaking because it is the rest that was prophesied to come. Read Hebrews 3 of entering into God's rest which Israel didn't you in Christ time but we can.
Paul said we are set in heavenly places and because of his finished work we can benefit and be blessed as good on any given day. Jerry kelso

 

[BobRyan]

bobryan,

1. I believe that the moral laws of the Ten Commandments are in the New Covenant and are just as valid today just as much as they were in the age of the Mosaic law which was the Old covenant

Good news!

So then you accept - rather than reject - the teaching of Christ in Mark 7:6-13?



Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

James 2
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well;
9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by THE Law as transgressors.
10 For whoever shall keep the whole Law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of THE Law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

It based on "He who said"


Eph 6:2
2 “Honor your father and mother,” which is the first commandment with promise:

Ten Commandments spoken by Christ at Sinai - Ex 20. Heb 8:6-10

which was set aside so the New Covenant could take its place.

"I believe that the moral laws of the Ten Commandments are in the New Covenant and are just as valid today just as much as they were ...which was set aside so the New Covenant could take its place" -- probably the most self-conflicted statement ever posted on this board. ARE you SURE you want to fall on your sword over that one??

And someone forgot to tell Christ about it - in Mark 7? Really?

"THIS Gospel of the kingdom preached in all the world - and THEN shall the end come" Matt 24 - and you claim Christ was preaching the "wrong gospel"???

We both agree they are valid.
We also believe that they mean they mean what they say. We are not to kill as in murder, not to steal, bear false witness, not to take the Lord's name in vain, remember the sabbath day to keep I think holy, etc.
Under the law of Moses a specific judgement was attached. The commandment was mandatory and if broken the judgment was to be given. For breaking the sabbath you could be killed

You are conflating the civil laws and penalties under the theocracy in the OT - with the moral law of God "AS IF" to end the theocracy is to make it ok today to "take God's name in vain" -- which as we both know --- is utter nonsense.

Even your own pro-Sunday scholars point out this Bible detail instead of falling into that dead-end idea.

 

[BobRyan]

4. Christ was in the grave on the sabbath and arose on the firstfruits of the resurrection which was an Old Testament shadow and why Sunday would be more fitting for the sabbath in the church age

Only if "making stuff up" was a valid substitute for the Bible.

== notice the "details" ---

Catholic answers - address this question about "changing" the Sabbath from one day to another.

"Seventh-day Adventists insist that the Catholic Church has no scriptural warrant for changing the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. Is this true?"
http://www.catholic.com/quickquesti...im-that-the-sabbath-shouldnt-have-been-change

Catholic Answers sets the record straight with some wishful thinking added in at the last?

"While it is true that there is no New Testament record of a voice from the heavens instructing the infant Church, "Thou shalt change the day of thy worship and rest from Saturday to Sunday," Adventists are mistaken in their belief that there is no New Testament evidence that supports such a change by the Catholic Church. Quite apart from the biblical proof of the apostolic Church’s authority to teach in God’s name (Mt 16:18–19, 18:17–18, Lk 10:16) and of God’s guarantee that this teaching would never fall into error (Mt 28:19–20, Lk 22:32, Jn 16:13), there is an impressive amount of evidence from Scripture that Christ and the apostles changed their day of corporate worship from Saturday to Sunday."

(that quote was also from the same link as posted above)

They "of course" fail to find even ONE text saying

"from week day one to week-day one shall all mankind come before Me to worship" as we have in Is 66:23 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath.

"Week-day one was made for mankind.. the Son of man is LORD of week day 1" as we have in Mark 2:27-28 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath

"Remember week-day-1 to keep it holy" as we have in Ex 20:8 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath

"week day 1 is the Holy day of the Lord" as we have in Isaiah 58:13 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath

"the next week day 1 - nearly the entire town came together to hear Gospel preaching" as we have in Acts 13 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath.

