Not quite religion, but then what?

[Jack of Spades]

I end up meeting nowadays more and more people who practice something and believe in something, which is difficult to define. Might be a bit like a religion, but isn't quite.

Would for example, people who believe in spirit guides be religious in your books? Or when someone believes they are spiritually one with the nature? When someone is just spiritual but not religious? What is it called when someone has a mix of life philosophy and spiritual practices, but doesn't really follow any particular religion.

What's in your opinion, a fundamental difference between things like life philosophy, value system, religion, spiritual practice etc.?

I don't really have any point to make here, just asking for random thoughts on the topic, for thought food. As nowadays traditional religions are losing ground, but people still practice all sorts of elements of religions, it's getting a bit blurry.

 

[RDKirk]

Your gods are whatever dictates your choices. Your gods are whatever you obey.

If that's not Christ for any given choice, then that is an anti-Christ.

Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
...
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. -- Romans 6

 

[Eudaimonist]

Would for example, people who believe in spirit guides be religious in your books? Or when someone believes they are spiritually one with the nature? When someone is just spiritual but not religious?

What do you think is the difference between those and religion? What needs to be added to belief in "spirit guides" to make that worldview a religion?

Give it a try.

For instance, let's say that Anna believes in spirit guides, and this doesn't feel religion-like enough. So, what does Anna believe about spirit guides?

Well, maybe she believes that spirit guides are just wise people who have died and now communicate with the living. Dead people are just people. They aren't gods. They don't explain the world we live in.

Let's say instead that certain spirit guides are not dead human beings. They helped to form the Earth out of cosmic chaos. They have names, and each spirit guide explains a different aspect of human existence.

That's starting to look like a religion. Try adding and taking away various elements and see how it looks.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[High Fidelity]

I think in many cases, operating under a particular or generalised set of values that has a label is usually considered a religion.

Buddhism is probably the most prominent example of this, in my opinion. In the traditional sense I wouldn't consider it a religion as I suppose to most, religion infers subjection to a deity, but a philosophy.

Ultimately, though, I think it has something to do with identity. It seems most people want a cause, positive or negative, to channel their energy in to; to give them purpose.

 

[Robban]

I end up meeting nowadays more and more people who practice something and believe in something, which is difficult to define. Might be a bit like a religion, but isn't quite.

Would for example, people who believe in spirit guides be religious in your books? Or when someone believes they are spiritually one with the nature? When someone is just spiritual but not religious? What is it called when someone has a mix of life philosophy and spiritual practices, but doesn't really follow any particular religion.

What's in your opinion, a fundamental difference between things like life philosophy, value system, religion, spiritual practice etc.?

I don't really have any point to make here, just asking for random thoughts on the topic, for thought food. As nowadays traditional religions are losing ground, but people still practice all sorts of elements of religions, it's getting a bit blurry.

What is there to say?

Plenty, but how to channel it into bite size pieces.

Found this in a no frills paraphraze version;
Acts 17:22,

So, Paul, standing before them at the Mars Hill forum,
addressed them as follows;

"Men of Athens, I notice that you are very religious,
for as I was out walking I saw your many altars,
and one of them had this inscription on it-'To the Unknown God'.

You have been worshiping him without knowing who he is,
and now I wish to tell you about him"
That was Pauls take on it.


The prophets of old did not belong to any religious establishment,

they were very unpopular.

Their main task was to warn.

Something to bear in mind;

"Let Moses who loves them rebuke them,
and let Balaam who despises them bless them."

Religion may be useful in helping one to train in selfcontrol,

But the spirit of God cannot be kept in a cage.

 

[Galatea]

Religion to me is "doing something". So, anything you "do" for acceptance to a Higher Power is religion. This is a simplistic defintion to be sure. This is why Christians are usually very particular about saying we do NOT have a religion, we have a relationship, because we can not do anything for acceptance. So, even burning incense, meditating, trying to empty your mind of bad thoughts- even if this doesn't look like religion, it's religion because you are "doing something" in order to get in touch with a Higher Power or powers. Religion is a system, it doesn't matter if the system is traditional or one you come up with yourself.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Religion to me is "doing something". So, anything you "do" for acceptance to a Higher Power is religion. This is a simplistic defintion to be sure. This is why Christians are usually very particular about saying we do NOT have a religion, we have a relationship, because we can not do anything for acceptance. So, even burning incense, meditating, trying to empty your mind of bad thoughts- even if this doesn't look like religion, it's religion because you are "doing something" in order to get in touch with a Higher Power or powers. Religion is a system, it doesn't matter if the system is traditional or one you come up with yourself.

While I sort of agree, I'd say that being in a "relationship" with God is definitely "doing something". What is different is that you don't have to keep renewing the contract.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Jack of Spades]

Religion to me is "doing something". So, anything you "do" for acceptance to a Higher Power is religion. This is a simplistic defintion to be sure. This is why Christians are usually very particular about saying we do NOT have a religion, we have a relationship, because we can not do anything for acceptance. So, even burning incense, meditating, trying to empty your mind of bad thoughts- even if this doesn't look like religion, it's religion because you are "doing something" in order to get in touch with a Higher Power or powers. Religion is a system, it doesn't matter if the system is traditional or one you come up with yourself.

