Announcement and discussion on dissenting theology

[Tallguy88]

There have been problems recently with fully dissenting theology (both Liberal- and Traditional-minded dissent) being promoted in OBOB. This will stop. We are not unsympathetic to those who wish to discuss such things among like-minded individuals, so we have decided to open up both The Lord's Table (Liberal Catholic forum) and Salt of the Earth (Traditionalist Catholic forum) to allow the discussion of fully dissenting theology. The specific edit to their Statements of purpose was the addition of this:

"This area allows for what would normally be considered by Rome dissent from the teachings the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. The limit on this would be where the conversation violates other CF rules. If you are looking for the Catholic area that posts in accordance with Rome please visit One Bread One Body"

Since we are giving this sort of this it's own area, we will be less sympathetic to it in OBOB.

I'm sure David has more to say, but that is the gist of the situation as I see it.

Members of SotE and TLT have been invited to participate in this discussion as full members, even though they may or may not be considered that for OBOB usually. This was done to avoid having three simultaneous conversations on the same topic.

 

[Tallguy88]

OP is now a real post instead of just a placeholder. Thread open.

 

[Davidnic]

Things like...how far can we go with Legitimate Killing, The balance between helping refugees and obligations to safety..ect...those are topics still good for OBOB. Those are debates on the application of teaching...not opposition to it. So keep in mind those kind of thing (of which there are many) are still ok.

But promoting that there is historically allowable women priests, the Pope might be in heresy, Vatican II is against teaching, Dogma can change in anything other than the approved understanding of that term...those things should go to the appropriate area.

 

[Davidnic]

Our hope is this makes OBOB a place for the expression of mainstream Catholic spirituality, teaching and fellowship while it also gives those who have concerns and want to discuss the other ends to have a wider ability to do that in their two areas.

All Catholics are welcome to participate in OBOB in union with Rome. We think with some exceptions this makes for clearer lines.

 

[thecolorsblend]

I think this makes sense considering three Catholic sub-forums is a bit unwieldy. Having one as a designated safe haven broadens the possibilities for the other two.

For example, liberal Catholics will dissent from Rome on a host of issues. They now have a platform for doing so... and others can engage them on their views while still being within the parameters of the rules. Same thing for dissenting traditionalists (if any).

It's a good plan.

 

[Rhamiel]

this feels like a bait and switch

when TLT was opened we were assured that it would not be a place to teach against the teachings of the Catholic Church

 

[MikeK]

this feels like a bait and switch

when TLT was opened we were assured that it would not be a place to teach against the teachings of the Catholic Church

The dissent we see so often today in OBOB is the sort of issue that ended up killing webforums off for the most part. At one time, they were relatively friendly places with rather diverse groups sharing their common interest. That quickly devolved into a system where fringe elements of every extreme came to dominate discussion. People with out-there beliefs tend to flock to internet discussions because it is hard to find people in real life who care to entertain their positions and also because often people who hold these positions have a fair amount of social awkwardness. People in the middle of the bell curve don't have the social need for webforums that the outliers do so they allowed themselves to be pushed out without much fight. In many cases, they left because the "crazy" voices got to be too much and interfered with normal conversation. Before long, all you have are outliers supporting positions that don't make sense to most people.

What are the hot topics in OBOB today? I remember when strategies for teaching CCD class, child-rearing and other family relations, and maximizing our impact on the poor were popular topics. The people who contributed to those discussions that benefited the whole community have been largely displaced by people who only seem to care to shill for political positions, inside of Church or out. I don't know that this move will fix that, and in reality I suspect nothing will, but I still applaud this move in the right direction.

I recall when the so-called Traditional forum was being debated I opposed it because I thought it would become a place where dissenting from the Church, calling the Pope a heretic, and other similar fringe behavior would dominate discussion rather than actual traditional Catholicism. I recall being assured that such was not the case and that that sort of behavior would not be allowed. It always feels a little bit good to have your instincts confirmed.

I hope it's still against forum rules to promote abortion or Church-recognized gay marriage in TLT.

 

[Davidnic]

Well it does have a link now if anyone is looking for the place that is in line with Rome they can come to OBOB.

We kept having stuff that was against Rome either way creeping into OBOB.

So the best solution seems to be Let each area have the identity of the members want. One in Union with Rome and Vatican 2 and all the teachings and the Pope.

One that lets people dissent from Rome in a liberal theology.

One that lets them do it in a more traditional theology.

We tried to keep everything in line with Rome but that doesn't seem to be workable. And since Christian forums is not strictly a Catholic forum the best compromise was to clearly define the areas.

 

[Davidnic]

I am sad that we were not able to keep the areas joined more closely.

But as long as they are clearly what they are people can choose to post wherever.

If this was a strictly Catholic Forum like Catholic answers that would be different. They would not exist. But it is not just a Catholic forum.