"they kept asking that the Gospel be presented to them again on the next week day 1" as we have in Acts 13 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath

" 4 And he was reasoning in the synagogue every week day 1 and trying to persuade Jews and Greeks." as we have in Acts 18:4 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath

"the first day is the Lord's day" as we have for the Bible Sabbath in Ex 20:10 and in Is 58:13.

Recall that the "Sabbath" designation for the Bible 7th day Sabbath is often found in the NT. But not once do we find "Lord's day" for week-day-1 or "the new Christian Sabbath" as the term for week-day-1 in the NT.

Sooooo - -lacking all of that "actual evidence".

The link above will simply have to "settle" for some hope of finding a hint that maybe an event EVER happened on week-day-1 and was a worship service. The search is on at that site to find such evidence!

The fact that they did claim to make such a change is not only supported by the "Catholic Answers" article - but also discussed on this thread starting here --
Apr 8, 2015 #1

hence this list of documented historic claims for that change.

we have Catholic Documents -- admitting that as given in the Bible the term "Lord's Day" refers to the Bible Sabbath - the 7th Day and not week-day-1.

The argument is not that the term "Lord's Day" does not exist in the Bible -- rather the argument is that the NT first century writers never say it is week-day-1 even though numerous times in the NT text - week-day-1 is mentioned.

But the Bible calls the 7th day the "Holy Day of the LORD" and calls it Sabbath in BOTH the OT AND the NT

here is another Catholic document that mentions the "Lord's Day"

The Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II - argues the SAME two points.

1965 -- first published 1959

(from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church

========================================

and still another Catholic document


======================================
Convert's Catechism
Full text of "The convert's catechism of Catholic doctrine"

3. The Third Commandment.

Q. What is the Third Commandment?

A. The Third Commandment is: Remember

that thou keep holy the Sabbath day.

---------------------------50

Q. Which is the Sabbath day ?

A. Saturday is the Sabbath day.

Q. Why do we observe Sunday instead of Satur-
day ?

A. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday be-
cause the Catholic Church, in the Council of
Laodicea (A.D. 336), transferred the solemnity
from Saturday to Sunday.

Q. Why did the Catholic Church substitute
Sunday for Saturday?

A. The Church substituted Sunday for Satur-
day, because Christ rose from the dead on a Sun-
day, and the Holy Ghost descended upon the Apos-
tles on a Sunday.

Q. By what authority did the Church substitute
Sunday for Saturday?

A. The Church substituted Sunday for Satur-
day by the plenitude of that divine power which
Jesus Christ bestowed upon her.

Q. What does the Third Commandment com-
mand?

A. The Third Commandment commands us to
sanctify Sunday as the Lord's Day.

--------------------------===================================================



Indeed - Acts 20 says that a one-time event happened on week-day-1 (again not calling it "the Lord's Day" so as not to confuse the reader). The "excuse"/reason given for this one-time event was that Paul was leaving the next day -- according to the text itself.

meanwhile - here is the actual Bible.

"the Son of man is LORD of the Sabbath" Mark 2:28.
Is 58:13 - the Sabbath "is the Holy Day of the LORD"
"The seventh day is the Sabbath of LORD thy God" Ex 20:10

Indeed - in Rev 1 there is no "week day 1 is the Lord's Day"... But the NT reader does have these texts to guide them.


With proof posted many places on other threads -- including
Oct 3, 2015 #387

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

eastcoastremnant,

1. The seventh was for God and the sabbath for man.

Is that why the creation story was referenced in Exodus 20?

2. The seventh day was never called the sabbath in the time of creation. It was a day of rest.

In case you didn't know, the word Sabbath means rest... the two are synonymous.

The seventh day is not called the sabbath til Exodus 16:29-30which was before the Ten Commandments in Exodus 20:11.
I don't care if you call it creation sabbath the fact remains that it wasn't given to men until the Jewish nation came out of Egypt and Deuteronomy 5:15 says it was to commemorate the Red Sea Deliverance.