If someone had a spirit guide who appears to them spontaneously, communicates with them, teaches something interactively (f.e. answers questions), and the person contacting the spirit learns things about the spirit in the process, and so on, would you call that a relationship? I think I would be fine with calling it a relationship myself.

And about the acceptance - part, I think that's just one possible motive for prayer or meditation etc. Things that look the same outwardly, can be driven by very different motives in reality, and thus be very different in nature.

What would in your thinking be the opposite of practicing (pray etc) to get in touch with a Higher Power? If that's the wrong way, then what's the right way to practice, f.e. pray?

 

[Galatea]

While I sort of agree, I'd say that being in a "relationship" with God is definitely "doing something". What is different is that you don't have to keep renewing the contract.


eudaimonia,

Mark

I disagree, I don't have to do anything in my relationship with God. I could totally ignore Him for days or months on end, and He still has me.

If I love Him as I ought, I'll WANT to do the things to make Him happy and pleased with me, but I don't have to do a thing.

 

[Eudaimonist]

I disagree, I don't have to do anything in my relationship with God. I could totally ignore Him for days or months on end, and He still has me.

"Having you" and being in a relationship are two different things. A relationship that involves no effort is not a relationship at all. It is peaceful co-existence.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Galatea]

If someone had a spirit guide who appears to them spontaneously, communicates with them, teaches something interactively (f.e. answers questions), and the person contacting the spirit learns things about the spirit in the process, and so on, would you call that a relationship? I think I would be fine with calling it a relationship myself.

And about the acceptance - part, I think that's just one possible motive for prayer or meditation etc. Things that look the same outwardly, can be driven by very different motives in reality, and thus be very different in nature.

What would in your thinking be the opposite of practicing (pray etc) to get in touch with a Higher Power? If that's the wrong way, then what's the right way to practice, f.e. pray?

What does the person have to do to get in touch with a spirit guide? Get themselves into a particular meditative state? Purge their mind of bad thoughts? This is doing something. What do they have to do to get in touch with the spirit guide?

I can come boldly unto the throne of God, in my sins, I can't clean up or get myself in a good mindset to pray. I just start talking to him like I am, dirty and all. This is doing nothing. I don't get myself right before praying, I can't. I just pray and ask Him to get me right.

 

[Galatea]

"Having you" and being in a relationship are two different things. A relationship that involves no effort is not a relationship at all. It is peaceful co-existence.


eudaimonia,

Mark

A relationship between people requires work on both parts, but not a relationship with God. There's a difference. I know I can't do anything at all to merit His favor, I can't work to get Him to love me more. He already loves me more than anything else in the world. The thing is, I can be as close or as far from Him as I want. I can be lead by His eye or His hand, but either way, I don't work.

If I ignore Him, I'm still lead by His eye, and at any time, I can come back and hold His hand. It only takes a word from me. This is not the same as a relationship between two mortals.

 

[Jack of Spades]

What does the person have to do to get in touch with a spirit guide? Get themselves into a particular meditative state? Purge their mind of bad thoughts? This is doing something. What do they have to do to get in touch with the spirit guide?

Spirit guides are a phenomenon known in many traditions and cultures, so I don't think there is any one established, right way to make the contact. In my experience and the experiences I have heard about, it's either a conscious effort to make the contact, or a spontaneous phenomenon where they just appear, or start giving signs etc.

It varies too much to make any general statements.

I can come boldly unto the throne of God, in my sins, I can't clean up or get myself in a good mindset to pray. I just start talking to him like I am, dirty and all. This is doing nothing. I don't get myself right before praying, I can't. I just pray and ask Him to get me right.

Sounds nice, I suppose. I am a little bit suspicious about how much of all this difference between Christian prayer and prayer generally is just a difference in rhetorics, and how much of it is an actual difference?

What you talk about sounds to me like finding a place of trust in the entity one is praying. Even if we assume that what you say is true for all Christians (which I doubt) I would still assume that Christians too go through some kind of a process to develop that 'mindset of trust' while being in prayer and it's not something that comes automatically for every Christian from the start.

 

[Galatea]

Spirit guides are a phenomenon known in many traditions and cultures, so I don't think there is any one established, right way to make the contact. In my experience and the experiences I have heard about, it's either a conscious effort to make the contact, or a spontaneous phenomenon where they just appear, or start giving signs etc.

It varies too much to make any general statements.



Sounds nice, I suppose. I am a little bit suspicious about how much of all this difference between Christian prayer and prayer generally is just a difference in rhetorics, and how much of it is an actual difference?

What you talk about sounds to me like finding a place of trust in the entity one is praying. Even if we assume that what you say is true for all Christians (which I doubt) I would still assume that Christians too go through some kind of a process to develop that 'mindset of trust' while being in prayer and it's not something that comes automatically for every Christian from the start.

