If the New Covenant was made with Judah and Israel, how does it apply to Gentile Christians?

[Soyeong]

I've been following and commenting in a couple of discussions including Did Jesus tell us to follow Moses 10 commandments? and GENTILES OR CHRISTIANS PRACTICING THE SABBATH ? and I struggle to make what I consider valid points of response without writing long essays.

I've blogged on topics such as Hebrew Roots and Messianic Judaism and how they interact with and sometimes oppose traditional Protestant theology and doctrine, so I've got a lot of material to draw from.

For your consideration, I'd like to ask the question that given the New Covenant language we find in Jeremiah 31 and Ezekiel 36 where God specifically makes that covenant with the House of Judah and the House of Israel, how exactly does that covenant apply to the rest of the world?

The mechanism isn't specifically defined in the Bible. Even Jesus's comments in Matthew 26, Luke 22, and Mark 14 about "This cup is the new covenant in my blood" (usually rendered in the Greek as just "covenant") doesn't make the connection. In other words, there's no direct tie in between what we read in Jeremiah and Ezekiel, and Jesus's statement in the Gospels.

I believe there is an answer. It's a long one, longer than I care to post here, but you can read a summary of my thoughts here: Briefly Revisiting Gentiles and the New Covenant.

I'm partially creating this thread to read how others think about all this (no flame wars, please), but mainly to put the idea out there that how the Church has traditionally considered the New Covenant and interpreted the Bible to support their doctrine may be missing a few things.

Let me know what you think. Thanks.

The New Covenant was only made with the house of Judah and the house of Israel, so straightforwardly, in order to become a member of the New Covenant, we need to become a member of the house of Judah or the house of Israel. The way to do that is through faith in the promise of a redeemer (Romans 9:6-8). According to Ephesians 2:12 and 2:19, Gentiles were once separated from Messiah, excluded from citizenship in Israel, foreigners to the covenants of promise, without hope, and without God in the world, but through faith in Messiah all of that is no longer true with Gentles now no longer being foreigners or strangers, but fellow citizens of Israel along with the saints.

 

[Soyeong]

Thank you. My point exactly. The Church, that is, the body of non-Jewish disciples of Jesus stands alongside Israel, we don't become Israel. John 4:22 says "Salvation comes from the Jews." Without Israel and God's covenant relationship with her, there would be no hope for the rest of the world.

The Greek word "ekklesia" can be translated as "church" or "assembly" and it was used in the Septuagint to refer to the assembly of Israel in the wilderness, so that is when the church age began. When the translators of the Bible inconsistently translate "ekklesia" as "church" when it refers to an assembly of Christian believers, but translate it as "assembly" everywhere else, they create the false impression that the church was something brand new and distinct rather than something old that was rebuilt according to prophecy.

 

[Soyeong]

Replacement Theology, the covenant of Christ is new and replaces the old, emerged very early in Christian thought (2nd century at the latest). It's less clear to me what this requires Jews to do, except to say that Peter had some struggles related to his Jewishness that were specifically prompted by Christ. The early dispute about circumcision and dietary laws suggests that the 1st century Christian Jews followed Mosaic Laws but Gentile Christians were exempt--shades of Noahic requirements, but not stated in those terms. This episode alone argues for two different ways.

According to verses like Isaiah 45:25 and Romans 11:25, all Israel will be saved, so many Jews thought that Gentiles had to become part of Israel in order to become saved, which to them meant becoming Jewish proselytes, which involved circumcision, which also involved becoming part of the group of people who wanted to have Moses as a mediator and agree to do everything that he said. According to the Mishna:

“Moses received the Torah from Sinai and transmitted it Joshua. Joshua transmitted it to the Elders, the Elders to the Prophets, and the Prophets transmitted it to the Men of the Great Assembly. They [the Men of the Great Assembly] said three things: Be deliberate in judgment, raise many students, and make a protective fence for the Torah.”

