Does a?, do, cells have a consciousness...?

[Neogaia777]

Does a?, Do, individual cells have their own consciousness?

Comments?

God Bless!

 

[Greg J.]

What do you mean by consciousness?

 

[Ken Rank]

Does a?, Do, individual cells have their own consciousness?

Comments?

God Bless!

I would guess no. In Hebrew, and I am using this because it is easier to see this point... God made the flesh (Adam's body) and then breathed into it the breath of life... and then Adam became a living soul. So body and breath (life) together = soul. Since the body is made up of DNA, cells, blood.... those things simply work together to allow US to have consciousness. Just as we all are supposed to work together as individual parts of the body of Christ, so too do our cells and many other aspects of our personal bodies work together to give us consciousness.

 

[Neogaia777]

What do you mean by consciousness?

Self-awareness, for starters, thinks, reproduces, ect... Do individual cells, meet the basic definition of "life"...?

 

[Greg J.]

It seems like you want to ask a spiritual question, but aren't. Self-awareness in measurable terms, as it is usually understood, requires quite a few neurons of which a cell has 0. Same for thinking.

Reproduces: Well, are plants conscious—with your definition?

What do you mean by life? If you mean, have organic processes sufficient to preserve those same organic processes, then yes. But then there is an issue of how dependent on other things it can be and still meet the definition.

 

[Neogaia777]

It seems like you want to ask a spiritual question, but aren't. Self-awareness in measurable terms, as it is usually understood, requires quite a few neurons of which a cell has 0. Same for thinking.

Reproduces: Well, are plants conscious—with your definition?

What do you mean by life? If you mean, have organic processes sufficient to preserve those same organic processes, then yes. But then there is an issue of how dependent on other things it can be and still meet the definition.

Cells could be, even plants could be, my problem is, I'm not even sure if "we" (most if not all) of us/we are conscious, really, since, I do not know if most of us, have, even have, or are perhaps not exercising or using our "free will" to choose...

Do we have a free will? And, if we do... Do animals?, then, do trees or plant life, then, do cells?

Can cells act independently of our input? If they can, are, or do, do they have consciousness or free will?

I guess the most important part is the whole "free-will" part... I would say any truly conscious being or thing has to have a free will, has to be able to act and choose independently...

Do cells? For that matter, do we?

"I see men walking as trees" The Blind man said to Jesus when he first spoke a healing word over his sight... Then he did it again, and he saw normally... Was he healed the first time, did he see, but in a spiritual sense only?

God Bless!

 

[JackRT]

Back in the 1950's the Jesuit priest and paleontologist Pere Tielhard DeChardin wrote a book in which he attempted to reconcile evolution and theology. It is called "The Phenomenon of Man". He posits that intelligence and consciousness are tied to the complexity of the entity starting with elementary particles and on up. For example, an atom would have more consciousness than its component protons, neutrons and electrons. At the atomic and molecular level the degree of consciousness is still too small to detect. He also suggests certain critical ‘quantum jumps’ like when a very complex hydrocarbon molecule becomes a living cell. To cut to the chase, he suggests an "Omega Point" when humanity is so linked that the planet itself becomes a living organism of a higher order. The comparison is made to a beehive. The individual bees display a low order of intelligence and consciousness but when we consider that of the hive as a whole it is orders of magnitude above that of its components. The hive itself behaves as an intelligent and conscious entity. Is this the fate of humanity? Is it possible that the internet itself might be the very sort of linkage by which such a quantum leap might be facilitated? Are we approaching Tielhard's Omega Point?

 

[Neogaia777]

Back in the 1950's the Jesuit priest and paleontologist Pere Tielhard DeChardin wrote a book in which he attempted to reconcile evolution and theology. It is called "The Phenomenon of Man". He posits that intelligence and consciousness are tied to the complexity of the entity starting with elementary particles and on up. For example, an atom would have more consciousness than its component protons, neutrons and electrons. At the atomic and molecular level the degree of consciousness is still too small to detect. He also suggests certain critical ‘quantum jumps’ like when a very complex hydrocarbon molecule becomes a living cell. To cut to the chase, he suggests an "Omega Point" when humanity is so linked that the planet itself becomes a living organism of a higher order. The comparison is made to a beehive. The individual bees display a low order of intelligence and consciousness but when we consider that of the hive as a whole it is orders of magnitude above that of its components. The hive itself behaves as an intelligent and conscious entity. Is this the fate of humanity? Is it possible that the internet itself might be the very sort of linkage by which such a quantum leap might be facilitated? Are we approaching Tielhard's Omega Point?