Not true, Adam and Eve were witness to God Sanctifying and Hallowing the 7th day and since Jesus said that the Sabbath (day of rest) was made for man, it was given to Adam and Eve.

The meaning of the moral laws were the same before, during, and after the law of Moses, but not the judgements.
Until, one understands the full context of the weakness of the law of Moses and the better promises of the new covenant and understand they are two different contexts with some same things and some different things etc, that deal with how the law really worked in that day and age one will always stay confused.

The difference is that we now have thew Holy Spirit to convict us in our hearts of our transgression, in letter and spirit. The Israelites only had the external to convict them. The new covenant was for the houses of Israel and Judah, which the Decalogue was given for a perpetual covenant. Our understanding was increased through the new covenant not the Law changed.

 

[jerry kelso]

Good news!

So then you accept - rather than reject - the teaching of Christ in Mark 7:6-13?



Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

James 2
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well;
9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by THE Law as transgressors.
10 For whoever shall keep the whole Law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of THE Law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

It based on "He who said"


Eph 6:2
2 “Honor your father and mother,” which is the first commandment with promise:

Ten Commandments spoken by Christ at Sinai - Ex 20. Heb 8:6-10



"I believe that the moral laws of the Ten Commandments are in the New Covenant and are just as valid today just as much as they were ...which was set aside so the New Covenant could take its place" -- probably the most self-conflicted statement ever posted on this board. ARE you SURE you want to fall on your sword over that one??

And someone forgot to tell Christ about it - in Mark 7? Really?

"THIS Gospel of the kingdom preached in all the world - and THEN shall the end come" Matt 24 - and you claim Christ was preaching the "wrong gospel"???





You are conflating the civil laws and penalties under the theocracy in the OT - with the moral law of God "AS IF" to end the theocracy is to make it ok today to "take God's name in vain" -- which as we both know --- is utter nonsense.

Even your own pro-Sunday scholars point out this Bible detail instead of falling into that dead-end idea.

bobryan,

1. Are you that ignorant or are you that desperate to save your manmade doctrine?

2. Who is my pro-Sunday scholars?
You act like I follow them like I'm married to every jot and tittle they say and like I can't think on my own to see the truth. You in turn are hooked into denominational doctrine and obviously are afraid to think and say anything separate from what the believe to be true.

3. Conflating civil laws and penalties? That is downright stupid when they are in direct connection to the commandment right then and there.

4. The law of Moses was one whole context and if you sinned in one you sinned in all.
The new covenant is one whole context separate from the Old covenant and that is why the new replaced the old.
So quit insulting God's intelligence of the truth of his word which I have showed you and quit spinning on what I say and make it sound like I am saying something I am not. Being truthful is obviously not a virtue with you on this subject, but opinion is more your forte. Jerry kelso

 

[BobRyan]

bobryan,

1. I believe that the moral laws of the Ten Commandments are in the New Covenant and are just as valid today just as much as they were in the age of the Mosaic law which was the Old covenant

Good news!

So then you accept - rather than reject - the teaching of Christ in Mark 7:6-13?



Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

James 2
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well;
9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by THE Law as transgressors.
10 For whoever shall keep the whole Law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of THE Law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

It based on "He who said"


Eph 6:2
2 “Honor your father and mother,” which is the first commandment with promise:

Ten Commandments spoken by Christ at Sinai - Ex 20. Heb 8:6-10

bobryan,

1. Are you that ignorant or are you that desperate to save your manmade doctrine?

Jerry - you can do better than that. Don't let your determined opposition to scripture side track from the good start you were making at the start of your post.

 

[BobRyan]

2. Who is my pro-Sunday scholars?
You act like I follow them like I'm married to every jot and tittle they say and like I can't think on my own to see the truth.

Nice "story" - but in fact I simply point out that while I am pro-Bible-Sabbath the pro-sunday scholars are not. They join you in opposing at some level God's Bible Sabbath.

