Not quite religion, but then what?

[Galatea]

I do not know, I have never been there.

Do people often get to the highest rung in Judaism?

 

[dlamberth]

I end up meeting nowadays more and more people who practice something and believe in something, which is difficult to define. Might be a bit like a religion, but isn't quite.

Maybe an awakening of sorts?

 

[Robban]

Do people often get to the highest rung in Judaism?

Well,
the greatest mitzvah is giving to charity, so great it is considered a "get out of jail for free card"

But to go deeper, we would have to venture into the realm of,
reincarnation of the soul.

 

[dlamberth]

But, there is something about becoming a mother that causes women to want to make sure their children are brought up in church.

Its not uncommon in my world that for the people in attendance, women will out number men, and often by a large percentage.

 

[Galatea]

Its not uncommon in my world that for the people in attendance, women will out number men, and often by a large percentage.

But, does attending church equate to being close to God- or is it just conformity? I mean wanting your children to be upright is not the same as being close to God.

 

[Galatea]

Well,
the greatest mitzvah is giving to charity, so great it is considered a "get out of jail for free card"

But to go deeper, we would have to venture into the realm of,
reincarnation of the soul.

But is this like giving to charity like many of us do, a few dollars here or there- or is this like a sacrificial giving?

Is reincarnation taught in Judaism?

 

[dlamberth]

But, does attending church equate to being close to God- or is it just conformity?

For myself, I find that I'm closest to God when I'm working my garden. I think we all differ though. Each of our souls are touched differently. But I also think that we often are not aware of our souls needs and just conform.

 

[Cearbhall]

What's in your opinion, a fundamental difference between things like life philosophy, value system, religion, spiritual practice etc.?

Coming from a social science perspective, I always want demographics to be neatly labeled and defined so that they can be quantified and analyzed, but you're right, religion and spirituality defy this. I think it's always been that way, to be honest.

I recently took a long look at the full report of Pew's study from last year. Looking at the complete list of categories, the most accurate classification if I were to be interviewed would be "Unitarian (Universalist)." However, I also fit under either Atheist or Agnostic. Probably Humanist as well, and maybe "Bit of everything." I'm sure many of the respondents likewise fit into multiple categories, which makes it hard to get a clear picture of what people believe.

 

[RDKirk]

Religion is doing, faith is believing.

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can his faith save him?

If a brother or sister is without clothes and lacks daily food and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you don’t give them what the body needs, what good is it? In the same way faith, if it doesn’t have works, is dead by itself.

But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without works, and I will show you faith from my works. You believe that God is one; you do well. The demons also believe—and they shudder. -- James 2

James is not contradicting Paul's letter to the Romans that it's faith that saves, not working for salvation. Paul described the mechanics of the process of being saved; James entire letter is about how a person behaves after being saved.

The faith with the power to save will also compel a Christian to emulate Jesus. If there is no such compulsion, whatever "faith" that person claims is not the faith that Paul is talking about. It's a dead "faith" that--like a dead idol--that being dead, does nothing at all, not even save.

 

[Jack of Spades]

I won't deny I'd like to persuade you to become a Christian.
But you will NEVER hear from me a list of things to do after being converted. There are people who are and will be in Heaven who are saved as by fire, who do no more or no less than get saved. I'll probably get grief for writing this, but I don't care, it is the truth. There are going to be a lot of people there who will be a surprise to others who think you have to be good.

Well, it's okay to want to save my soul. It's only logical considering what you believe and I guess I should take it as a compliment, or something. But I'd like to mention that you don't need to inform me about Christianity, I already know plenty about it as I have read the NT many times and plenty of Christian literature, and I've been involved with Christianity a lot in my life.

If I don't get to Christian heaven, I won't blame your lack of effort for it. It's my own call, I have been evangelized enough to get a fair chance, I bear my own responsibility for rejecting it.

 

[Galatea]

For myself, I find that I'm closest to God when I'm working my garden. I think we all differ though. Each of our souls are touched differently. But I also think that we often are not aware of our souls needs and just conform.