Yes, that is basically what I'm getting at, like the level of the consciousness of a cell as compared to a human consciousness, is comparable to our level of consciousness compared to a God entity...

I do not think we, specifically create, or created God, though, I think he has pretty much, always been, cause if we, or if other lifeforms before us, like us, gave rise to God, then who created them, or us, or how did we come about?

God Bless!

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Self-awareness, for starters, thinks, reproduces, ect... Do individual cells, meet the basic definition of "life"...?

The scientific evidence suggests that the short answer is no, they don't think, they're not conscious or self-aware in the sense we use of ourselves and other animals with brains - the evidence is that that's (partly) what a brain does.

An individual cell may be said to be 'aware' in as much as it can respond to changes in the environment and it's internal state; but these are typically biochemical feedback loops of varying complexity. Such anthropomorphic descriptions are often used of objects and processes that we can imbue with a spurious sense of agency - even inanimate objects.

A functioning single-celled creature typically meets all the basic scientific definitions of life (there are various definitions), but specialized individual cells in multi-cellular creatures may not meet all the criteria of every definition (e.g. once specialized, some cells don't reproduce), although the creature as a whole does.

It's complicated - our categorizations and definitions of aspects of nature tend to be fuzzy at the edges, as nature prefers to blend without conveniently sharp distinctions - so what constitutes a cell is debatable (e.g. red blood cells & platelets), and the same goes for what is life & living (e.g viruses)...

 

[Greg J.]

Cells could be, even plants could be, my problem is, I'm not even sure if "we" (most if not all) of us/we are conscious, really, since, I do not know if most of us, have, even have, or are perhaps not exercising or using our "free will" to choose...

Do we have a free will? And, if we do... Do animals?, then, do trees or plant life, then, do cells?

Can cells act independently of our input? If they can, are, or do, do they have consciousness or free will?

I guess the most important part is the whole "free-will" part... I would say any truly conscious being or thing has to have a free will, has to be able to act and choose independently...

Do cells? For that matter, do we?

"I see men walking as trees" The Blind man said to Jesus when he first spoke a healing word over his sight... Then he did it again, and he saw normally... Was he healed the first time, did he see, but in a spiritual sense only?

God Bless!

Do you believe God is revealed truthfully through the Bible? God treats people and says things about us that shows he considers us sentient, conscious, and with a free will.

In Scripture we see Jesus giving commands to fig trees, but that doesn't mean they are sentient or conscious. In the passage below, would the mountain be hearing your command and decide that it must jump into the sea? No, because he ties this action with something done as a result from praying to God. It is God who would throw the mountain into the sea (because with his authority you would be exercising his power according to his will, not because he obeys us).

And Jesus answered and said to them, “Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and cast into the sea,’ it will happen. “And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive.” (Matthew 21:21-22, 1984 NASB)

I infer that fig trees and mountains probably are not sentient. Doubly so because of the rights God shows they have. We can freely eat plants and sling rocks.

 

[Neogaia777]

Do you believe God is revealed truthfully through the Bible? God treats people and says things about us that shows he considers us sentient, conscious, and with a free will.

In Scripture we see Jesus giving commands to fig trees, but that doesn't mean they are sentient or conscious. In the passage below, would the mountain be hearing your command and decide that it must jump into the sea? No, because he ties this action with something done as a result from praying to God. It is God who would throw the mountain into the sea (because with his authority you would be exercising his power according to his will, not because he obeys us).

And Jesus answered and said to them, “Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and cast into the sea,’ it will happen. “And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive.” (Matthew 21:21-22, 1984 NASB)

I infer that fig trees and mountains probably are not sentient. Doubly so because of the rights God shows they have. We can freely eat plants and sling rocks.

That all depends, doesn't it...?

What is a plant, or a tree, or a rock, or a mountain, spiritually speaking, in a spiritual reality? Where time, distance (space) or Physicality (substance or material as we know it) does not exist, or does not matter, or is not a factor, but still "means something" there, but, in a spiritual sense only?

God Bless!

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

What is a plant, or a tree, or a rock, or a mountain, spiritually speaking, in a spiritual reality? Where time, distance (space) or Physicality (substance or material as we know it) does not exist, or does not matter, or is not a factor, but still "means something" there, but, in a spiritual sense only?

Sounds like you define 'spiritual' as non-existent (no time, space, or material). Rather than say what it isn't, can you say what it is ? Otherwise there's literally nothing to talk about.

 

[Greg J.]