By the time of Jesus, this had become a large body of oral laws, traditions, customs, rulings, and fences. The issue the face the early Gentile believers was whether they had to live according to these man-made traditions in order to become saved, not whether they had to obey the commands of the God that they served. God's law does not require all Gentiles to become circumcised and does not even require Jews to become circumcised for the purpose of becoming saved, but rather that was a man-made requirement found in the customs of Moses (Act 15:1).

I've come to believe strongly that God loves diversity--there may be a danger of excessive uniformity in thinking that there is only one external form that God wants. Peter found it very hard to accept as "clean" what Christ called "clean".

According to Peter's vision, all kinds of animals were let down, so why did Peter object to God's command instead of simply killing as eating one of the clean animals as the Torah permitted? The issue was a man-made ritual purity law, where something that was clean that came in contact with something that was unclean caused it to become defiled or common (Mark 7:3-4), which means all the clean animals there had become common. So by saying that he had never eaten anything that was common on unclean he was saying that he had never broken that ritual purity law or God's dietary law, and by refusing to obey God's command to kill and eat one of the clean animals, Peter was disobeying God to obey man. Note that God did not rebuke him for referring to an unclean animal as clean, but for referring to a clean animal as common, so his vision was only about the status of clean animals and had nothing to do with unclean animals becoming lawful to eat. Furthermore, Peter interpreted his vision three times and said nothing about being able to eat unclean animals. If he tried to do so, then he would have sinned according to Deuteronomy 4:2 the others would rejected him as a false prophet according to Deuteronomy 13:4-5. They would not have simply accepted a statement from Peter as truth that was on par with saying that it was no longer unlawful to commit murder, adultery, or theft, or to break any of God's other commands.

 

[SpiritRehab]

The House of Israel were cut off and became gentiles and were exiled into gentle nations and intermarried with gentiles. So when God made it possible for the House of Israel to return into covenant with Him, He made it open to all gentiles.

Also, God's covenants were always open to all peoples. The promise was to the House of Israel & House of Judah, but God made it available to all who want to know Him.

 

[BABerean2]

The Messiah is the goal of the Torah (Romans 8:4) because at its deepest meaning it is entirely about him.

Which law?

The law of the Spirit or the law of sin and death found in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8?

Rom 8:1　 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.　
Rom 8:2　 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.　
Rom 8:3　 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,　
Rom 8:4　 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.　
Rom 8:5　 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.　


2Co 3:7　 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,　

.

 

[Hank77]

Thank you. My point exactly. The Church, that is, the body of non-Jewish disciples of Jesus stands alongside Israel, we don't become Israel. John 4:22 says "Salvation comes from the Jews." Without Israel and God's covenant relationship with her, there would be no hope for the rest of the world.

Yes, salvation is from the Jews and this woman understood what He was saying.

Joh 4:20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
Joh 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Joh 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messiah cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
Joh 4:26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

Salvation is of (from) the Jewish Messiah, Yeshua, the Christ.

 

[Hank77]

The nations of the world, by the grace and mercy of God, are allowed to participate somewhat indirectly but as equal beneficiaries. Since Acts 15 makes it clear that non-Jews are not obligated to observe all of the conditions of the Sinai Covenant (and thus do not have to do so under the New Covenant), we're "off the hook," so to speak. However, since those conditions are unchanging, Jews, even believing Jews, remain obligated to the mitzvot, including keeping kosher, observing Shabbat, the whole shooting match.

So Jewish Christians are obligated but Paul was not?
Paul was away from Jerusalem for a minimum of 14 yrs. He did not go to Jerusalem for the three yearly mandatory festivals.
When Paul was eating with Gentiles he ate as the Gentiles. When he was with the Jews he ate as the Jews. Was Paul sinning?