So when even THEY comment that the position you take is short-on-answers and long on defects -- perhaps you should listen -- after all you need a Bible-based answer that will at the very list pass the "sola scriptura" review of your own side of this issue.

Just stating the obvious at this point.

 

[BobRyan]

bobryan,
We both agree they are valid.
We also believe that they mean they mean what they say. We are not to kill as in murder, not to steal, bear false witness, not to take the Lord's name in vain, remember the sabbath day to keep I think holy, etc.
Under the law of Moses a specific judgement was attached. The commandment was mandatory and if broken the judgment was to be given. For breaking the sabbath you could be killed

You are conflating the civil laws and penalties under the theocracy in the OT - with the moral law of God "AS IF" to end the theocracy is to make it ok today to "take God's name in vain" -- which as we both know --- is utter nonsense.

Even your own pro-Sunday scholars point out this Bible detail instead of falling into that dead-end idea.

3. Conflating civil laws and penalties? That is downright stupid when they are in direct connection to the commandment right then and there.

You are conflating the civil laws and penalties under the theocracy in the OT - with the moral law of God "AS IF" to end the theocracy is to make it ok today to "take God's name in vain" -- which as we both know --- is utter nonsense.

As even your own pro-Sunday scholars admit. In other words even those who reject the Bible-Sabbath admit you are in error on that flawed conflation. You seem to be hard put to come up with a Bible-Sabbath-attacking POV that does not attack your own Sunday-keeping group where they accept key Bible details you turn a blind-eye to!!

notice that even they know enough Bible to not fall on their sword over the myth that civil and moral law are the exact same thing in either OT or NT.

as we will soon see an example of here -

Civil law - vs - moral law -- admitted to by pro-Sunday groups not just the Bible and pro-Bible-Sabbath groups.
http://www.reformed.org/documents/w...l?body=/documents/wcf_with_proofs/ch_XIX.html
link to - Westminster Confession of Faith Section 19

"Westminster Confession of Faith"

Chapter XIX
Of the Law of God​

I. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which He bound him and all his posterity, to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience, promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it, and endued him with power and ability to keep it.

II. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables: the first four commandments containing our duty towards God; and the other six, our duty to man.
III. Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, His graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits;l and partly, holding forth divers instructions of moral duties. All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament

IV. To them also, as a body politic, He gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the State of that people; not obliging under any now, further than the general equity thereof may require.

V. The moral law does forever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof; and that, not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it. Neither does Christ, in the Gospel, any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.
VI. Although true believers be not under the law, as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified, or condemned; yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life informing them of the will of God, and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts and lives; so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin, together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of His obedience It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin: and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve; and what afflictions, in this life, they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law The promises of it, in like manner, show them God's approbation of obedience,and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof: although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works. So as, a man's doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourages to the one and deters from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law: and not under grace

VII. Neither are the forementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but do sweetly comply with it; the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely, and cheerfully, which the will of God, revealed in the law, requires to be done.

​

And also here

Civil law - vs - moral law -- admitted to by pro-Sunday groups not just the Bible and pro-Bible-Sabbath groups.


The Baptist Confession of Faith - section 19 almost identical to the Westminster section 19 quoted above.

Notice how they both fit that 7 point summary already posted on page 1?

Baptist Confession of Faith Section 19

Section 19:

C.H. Spurgeon's edition of the "Baptist Confession of Faith"
-- CH Spurgeon

The Perpetuity of the Law of God

Very great mistakes have been made about the law. Not long ago there were those about us who affirmed that the law is utterly abrogated and abolished, and they openly taught that believers were not bound to make the moral law the rule of their lives. What would have been sin in other men they counted to be no sin in themselves. From such Antinomianism as that may God deliver us. We are not under the law as the method of salvation, but we delight to see the law in the hand of Christ, and desire to obey the Lord in all things. Others have been met with who have taught that Jesus mitigated and softened down the law, and they have in effect said that the perfect law of God was too hard for imperfect beings, and therefore God has given us a milder and easier rule. These tread dangerously upon the verge of terrible error, although we believe that they are little aware of it.