That's very true- many people are afraid to get down deep and just live on the surface. Sometimes, women's lives are busy things and they are thinking about surface things- so may not be as close to God as men. I am thinking about Mary and Martha. Jesus was teaching- who was listening? The men, and Mary. Martha told her off, but Mary was thinking about deeper things.

I don't think it is a male/female dichotomy of one sex being closer. I think it is more of an individual thing. Not something that can really be generalized.

 

[Galatea]

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can his faith save him?

If a brother or sister is without clothes and lacks daily food and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you don’t give them what the body needs, what good is it? In the same way faith, if it doesn’t have works, is dead by itself.

But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without works, and I will show you faith from my works. You believe that God is one; you do well. The demons also believe—and they shudder. -- James 2

James is not contradicting Paul's letter to the Romans that it's faith that saves, not working for salvation. Paul described the mechanics of the process of being saved; James entire letter is about how a person behaves after being saved.

The faith with the power to save will also compel a Christian to emulate Jesus. If there is no such compulsion, whatever "faith" that person claims is not the faith that Paul is talking about. It's a dead "faith" that--like a dead idol--that being dead, does nothing at all, not even save.

I don't disagree- people who are saved want to work, but there are people who do not work, or people who work for the wrong reasons.

Have you kept all the things James has written? It's a long list. I have not.

James was written to the twelve tribes, not the Gentile believers- just as Leviticus and Deuteronomy was written to the Jewish nation.

I Corinthians 3:15 "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

I know there are people who disagree with me.

 

[Galatea]

Well, it's okay to want to save my soul. It's only logical considering what you believe and I guess I should take it as a compliment, or something. But I'd like to mention that you don't need to inform me about Christianity, I already know plenty about it as I have read the NT many times and plenty of Christian literature, and I've been involved with Christianity a lot in my life.

If I don't get to Christian heaven, I won't blame your lack of effort for it. It's my own call, I have been evangelized enough to get a fair chance, I bear my own responsibility for rejecting it.

Yes, it is up to you- of course. I just didn't know if you'd ever heard of my Christianity, which seems to be different from a lot of people's around here. Someone on another forum called it Sola Fide or something like that. It's pretty freeing. It takes all the onus off of me and puts it on God.

 

[Robban]

But is this like giving to charity like many of us do, a few dollars here or there- or is this like a sacrificial giving?

Is reincarnation taught in Judaism?

There are different levels,

10%-20%
regually as in Malachi.

But over and above, yes, where ever there is need.

It is not good to fall on hard times.

The highest level is to give someone a job or find someone a job, or give them an intrestfree loan so they can start a project.

that is the highest,
if you give someone some food it is good but,
they will be hungry again.

If one has nothing to give, at least give an encouraging word.

I will try to dig out the levels,
but is late now.

Reincarnation is a part of Jewish tradition, a surprise for many.

The true authority for this concept is rooted in the tradition.

Alluding to this is among others,

"Behold, all these things does God do-twice, even three times with a man-to bring his soul back from the pit that he may be enlightened with the light of the living."
Job 33:29.

Furthermore,
even some of the greatest authorities who are not necessarily known for their mystical bent assume reincarnation to be an
accepted basic tenet.

 

[Jack of Spades]

Coming from a social science perspective, I always want demographics to be neatly labeled and defined so that they can be quantified and analyzed, but you're right, religion and spirituality defy this. I think it's always been that way, to be honest.

The identification problem is something most people who land out of traditional religions, yet still practice something and don't become non-religious entirely, often face.

I've had plenty of difficulties identifying myself over last 10 years, at times I've used Mystic, Christian (with various additional labels), Pagan, Nothing really, bit of everything, religious mess. etc. but none of those is really spot on. There simply doesn't exist a very accurate label for what I happen to be.

I recently took a long look at the full report of Pew's study from last year. Looking at the complete list of categories, the most accurate classification if I were to be interviewed would be "Unitarian (Universalist)." However, I also fit under either Atheist or Agnostic. Probably Humanist as well, and maybe "Bit of everything." I'm sure many of the respondents likewise fit into multiple categories, which makes it hard to get a clear picture of what people believe.