Who's whole shooting match are you referring to?
Who's interpretation of Moses' Law should a Jewish Christian follow? The Ultra=Orthodox Jews, the Orthodox Jews, the Reformed Jews, etc.? Should they follow the Oral Law too, such as the washing of hands or in which order they should put on their clothes?
Should they wear the payot (side curls) (Lev. 19:27) or not?
Should they put a chicken shank on their Seder plate or a lamb's shank?
Why don't most of them eat lamb for Passover as Moses' Law says to?

 

[Soyeong]

Which law?

The law of the Spirit or the law of sin and death found in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8?

Rom 8:1　 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.　
Rom 8:2　 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.　
Rom 8:3　 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,　
Rom 8:4　 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.　
Rom 8:5　 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.　


.

Romans 6:14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

It is not the Mosaic law where sin had dominion over us, but the law of sin. In Romans 7, Paul said that the Mosaic law was holy, righteous, and good (12), that it is spiritual (14), that it is the good that he sought to do (16-19), and the good that he delighted in doing (22), but contrasted that with a law of sin that had dominion over him, which was working within him to stir up sin and to cause him not to do the good that he wanted to do (5, 8, 11, 13, 15, 19, 23-25), so the law of sin is in opposition to the Mosaic law and what we are not under when we are under grace. God's law in (22) is the same thing as the law of the Spirit, which is the same thing as the law of Christ, which was given to Moses, which was contrasted with the law of sin.

According to Hebrews 8:7-13, God did not find fault with his law or with the terms of the covenant, but with the people because they would not live according to the covenant, so God's plan was not to lower His righteous standard, but rather it was was to create a New Covenant where He would take away our hearts of stone, give us hearts of flesh, send His Spirit to cause us to obey His law (Ezekiel 36:26-27) put His law in our minds, write it on our hearts, and send His Son to redeem us from all lawlessness (Titus 2:14) so that we would be free to obey it that we might meet its righteous requirement (Romans 8:3-4). Everything that God's grace trains us to do in Titus 2:11-14 is a description of what our salvation looks like and a description of what the Mosaic law was given to instruct us how to do (Romans 7:7, Romans 7:12). The Mosaic law was given to reveal what sin is, so Jesus came with the message to repent from our disobedience to the Mosaic law for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which means that our need to repent from our disobedience to the Mosaic law is a central part of the Gospel message.

2Co 3:7　 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,

According to Deuteronomy 30:15-20, obedience to the Mosaic law brings life and a blessing for obedience and death and a curse for disobedience, so choose life. The fact that the law brings death for disobedience is hardly a good reason to disobey it. Without the condemnation for those who are in Messiah, the law remains a ministry of righteousness led by the Spirit that will endure forever. We have been set free from the curse of the law so that we are now free obey it by grace through faith and to enjoy its blessing.

Romans 6:13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness.

 

[Winken]

.........and the Holy Spirit jumped in and said........

 

[Winken]

.........and the Holy Spirit jumped in and said........

 

[Winken]

The answer to the question posed in the OP is so simple, so straight-forward, that I can only wonder how this exchange of views en toto can go on.

In response to Post #35, I've read the Hebrew Bible many, many times. I've read the revelation of the Grace Covenant to the Hebrew folk many, many times. I've read the Christian Covenant provided by the Apostle Paul many, many times.

Scary? No. Cause for rejoicing? Yes, and Amen.

 

[Fred Manalo]

I've been following and commenting in a couple of discussions including Did Jesus tell us to follow Moses 10 commandments? and GENTILES OR CHRISTIANS PRACTICING THE SABBATH ? and I struggle to make what I consider valid points of response without writing long essays.

I've blogged on topics such as Hebrew Roots and Messianic Judaism and how they interact with and sometimes oppose traditional Protestant theology and doctrine, so I've got a lot of material to draw from.

For your consideration, I'd like to ask the question that given the New Covenant language we find in Jeremiah 31 and Ezekiel 36 where God specifically makes that covenant with the House of Judah and the House of Israel, how exactly does that covenant apply to the rest of the world?