I guess I mean there is nothing I can possibly do, nothing to go through, no ritual I must perform, no way I need to be in order to come to God. Even in the spontaneous spirit guide apparitions, does not the recipient have to be in a particular state in order to have an apparition? If they have to be in some transcendent state, or in some kind of contemplative state or something, that requires you to do something in order to be something, even if it is not a physical act, it is a spiritual act of doing.

I would argue that with every genuine believer, prayer is exactly what I am saying, just talking to God as a child who talks to his father, actually closer because in this case, the Father knows every filthy thought, every horrible motive, every dirty thing that passes through our minds.

There is no state I have to be in, there is nothing I need to do.

 

[Robban]

I guess I mean there is nothing I can possibly do, nothing to go through, no ritual I must perform, no way I need to be in order to come to God. Even in the spontaneous spirit guide apparitions, does not the recipient have to be in a particular state in order to have an apparition? If they have to be in some transcendent state, or in some kind of contemplative state or something, that requires you to do something in order to be something, even if it is not a physical act, it is a spiritual act of doing.

I would argue that with every genuine believer, prayer is exactly what I am saying, just talking to God as a child who talks to his father, actually closer because in this case, the Father knows every filthy thought, every horrible motive, every dirty thing that passes through our minds.

There is no state I have to be in, there is nothing I need to do.

You are female there is a difference, I bet you will ask what's the difference.

Don't.

Because all I can say is that in and with womanhood and motherhood you are already connected.

 

[Jack of Spades]

I guess I mean there is nothing I can possibly do, nothing to go through, no ritual I must perform, no way I need to be in order to come to God. Even in the spontaneous spirit guide apparitions, does not the recipient have to be in a particular state in order to have an apparition?
If they have to be in some transcendent state, or in some kind of contemplative state or something, that requires you to do something in order to be something, even if it is not a physical act, it is a spiritual act of doing.
I would argue that with every genuine believer, prayer is exactly what I am saying, just talking to God as a child who talks to his father, actually closer because in this case, the Father knows every filthy thought, every horrible motive, every dirty thing that passes through our minds.

There is no state I have to be in, there is nothing I need to do.

It is difficult for me to answer, because to talk about spirituality in terms of 'doing' vs 'not doing' and trying to divide everything I know between the two is not the approach I'm used to have. I really can't play this that way.

I had to search for an example in the internet, this is someone writing about making a contact with 'angels and guides':

http://thewayofthewitch.com/angels---guides.html

The impression I get from reading this is that the practice is not done to be accepted by the 'celestial beings' the writer is talking about, the author writes "They are helpers and protectors and they love us all, regardless of our beliefs or life choices" - the acceptance part is already there, but the practices are done in order to tune in with these beings, to hear their voice.

But truth be told, I think it's a bit dubious to try compare Christian concept of acceptance, as there is the idea of being accepted in sense of being saved from hell, to the concept of acceptance by god/something else in some version of spirituality where there is no such thing as hell or idea of being rejected by God to begin with. If there is no assumption of being rejected by God as a default state of humanity, the whole concept of acceptance doesn't really work the same way at all.

 

[Galatea]

You are female there is a difference, I bet you will ask what's the difference.

Don't.

Because all I can say is that in and with womanhood and motherhood you are already connected.

I am not a mother, so that does not apply to my situation.

 

[Galatea]

It is difficult for me to answer, because to talk about spirituality in terms of 'doing' vs 'not doing' and trying to divide everything I know between the two is not the approach I'm used to have. I really can't play this that way.

I had to search for an example in the internet, this is someone writing about making a contact with 'angels and guides':

http://thewayofthewitch.com/angels---guides.html

The impression I get from reading this is that the practice is not done to be accepted by the 'celestial beings' the writer is talking about, the author writes "They are helpers and protectors and they love us all, regardless of our beliefs or life choices" - the acceptance part is already there, but the practices are done in order to tune in with these beings, to hear their voice.

But truth be told, I think it's a bit dubious to try compare Christian concept of acceptance, as there is the idea of being accepted in sense of being saved from hell, to the concept of acceptance by god/something else in some version of spirituality where there is no such thing as hell or idea of being rejected by God to begin with. If there is no assumption of being rejected by God as a default state of humanity, the whole concept of acceptance doesn't really work the same way at all.

But that's the thing I'm trying to tell you- there is no "tuning in" necessary with God. If something is required, it becomes religion. This is not to say all rites and rituals are wrong, I think they are wrong if it is felt to be required. If I get on my knees to pray because I want to, that is different from me believing God requires me to fall on my knees in prayer.

I am not completely conversant with religions, but don't they require things done? Rituals and works?

 

[Robban]

I am not a mother, so that does not apply to my situation.

You are female.

 

[Galatea]

You are female.

I don't think that gives me greater access to God. Enlighten me as to why women have greater connectedness to God.