Section 19 of the "Baptist Confession of Faith" .

Section 19
. The Law of God

• God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.

• The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the TEN COMMANDMENTS, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.

• Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away. ​

• To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.

The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it __________________​

 

[BobRyan]

Civil law - vs - moral law -- admitted to by pro-Sunday groups not just the Bible and pro-Bible-Sabbath groups.


The Baptist Confession of Faith - section 19 almost identical to the Westminster section 19 quoted above.

Notice how they both fit that 7 point summary already posted on page 1?

Baptist Confession of Faith Section 19

Section 19:

C.H. Spurgeon's edition of the "Baptist Confession of Faith"
-- CH Spurgeon

The Perpetuity of the Law of God

Very great mistakes have been made about the law. Not long ago there were those about us who affirmed that the law is utterly abrogated and abolished, and they openly taught that believers were not bound to make the moral law the rule of their lives. What would have been sin in other men they counted to be no sin in themselves. From such Antinomianism as that may God deliver us. We are not under the law as the method of salvation, but we delight to see the law in the hand of Christ, and desire to obey the Lord in all things. Others have been met with who have taught that Jesus mitigated and softened down the law, and they have in effect said that the perfect law of God was too hard for imperfect beings, and therefore God has given us a milder and easier rule. These tread dangerously upon the verge of terrible error, although we believe that they are little aware of it.

Section 19 of the "Baptist Confession of Faith" .

Section 19
. The Law of God

• God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.

• The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the TEN COMMANDMENTS, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.

• Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away. ​

• To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.

The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it __________________​

 

[BobRyan]

Civil law - vs - moral law -- admitted to by pro-Sunday groups not just the Bible and pro-Bible-Sabbath groups.

Westminster Confession of Faith Section 19

"Westminster Confession of Faith"

Chapter XIX
Of the Law of God​

I. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which He bound him and all his posterity, to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience, promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it, and endued him with power and ability to keep it.

II. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables: the first four commandments containing our duty towards God; and the other six, our duty to man.
III. Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, His graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits;l and partly, holding forth divers instructions of moral duties. All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament

IV. To them also, as a body politic, He gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the State of that people; not obliging under any now, further than the general equity thereof may require.

V. The moral law does forever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof; and that, not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it. Neither does Christ, in the Gospel, any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.
VI. Although true believers be not under the law, as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified, or condemned; yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life informing them of the will of God, and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts and lives; so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin, together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of His obedience It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin: and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve; and what afflictions, in this life, they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law The promises of it, in like manner, show them God's approbation of obedience,and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof: although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works. So as, a man's doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourages to the one and deters from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law: and not under grace

VII. Neither are the forementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but do sweetly comply with it; the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely, and cheerfully, which the will of God, revealed in the law, requires to be done.

​

 

[jerry kelso]

Is that why the creation story was referenced in Exodus 20?



In case you didn't know, the word Sabbath means rest... the two are synonymous.



Not true, Adam and Eve were witness to God Sanctifying and Hallowing the 7th day and since Jesus said that the Sabbath (day of rest) was made for man, it was given to Adam and Eve.




The difference is that we now have thew Holy Spirit to convict us in our hearts of our transgression, in letter and spirit. The Israelites only had the external to convict them. The new covenant was for the houses of Israel and Judah, which the Decalogue was given for a perpetual covenant. Our understanding was increased through the new covenant not the Law changed.

eastcoastremnant,

1. Adam and Eve being witnesses of God resting is not the same God giving to man the sabbath of rest to do.

2. I already said the creation Seventh day was a shadow of the sabbath for men which was to the Jews. This is why the seventh day is used for the creation not sabbath in Exodus 16:29-30 and Exodus 20:11.
Both days were sanctified and blessed but in Exodus 20:11 the seventh day is the creation and the sabbath is the Ten Commandments for the sabbath was "GIVEN" to man to Israel not at creation.