The mechanism isn't specifically defined in the Bible. Even Jesus's comments in Matthew 26, Luke 22, and Mark 14 about "This cup is the new covenant in my blood" (usually rendered in the Greek as just "covenant") doesn't make the connection. In other words, there's no direct tie in between what we read in Jeremiah and Ezekiel, and Jesus's statement in the Gospels.

I believe there is an answer. It's a long one, longer than I care to post here, but you can read a summary of my thoughts here: Briefly Revisiting Gentiles and the New Covenant.

I'm partially creating this thread to read how others think about all this (no flame wars, please), but mainly to put the idea out there that how the Church has traditionally considered the New Covenant and interpreted the Bible to support their doctrine may be missing a few things.

Let me know what you think. Thanks.

Shalom, peace be with you.
My study of this matter, focusing on what is written in the Scriptures, convinces me that the covenant between God and the children of Israel was truly that, between them alone. And Jesus fulfilled that covenant by baptizing those who received him with the Holy Spirit thus making them all Holy, and then taking them all to heaven around 2,000 years ago just as he promised them.

Because the following was God's requirement and reward for his people's keeping the covenant between them:

Exodus 19:4-8 KJV
[4] "Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself. [5] Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: [6] And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel." [7] And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the Lord commanded him. [8] And all the people answered together, and said, "All that the Lord hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the Lord ."

The only command given to Israel about the Prophet God will raise up from among them when he appears is:

Deuteronomy 18:15 KJV
[15] The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken"

The New Covenant in Jeremiah 31 and Ezekiel 26 is the rebirth or the baptism of the Spirit that all who believed the Messiah received.

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them." Ezekiel 36:26,27 KJV

"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord : But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord , I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord : for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord : for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." Jeremiah 31:31-34 KJV

Being born again or filled with the Spirit of God, they became holy and can no longer sin: "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1 John 3: 9

The signs Jesus said will be seen in all who believed were seen in them:

"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; [18] They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." Mark 16:17-18 KJV

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. [13] And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son." John 14: 12-13 KJV

Only those who listened to the Prophet and obeyed the words God spoke to Israel through him were born again or baptized with the Spirit thus rendering them a holy nation. Jesus told them when he will return and take them into The Kingdom of Heaven:

Mark 9:1 KJV
[1] And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Matthew 16:27-28 KJV
[27] For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. [28] Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Luke 9:27 KJV
[27] But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

If you read again the signs of his coming in Matthew 24 and Luke 21 you will see that among the signs Jesus said will happen in that same generation when the Temple will be destroyed was his coming to take all those who believed in him to heaven.

Jesus was sent only to one people: "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."Matthew 15:24

And he also sent his disciples to them alone:

Matthew 10:5-6 KJV
[5] These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, "Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: [6] But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

We Gentiles were deceived into believing that because Israel rejected the Messiah God has abolished the covenant he had with them and took the Gentiles who believe in Jesus in their place. But the condition is not for all of them to obey or to listen to his voice for God to make them his Holy nation. It is only those who will listen to the Messiah and obey him who will become that "peculiar treasure" unto God, a "kingdom of priests, a holy nation"

The test given about a Prophet sent by God is:

Deuteronomy 18:22 KJV
[22] "When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord , if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him."

If Jesus did not return when he said he will, while some of those listening to him then were still alive, in the generation when the Temple was destroyed, then he was not that Prophet In Deut. 18. If he was that Prophet, then the saints, the born-again sons and daughters of God have been living in heaven for the past 2,000 years. The Jews or the children of Israel with us today are the descendants of those who did not keep the covenant and were left behind. Our religion, we call it Christianity, is not a covenant between God and the Gentiles. There is no such covenant.

 

[BABerean2]

staff edit .

No one can read the entire Bible and honestly conclude that the Sinai Covenant was not a temporary covenant given to the children of Israel.