The statements for these places now clearly show that they can engage in what Rome would consider dissent. People can choose to post in them or not.

I can only say we honestly tried to keep the places more closely tied together and not opposing Rome.

But that became impossible to Moderate.

 

[Tallguy88]

this feels like a bait and switch

when TLT was opened we were assured that it would not be a place to teach against the teachings of the Catholic Church

Would you rather it come here? At least this gets it put in a specific place. CF is not a Catholic site and cannot play favorites with different denominations and theologies, as long as what they promote does not fall foul of the Site wide rules.

And let's be honest, this was brought about by the Traditionalist dissent bring pushed in OBOB. So we will allow them to do that in their area, but couldn't be unfair and not allow the same for the other forum.

 

[Tallguy88]

The dissent we see so often today in OBOB is the sort of issue that ended up killing webforums off for the most part. At one time, they were relatively friendly places with rather diverse groups sharing their common interest. That quickly devolved into a system where fringe elements of every extreme came to dominate discussion. People with out-there beliefs tend to flock to internet discussions because it is hard to find people in real life who care to entertain their positions and also because often people who hold these positions have a fair amount of social awkwardness. People in the middle of the bell curve don't have the social need for webforums that the outliers do so they allowed themselves to be pushed out without much fight. In many cases, they left because the "crazy" voices got to be too much and interfered with normal conversation. Before long, all you have are outliers supporting positions that don't make sense to most people.

What are the hot topics in OBOB today? I remember when strategies for teaching CCD class, child-rearing and other family relations, and maximizing our impact on the poor were popular topics. The people who contributed to those discussions that benefited the whole community have been largely displaced by people who only seem to care to shill for political positions, inside of Church or out. I don't know that this move will fix that, and in reality I suspect nothing will, but I still applaud this move in the right direction.

I recall when the so-called Traditional forum was being debated I opposed it because I thought it would become a place where dissenting from the Church, calling the Pope a heretic, and other similar fringe behavior would dominate discussion rather than actual traditional Catholicism. I recall being assured that such was not the case and that that sort of behavior would not be allowed. It always feels a little bit good to have your instincts confirmed.

It was always considered possible that the discussion would be widened, but we wanted to let them work that out for themselves. It is now clear that is what they want and we have no good reason to deny them.

I hope it's still against forum rules to promote abortion or Church-recognized gay marriage in TLT.

It is, notice the line about how the discussion is limited by the site-wide rules. So homosexuality and abortion may not be promoted.

 

[Davidnic]

And we can still have faithful discussion of the four Cardinals such as Cardinal Burke. But if someone wants to attack them or promote schism that can go to the appropriate area

 

[Rhamiel]

Would you rather it come here? At least this gets it put in a specific place. CF is not a Catholic site and cannot play favorites with different denominations and theologies, as long as what they promote does not fall foul of the Site wide rules.

And let's be honest, this was brought about by the Traditionalist dissent bring pushed in OBOB. So we will allow them to do that in their area, but couldn't be unfair and not allow the same for the other forum.

I think this is a bad move for both of TLT and SOTE
but what do I know?

 

[MikeK]

I think this is a bad move for both of TLT and SOTE
but what do I know?

It labels both groups as what they have decided to be, in open dissent. Of course, both groups will say "well, we're right and they're wrong and it's obvious if you'd really think about it." The rest of us can marvel at how the two groups are virtually exactly the same.

 

[pdudgeon]

I think this is a bad move for both of TLT and SOTE
but what do I know?

well it does accurately reflect the status of the Catholic Church.
so at least there's that.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

well it does accurately reflect the status of the Catholic Church.
so at least there's that.

Sad, but true...

 

[pdudgeon]

Sad, but true...

So we've got to pray that Christ returns soon to rescue us from ourselves.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

So we've got to pray that Christ returns soon to rescue us from ourselves.

I would prefer to say rescue us from evil, but yeah we should pray for his return.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

Would you rather it come here? At least this gets it put in a specific place. CF is not a Catholic site and cannot play favorites with different denominations and theologies, as long as what they promote does not fall foul of the Site wide rules.

And let's be honest, this was brought about by the Traditionalist dissent bring pushed in OBOB. So we will allow them to do that in their area, but couldn't be unfair and not allow the same for the other forum.

Well I think it's unfair to blame us, we didn't throw the first punch.
The leeway for characters like (I won't name names) have been a longtime issue in here, the constant liberal agenda has been pushing this CF-schism of ours for years and the recent developments in Rome has only fueled that growing problems already persent in here to a point of where it has become toxic.

When someones finally picking up the gloves it's a highly unfair caricature to paint them as the agitator.

I distance myself from any such allegations.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

So who decides who's post is liberal or traditional ?

I consider myself a traditional Catholic, but I'm sure there are those who label me liberal and my post are probably not welcomed here.

Jim