3. The Old and new covenants are two separate and different covenants and two different contexts.
All the commandments were laws with penalties if it was broken.
The moral laws are still in effect under the new covenant but no same specific penaties as the Old covenant which were a part of the civil law.
The sabbath was a ceremonial law because of being commemorated by the Red Sea Deliverance. Deuteronomy 5:15 and a type and shadow of the future of rest in Christ and in eternity. Hebrews 4:1-11; 10:1; Colossians 2:14-17.

4. Don't you understand the firstfruits of the resurrection which was on Sunday and gives the freedom and right to keep the sabbath on any day?
The Bible doesn't say that the Lord's day is the seventh day or the old Jewish sabbath or in context of anything.
Any day can be observed as sabbath for the new covenant believer. ( Roman's 14:5-6; Galatians 4:9-10; Colossians 2:14-17).
We are blessed in heavenly places as a Christian so what can you be blessed with physically and spiritually on one day over another? Jerry kelso

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

You know these judgements were true and you know that we don't have these specific judgements.

These specific judgements are just as <true> for us, <we>, living in the Christian era as for those for whom they were true in the time before Christ. Only difference now, is, those in times past executed judgment in their own time, while God in these last days or in the last day, will execute judgment in his, own time.

If <<we have>> no judgement in the end, then you will be able to say <<we don't have these specific judgements>>. Unfortunately to then tell God, <We didn't have these specific judgements> will just let you land in deeper burning sulphur waters.

 

[jerry kelso]

These specific judgements are just as <true> for us, <we>, living in the Christian era as for those for whom they were true in the time before Christ. Only difference now, is, those in times past executed judgment in their own time, while God in these last days or in the last day, will execute judgment in his, own time.

If <<we have>> no judgement in the end, then you will be able to say <<we don't have these specific judgements>>. Unfortunately to then tell God, <We didn't have these specific judgements> will just let you land in deeper burning sulphur waters.

gerhard ebersoehn,

1. Do we have a mandatory commandment for adultery that has a judgement of stoning? No!
It doesn't mean we may not suffer some kind of correction. The Bible says God chastens his children and we can be forgiven. David was under the law of Moses was forgiven but suffered much with his child with Bathsheba dies and his older son hangs himself etc.

2. Judgement of sin will be for unbelievers concerning salvation etc.
not on the church.
The believer will be judged for how they built on the foundation of the church which doesn't effect salvation. Jerry kelso

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

We do not have the same day because of the Old Testament shadow of the firstfruits of the resurrection.

Emphasis in red is mine.

You hit the nail on the head. You drove in the last nail in the coffin of Sunday's sacredness; you sealed its grave and set the watch for its inevitable judgment and soon to come obliteration in the pit of no return.

By these lines you did!

 

[jerry kelso]

Nice "story" - but in fact I simply point out that while I am pro-Bible-Sabbath the pro-sunday scholars are not. They join you in opposing at some level God's Bible Sabbath.

So when even THEY comment that the position you take is short-on-answers and long on defects -- perhaps you should listen -- after all you need a Bible-based answer that will at the very list pass the "sola scriptura" review of your own side of this issue.

Just stating the obvious at this point.

bobryan

1. You need to listen to the truth of God's word.
You cannot rebut the creation Seventh day being a shadow of the sabbath to the Jews. This is why the seventh day is not called the sabbath in Genesis 2:2; Exodus 16:29-30; Exodus 20:11.
Deuteronomy 5:14-15 the seventh day is called the Sabbath of the Lord God not do any work etc. The word sabbath is used because it points to the fact of rest being given to man in the days of commemoration of coming out of Egypt not creation.
You can use the definition of Sabbath and rest with originating at creation but it wasn't given to man till after the Red Sea deliverance.
You can say it was made for man at creation because God had already ordained that before creation but it didn't come to fruition till Israel day and that is why creation's Seventh day or in your words sabbath was a shadow for man in the freeing from Israel.