Exo 34:28 So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights. He neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

Deu 5:1 And Moses summoned all Israel and said to them, "Hear, O Israel, the statutes and the rules that I speak in your hearing today, and you shall learn them and be careful to do them.
Deu 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
Deu 5:3 Not with our fathers did the LORD make this covenant, but with us, who are all of us here alive today.

Gal 3:17　 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect.　
Gal 3:18　 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.　
Gal 3:19　 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.　

Heb 7:12　 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.　


Heb 8:13　 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.　

.

 

[Sine Nomine]

People. Acts 10 is talking about people, non-Jewish people, not food. Once you read it in that context, it makes perfect sense. The Torah never instructed Jews that Gentiles were unclean, but tradition crept into the mix, especially given that at the time, Israel was occupied by Rome, Jews didn't have a lot of motivation for interacting with Gentiles. Peter's vision was to instruct him that Gentile people are not unclean.

The Ethiopian Eunuch (he might not literally have been castrated) is complex, but I heard one interpretation that he was Jewish (it's a long story).

My opinion is that covenants are additive, not substitutionary. The Sinai and New Covenants are not mutually exclusive but rather complementary. The New Covenant just builds on the Sinai, and in a unique way. In the New Covenant language, there is nothing said about changing or eliminating the 613 mitzvot (commandments). The only thing that changes is where they are written. Previously, they are external, written on tablets and scrolls. Under the emerging New Covenant, they are written on the hearts of the Jewish people.

The nations of the world, by the grace and mercy of God, are allowed to participate somewhat indirectly but as equal beneficiaries. Since Acts 15 makes it clear that non-Jews are not obligated to observe all of the conditions of the Sinai Covenant (and thus do not have to do so under the New Covenant), we're "off the hook," so to speak. However, since those conditions are unchanging, Jews, even believing Jews, remain obligated to the mitzvot, including keeping kosher, observing Shabbat, the whole shooting match.

That's why I make a distinction between Hebrew Christians, those who have converted to the normative Church and behave as Gentile Christians (worshiping on Sunday, eating ham), and Messianic Jews who recognize Jesus as "Rav Yeshua" and maintain a Jewish praxis.

I don't see any problem with Christian Jews maintaining Jewish Praxis or dietary rules and have to agree that non-Jewish Christians are "off the hook".

The difficulty comes when trying to establish what God intends. Are the covenants additive, substitutionary, or progressive? The third option may have the better historical claim over substitutionary although it's usually discussed in terms of revelation of God's plans/promises--in this view, each revelation, each covenant, encompasses, builds upon (but not necessarily a simple addition to) the previous one. Thus the covenant with Abraham is fuller than that with Adam, that with Moses fuller than with Abraham, that in Christ fuller than Moses. I think this likely means that faith/trust in Christ is superior to any practice of rules solely for the sake of the rule. But, I don't have a good way to know with certainty.

Does the mitzvot require sacrifices for sin, thanks, and corporate atonement? Is the mitzvot scriptural or simply a codified interpretation of scripture? I'm asking, not to raise points of contention, but to understand more of what your thinking.

 

[mmksparbud]

I've been following and commenting in a couple of discussions including Did Jesus tell us to follow Moses 10 commandments? and GENTILES OR CHRISTIANS PRACTICING THE SABBATH ? and I struggle to make what I consider valid points of response without writing long essays.

I've blogged on topics such as Hebrew Roots and Messianic Judaism and how they interact with and sometimes oppose traditional Protestant theology and doctrine, so I've got a lot of material to draw from.

For your consideration, I'd like to ask the question that given the New Covenant language we find in Jeremiah 31 and Ezekiel 36 where God specifically makes that covenant with the House of Judah and the House of Israel, how exactly does that covenant apply to the rest of the world?

The mechanism isn't specifically defined in the Bible. Even Jesus's comments in Matthew 26, Luke 22, and Mark 14 about "This cup is the new covenant in my blood" (usually rendered in the Greek as just "covenant") doesn't make the connection. In other words, there's no direct tie in between what we read in Jeremiah and Ezekiel, and Jesus's statement in the Gospels.