It's an interesting study. I think the page 11 "Generational Replacement Helping Drive Growth of Unaffiliated, Decline of Mainline" is particularily revealing, the oldest generation being 85% Christian and the youngest 56%. The direction is quite clear but the US is still a very religious country compared to most of the Europe. I recall the church going rate being 30-40% in the US, while it's 2-5% in Finland, for example.

I think this study would make a good thread of it's own?

 

[Galatea]

There are different levels,

10%-20%
regually as in Malachi.

But over and above, yes, where ever there is need.

It is not good to fall on hard times.

The highest level is to give someone a job or find someone a job, or give them an intrestfree loan so they can start a project.

that is the highest,
if you give someone some food it is good but,
they will be hungry again.

If one has nothing to give, at least give an encouraging word.

I will try to dig out the levels,
but is late now.

Reincarnation is a part of Jewish tradition, a surprise for many.

The true authority for this concept is rooted in the tradition.

Alluding to this is among others,

"Behold, all these things does God do-twice, even three times with a man-to bring his soul back from the pit that he may be enlightened with the light of the living."
Job 33:29.

Furthermore,
even some of the greatest authorities who are not necessarily known for their mystical bent assume reincarnation to be an
accepted basic tenet.

Thanks for answering my questions. I know it is part of the Jewish religion to take care of each other, that is admirable. I did not know about the belief in reincarnation, so that is quite eye-opening.

 

[Jack of Spades]

Yes, it is up to you- of course. I just didn't know if you'd ever heard of my Christianity, which seems to be different from a lot of people's around here. Someone on another forum called it Sola Fide or something like that. It's pretty freeing. It takes all the onus off of me and puts it on God.

I actually have been involved with a rather similar version of Christianity. It started in a church called The Bible Speaks, if I recall the English translation of it right ("Raamattu puhuu" in Finnish). Their theology was based on the OSAS - doctrine.

As you were open with your willingness to make me a Christian, I'll make some confessions too. I have no agenda of converting you into my 'religion' (whatever my religion is), but maybe I would like to introduce you a bit into thinking outside of the box of Christianity, and seeing some depth and reality in the spirituality that happens in some other context too.

Your version of Christianity doesn't sound too bad to me, at least I can say that I'm not bitterly against it, heh. I don't even think anyone should by default, reject their own religion (unless it's clearly a source of distress for them) they are used to, I just want everyone to be more open-minded than what most people usually tend to be about other faiths and especially about spiritual things that don't quite fit into boxes. If I have an agenda, it would be something like that.

 

[Galatea]

I actually have been involved with a rather similar version of Christianity. It started in a church called The Bible Speaks, if I recall the English translation of it right ("Raamattu puhuu" in Finnish). Their theology was based on the OSAS - doctrine.

As you were open with your willingness to make me a Christian, I'll make some confessions too. I have no agenda of converting you into my 'religion' (whatever my religion is), but maybe I would like to introduce you a bit into thinking outside of the box of Christianity, and seeing some depth and reality in the spirituality that happens in some other context too.

Your version of Christianity doesn't sound too bad to me, at least I can say that I'm not bitterly against it, heh. I don't even think anyone should by default, reject their own religion (unless it's clearly a source of distress for them) they are used to, I just want everyone to be more open-minded than what most people usually tend to be about other faiths and especially about spiritual things that don't quite fit into boxes. If I have an agenda, it would be something like that.

Why did you decide you did not agree with the theology taught at The Bible Speaks?

 

[Jack of Spades]

Why did you decide you did not agree with the theology taught at The Bible Speaks?

It's a complex story, I actually never believed that it was a biblical theology, but I was in a kind of urgent need to find something more grace-focused back then, so I just ignored the Bible and accepted it as my belief anyway for a while. Then after a while I ran into difficulties with the larger scheme of believing like a Christian generally and changes in that bigger picture kind of undermined the whole point of believing in any particular Christian theology.

Messy enough?

 

[Galatea]

It's a complex story, I actually never believed that it was a biblical theology, but I was in a kind of urgent need to find something more grace-focused back then, so I just ignored the Bible and accepted it as my belief anyway for a while. Then after a while I ran into difficulties with the larger scheme of believing like a Christian generally and changes in that bigger picture kind of undermined the whole point of believing in any particular Christian theology.

Messy enough?

Yes, it is messy.