2: You cannot refute the truth of the Jewish sabbath given to man and a shadow through the firstfruits of the resurrection which Christ arose on which was Sunday and gives freedom for any day to be observed as sabbath through the rest in Christ Jesus Christ and his finished work. Hebrews 1:11.
You are being legalistic not as much as in believing in it for yourself as a personal conviction but more in trying to say one is sinning if observing another day and saying it is a bible doctrine to legalistically belittle another Christian to the extreme is wrong and sinful.
You can believe this false doctrine because denominational strongholds or personal conviction and that is your right. You are wrong to claim it is a biblical doctrine and force it on people through the substance of that doctrine. Jerry kelso

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

jerry kelso said: ↑
bobryan,

1. I believe that the moral laws of the Ten Commandments are in the New Covenant and are just as valid today just as much as they were in the age of the Mosaic law which was the Old covenant

Good news!

It's not good news; it's plain sophistry.

 

[BobRyan]

bobryan

1. You need to listen to the truth of God's word.
You cannot rebut the creation Seventh day being a shadow of the sabbath to the Jews.

Jerry I think we can all agree that you were already shown - that God reminds us in Exodus 20:11 the Sabbath WAS made a holy day in Genesis 2:1-3

Hint - God already told you He did that very thing in Genesis 2 -- you can read his statement on Genesis 2 - in Exodus 20:11.

Let me show you ... "again".

8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Hint: Genesis 2:1-3 describes a SEVEN day - week not a SIX day week as your mythology/doctrine seems to imagine for us. Even your own pro-sunday scholars admit to this Bible detail.

Genesis 2:1-3
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.

2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

Ex 20
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Your "oh no he did not - certainly not in Genesis 2" complaint against the text - is little more than you using "you" as your reference text.

Even your own pro-sunday scholars refute you on that non-biblical speculation. If you are going to come to an SDA board area with "correction" you need to at the very least have a suggestion that is not fully debunked by your own pro-sunday scholars. Can't we all agree on at least that much?

Genesis 2:1-3
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.

2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

Ex 20
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Deuteronomy 5:14-15 the seventh day is called the Sabbath of the Lord God not do any work etc. The word sabbath is used because it points to the fact of rest being given to man in the days of commemoration of coming out of Egypt not creation.

Your "not creation" is you quoting you.

Let's review what GOD said at the very moment when you insist "NOT Creation"


Ex 20
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

 

[BobRyan]

You can say it was made for man at creation

True because CHRIST said it - not me.

"Sabbath was MADE for mankind and not MANKIND MADE for the Sabbath" Mark 2:27.

Speaking to the "making" of both - in Creation week. -- irrefutable.

2: You cannot refute the truth of the Jewish sabbath given to man

Jewish Sabbath given to mankind - in your own doctrine? Was all mankind at Sinai or do you also deny that part of scripture as well?

bobryan

2: You cannot refute the truth of the Jewish sabbath given to man and a shadow through the firstfruits of the resurrection which Christ arose on which was Sunday and gives freedom for any day to be observed as sabbath

Turns out your efforts to delete scripture do not work at that point.

God's Word: - "the 7th day is the Sabbath of the LORD Thy God"

Man made tradition: Jerry Kelso "Christ arose on which was Sunday and gives freedom for any day to be observed as sabbath"

trying to say one is sinning if observing another day and saying it is a bible doctrine

God's Word: - "the 7th day is the Sabbath of the LORD Thy God"

Man made tradition: Jerry Kelso "Christ arose on which was Sunday and gives freedom for any day to be observed as sabbath"

===

Genesis 2:1
By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

Ex 20
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

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