I believe there is an answer. It's a long one, longer than I care to post here, but you can read a summary of my thoughts here: Briefly Revisiting Gentiles and the New Covenant.

I'm partially creating this thread to read how others think about all this (no flame wars, please), but mainly to put the idea out there that how the Church has traditionally considered the New Covenant and interpreted the Bible to support their doctrine may be missing a few things.

Let me know what you think. Thanks.

The old covenant was with Israel---who where the Israelites? Anyone who claimed their God as theirs, and did as He bid. With the Jews came a great mixed multitude---the covenant was with them too. Who then is the new covenant with? Anyone who claims God as their own and does as He bids.

 

[BABerean2]

Who then is the new covenant with? Anyone who claims God as their own and does as He bids.

Joh 3:3　 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."　
Joh 3:4　 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"　
Joh 3:5　 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.　
Joh 3:6　 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.　
Joh 3:7　 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'　
Joh 3:8　 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."　

Joh 3:16　 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.　
Joh 3:17　 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.　
Joh 3:18　 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.　

Joh 5:24　 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.　

Act 2:36　 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."　
Act 2:37　 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"　
Act 2:38　 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
　

Eph 2:8　 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,　
Eph_2:9　 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

.

 

[Winken]

Shalom, peace be with you.
My study of this matter, focusing on what is written in the Scriptures, convinces me that the covenant between God and the children of Israel was truly that, between them alone. And Jesus fulfilled that covenant by baptizing those who received him with the Holy Spirit thus making them all Holy, and then taking them all to heaven around 2,000 years ago just as he promised them.

Because the following was God's requirement and reward for his people's keeping the covenant between them:

Exodus 19:4-8 KJV
[4] "Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself. [5] Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: [6] And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel." [7] And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the Lord commanded him. [8] And all the people answered together, and said, "All that the Lord hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the Lord ."

The only command given to Israel about the Prophet God will raise up from among them when he appears is:

Deuteronomy 18:15 KJV
[15] The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken"

Only those who listened to the Prophet and obeyed the words God spoke to Israel through him were born again or baptized with the Spirit thus rendering them a holy nation. Jesus told them when he will return and take them into The Kingdom of Heaven:

Mark 9:1 KJV
[1] And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Matthew 16:27-28 KJV
[27] For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. [28] Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Luke 9:27 KJV
[27] But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

If you read again the signs of his coming in Matthew 24 and Luke 21 you will see that among the signs Jesus said will happen in that same generation when the Temple will be destroyed was his coming to take all those who believed in him to heaven.

Jesus was sent only to one people: "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."Matthew 15:24

And he also sent his disciples to them alone:

Matthew 10:5-6 KJV
[5] These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, "Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: [6] But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

We Gentiles were deceived into believing that because Israel rejected the Messiah God has abolished the covenant he had with them and took the Gentiles who believe in Jesus in their place. But the condition is not for all of them to obey or to listen to his voice for God to make them his Holy nation. It is only those who will listen to the Messiah and obey him who will become that "peculiar treasure" unto God, a "kingdom of priests, a holy nation "

The test given about a Prophet sent by God is:

Deuteronomy 18:22 KJV
[22] "When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord , if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him."

If Jesus did not return when he said he will, while some of those listening to him then were still alive, in the generation when the Temple was destroyed, then he was not that Prophet In Deut. 18. If he was that Prophet, then the saints, the born-again sons and daughters of God have been living in heaven for the past 2,000 years. The Jews or the children of Israel with us today are the descendants of those who did not keep the covenant and were left behind. Our religion, we call it Christianity, is not a covenant between God and the Gentiles. There is no such covenant.

I can't Spiritually accept your conclusion that "there is no such covenant." However, thank you for a well-thought out and well-presented summation.