That all depends, doesn't it...?

What is a plant, or a tree, or a rock, or a mountain, spiritually speaking, in a spiritual reality? Where time, distance (space) or Physicality (substance or material as we know it) does not exist, or does not matter, or is not a factor, but still "means something" there, but, in a spiritual sense only?

God Bless!

Yeah, that's not what spiritual things are. God is spirit (John 4:24) and he is as real as we are (if not more so).

Rocks are a part of the earth that God created. He created plants separately, and created humans separate from those. God only said humans were made in his own image.

Many things are real. God says he created them (Genesis 1 and so forth). The word "life" is used in more than one way. Here is the most important one:

And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. (1 John 5:11-12, 1984 NIV)

Scripture indicates in many places that God and what we call "life" are connected. "Death" is the condition of an entity subject to moral judgment when it has no connection to God. We may assume that God's powerful word is not sustaining "nothing."

The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. ... (bold mine, Hebrews 1:3a, 1984 NIV)

If God says something is alive, then it is definitely alive. He is most concerned with our connection to him. He only speaks of it about humans in Scripture.

All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish. There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory. (1 Corinthians 15:39-41, 1984 NASB)

You can go around and around on a topic like this. You may discover reason to accept the common explanations of men. "I think, therefore I am" makes sense, but no one can prove it, because that would require a system that demonstrates existence that is not itself subject to what it demonstrates (which is impossible).

But the topic shouldn't be unnerving. All it means is that you lack enough information to reason out what you are trying to understand. Focusing on what God wants you to learn and do is a lot more important. If you are uncertain about that, then extreme pain that you can't make stop will bring you back to reality.

 

[JackRT]

if we, or if other lifeforms before us, like us, gave rise to God, then who created them, or us, or how did we come about?

It is odd to me that we have no problem in accepting that an immaterial, unobservable, spiritual entity that we call God has existed for all eternity. On the other hand we think that a real, observable universe has to have been created. Why? This makes no sense to me at all. I have no problem with a universe that has existed in one form or another for eternity

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Self-awareness, for starters, thinks, reproduces, ect... Do individual cells, meet the basic definition of "life"...?

No.

Very few animals are self-aware. Ever heared of the "spot test"?
It's when a mark is placed on your cheek for example and then you are put in front of a mirror.

If you are self-aware, you will recognise your own reflection and realise that you have something on your cheek.

Chimpansees pass this test. I think most primates do, but I'm not 100% certain.
I am certain about chimps though, I've witness them pass that test.
When put in front of a mirror, they instantly recognise themselves, see the mark and try to rub it off.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Yes, that is basically what I'm getting at, like the level of the consciousness of a cell as compared to a human consciousness, is comparable to our level of consciousness compared to a God entity...

It is not.
Consiousness/self-awareness is clearly an emergent property of brain chemistry and the neural network therein. It is currently unknown how this works exactly, but there is no doubt that it is emergent from a physical brain.

I do not think we, specifically create, or created God, though, I think he has pretty much, always been, cause if we, or if other lifeforms before us, like us, gave rise to God, then who created them, or us, or how did we come about?

Argument from ignorance.

Even ignoring for a second everything we know about evolution, not having an answer to a question is not a valid foundation to then just make something up instead.

Your positive claims requires positive evidence.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

It is odd to me that we have no problem in accepting that an immaterial, unobservable, spiritual entity that we call God has existed for all eternity. On the other hand we think that a real, observable universe has to have been created. Why? This makes no sense to me at all. I have no problem with a universe that has existed in one form or another for eternity

Exactly.

Reminds me of a statement that Tracy Harris once made on an episode of "the atheist experience"...
Paraphrasing:

"What is really curious is that you have no problems believing that a man was created from dust and a woman from that man's rib, that a talking snake convinced these two to eat from a magical tree, that the earth was flooded in a physically impossible flood, that a man lived in fish for 3 days, that the sun stood still in the sky.... but somehow, well-evidence evolution just blows your mind... "

 

[Larniavc]

Does a?, Do, individual cells have their own consciousness?

Comments?

God Bless!

No.

 

[Larniavc]

Can cells act independently of our input? If they can, are, or do, do they have consciousness or free will

I think you might be thinking of 'The Thing'.

That said, our cells do not need us to consciously control them.

 

[Neogaia777]

Sounds like you define 'spiritual' as non-existent (no time, space, or material). Rather than say what it isn't, can you say what it is ? Otherwise there's literally nothing to talk about.

Nothing, or not much of what we are, and everything we are not...