 

[jamespyles]

Does the mitzvot require sacrifices for sin, thanks, and corporate atonement? Is the mitzvot scriptural or simply a codified interpretation of scripture? I'm asking, not to raise points of contention, but to understand more of what your thinking.

I stopped receiving email notifications about this discussion thread, so I'm woefully behind.

It is my understanding that the Temple sacrifices were never to atone for intentional sin (and only a few addressed sin at all). All along the "mechanism" for the forgiveness of sins was confession to God and since repentance ("teshuvah" deserves it's own discussion due to its complexities). I think we sometimes get too hung up on "the Jews don't have the Temple for atonement so they have to convert to Christianity".

Jews can point to different portions of the Torah (Five Books of Moses) and say it contains the 613 commandments, but some of them (at least to me) seem to be "creative" (such as the prohibition of eating dairy and meat together). Nevertheless, I'm not going to go into a synagogue and express my opinions because that's not my place. Jews have a right to interpret scripture just as Christians do.

Judaism is a very "action-oriented" religious structure. To obey God, you have to do something. It's not just a matter of intellectual ascension of the existence of God.

Even studying Talmud is considered a form of worship, which is some comfort to me since I enjoy study and feel closer to God when I do.

Jews believe, and I agree with them, that one thing the Messiah will do is rebuild the Temple and reestablish the Levitical priesthood, and there is some support for this in Jeremiah 31 and subsequent chapters. That puts we Christians in a bit of a bind because what role will the Temple and the priests have in the Messianic Kingdom (and isn't Jesus supposed to be our High Priest replacing the old order?).

The tough part about considering these questions is that they put us in a position where we may have to significantly reorder our understanding of the Bible.

 

[jamespyles]

The old covenant was with Israel---who where the Israelites? Anyone who claimed their God as theirs, and did as He bid. With the Jews came a great mixed multitude---the covenant was with them too. Who then is the new covenant with? Anyone who claims God as their own and does as He bids.

My understanding of who Israel is today is the Jewish people. I don't think a non-Jew such as myself can claim to be an "Israelite" based on my faith in the God of Israel. Having been married to the Jewish wife for over 30 years has given my plenty of insight into covenant identity.

 

[Winken]

I stopped receiving email notifications about this discussion thread, so I'm woefully behind.

It is my understanding that the Temple sacrifices were never to atone for intentional sin (and only a few addressed sin at all). All along the "mechanism" for the forgiveness of sins was confession to God and since repentance ("teshuvah" deserves it's own discussion due to its complexities). I think we sometimes get too hung up on "the Jews don't have the Temple for atonement so they have to convert to Christianity".

Jews can point to different portions of the Torah (Five Books of Moses) and say it contains the 613 commandments, but some of them (at least to me) seem to be "creative" (such as the prohibition of eating dairy and meat together). Nevertheless, I'm not going to go into a synagogue and express my opinions because that's not my place. Jews have a right to interpret scripture just as Christians do.

Judaism is a very "action-oriented" religious structure. To obey God, you have to do something. It's not just a matter of intellectual ascension of the existence of God.

Even studying Talmud is considered a form of worship, which is some comfort to me since I enjoy study and feel closer to God when I do.

Jews believe, and I agree with them, that one thing the Messiah will do is rebuild the Temple and reestablish the Levitical priesthood, and there is some support for this in Jeremiah 31 and subsequent chapters. That puts we Christians in a bit of a bind because what role will the Temple and the priests have in the Messianic Kingdom (and isn't Jesus supposed to be our High Priest replacing the old order?).

The tough part about considering these questions is that they put us in a position where we may have to significantly reorder our understanding of the Bible.

Happy to see your post. Always informative. I'll just comment that "we may have to reorder our understanding of the Bible" is applicable for millions of Christians and non-Christians. The key that opens that wonderful door, however, is right there in Romans 10:8-13, with the added assurance of eternal security through Grace right there in Romans 8:1. With that as our firm foundation, we can move on to rejoicing in, and one day in person with, our Lord and Savior.