MJ Only One GOD and One LORD (cont.)

[AbbaLove]

It's not just Jewish scholarship, but scholarship in general.

Here is a paragraph from an article on on Bethany University's website (an Evangelical Institution):

Reminds me of the highly educated religious scholars that appeared on Bill Moyers PBS Journal. It's only natural that they (and modern Judaism) would interpret adoni, adonai, adonee (Lord/lord) as David himself (Psalm 110:1) instead of: YAHUSHUA HA MOSCHIACH (or their preferred spelling). It's only through a personal relationship and being supernaturally Anointed by RUACH HA KODESH that the blinders are removed to see the TRUTH about Messiah Yeshua as revealed in the TaNaKh.

As highly educated as was שָׁאוּל (Sha'ul) of Tarsus he was just as blind as many of today's highly educated evangelical religious scholars.

 

[gadar perets]

As highly educated as was שָׁאוּל (Sha'ul) of Tarsus he was just as blind as many of today's highly educated evangelical religious scholars.

I hope you are only referring to him prior to his conversion.

 

[Open Heart]

You wrote, "For me, I don't think you can discount that for a hundreds of years before Christ, Jews interpreted Lord as referring to David and it made perfect sense to them (and still does)." If you have no proof of this, then you should not have written it.

Where do you think the Talmud gets its ideas from? It is oral history written down.

 

[gadar perets]

Where do you think the Talmud gets its ideas from? It is oral history written down.

You mean ideas like this:

The Talmud refers to psalm 110 when discussing Zechariah 4:14 -- "These are the two who are anointed to serve the LORD of all the earth" -- and states:

• 
  "By this meant Aaron and the Messiah, and I do not know which of them I should prefer. When it is written, 'The LORD has sworn and will not change his mind: You are a priest for ever', we know that the Messiah-King is more agreeable than the Priest of Righteousness." Avôt, Rabbi Nathan, chap. 34.
  
  Please show me one reference from the Talmud that says the "adonee" of Psalm 110:1 was David.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  

 

[Open Heart]

You mean ideas like this:

The Talmud refers to psalm 110 when discussing Zechariah 4:14 -- "These are the two who are anointed to serve the LORD of all the earth" -- and states:

• 
  "By this meant Aaron and the Messiah, and I do not know which of them I should prefer. When it is written, 'The LORD has sworn and will not change his mind: You are a priest for ever', we know that the Messiah-King is more agreeable than the Priest of Righteousness." Avôt, Rabbi Nathan, chap. 34.
  
  Please show me one reference from the Talmud that says the "adonee" of Psalm 110:1 was David.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  

I have not debated that Psalm 110 is messianic on a secondary level.

I am not a Talmudic Scholar.

If you ask an Orthodox Jew about the Messiah, their first response will be "What Messiah?" You see, they believe in many kingly Messiahs, and David is considered a Messiah. I said this before, but you have yet to answer.

Notice that Psalm 110:1 is *temporary.* The LORD says to my lord: "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet." Is that what you think of Jesus? That he will sit at the right hand of the Father temporarily?

 

[gadar perets]

I have not debated that Psalm 110 is messianic on a secondary level.

I am not a Talmudic Scholar.

All I am asking is for you to verify, with references from the Talmud, the statement you made that the adonee of Psalm 110:1 is David.

If you ask an Orthodox Jew about the Messiah, their first response will be "What Messiah?" You see, they believe in many kingly Messiahs, and David is considered a Messiah. I said this before, but you have yet to answer.

Whether the Jews believed David to be a Messiah is irrelevant. We are trying to ascertain who the speaker of Psalm 110:1 is and who is a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek. The NT confirms the speaker is David and the priest is Yeshua. If you wish to go beyond that and believe Jewish fables that David is not the speaker and that David is the priest, then provide the proof.

Notice that Psalm 110:1 is *temporary.* The LORD says to my lord: "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet." Is that what you think of Jesus? That he will sit at the right hand of the Father temporarily?

1Co 15:24 Then comes the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till He has put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For He hath put all things under his feet. But when He says all things are put under him, it is manifest that He is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto Him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.​

We are not told where Yeshua will be sitting after all enemies are under his feet, but it seems clear that he will not be sitting on his Father's throne. Messiah Yeshua will be a King forever. Perhaps he will have his own throne.

How do you understand "until" as it relates to Yeshua?

 

[Open Heart]

All I am asking is for you to verify, with references from the Talmud, the statement you made that the adonee of Psalm 110:1 is David.

And I told you, I am not a Talmudic Scholar. I only know what I was taught as an Orthodox Jew.

 

[Open Heart]

We are trying to ascertain who the speaker of Psalm 110:1 is and who is a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek. The NT confirms the speaker is David and the priest is Yeshua.

As I've said over and over, there are two levels this Psalm can be read on. Why is that so terrible to you? Almost all the messianic prophecies are actually written on an everyday level, but are given a messianic figurative meaning. On the literal level, the speaker is not David, but a poet in David's court, btw, who has written the psalm on behalf of David. He speaks in dramatic glowing flowery language of his sovereign King.

Let me give you another example of this sort of writing. "Out of Egypt I have brought my son." It's a messianic prophecy, right? But if you read it in context of the entire verse, you will see that it is describing Israel as God's son and it is talking about the Exodus: ""When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son." Hosea 11:1

We could go through messianic prophecy after messianic prophecy, and see this dual level.

 

[gadar perets]

And I told you, I am not a Talmudic Scholar. I only know what I was taught as an Orthodox Jew.

So if you are not a Talmudic Scholar, then do not say the Talmud says this or that unless you can verify it. Modern Orthodox Jews are blinded by YHWH to behold His Messiah. So they will obviously try to say the entire Psalm is about David. Be careful what you choose to believe by them, especially concerning Yeshua in the OT.

 

[gadar perets]

As I've said over and over, there are two levels this Psalm can be read on. Why is that so terrible to you? Almost all the messianic prophecies are actually written on an everyday level, but are given a messianic figurative meaning. On the literal level, the speaker is not David, but a poet in David's court, btw, who has written the psalm on behalf of David. He speaks in dramatic glowing flowery language of his sovereign King.

Let me give you another example of this sort of writing. "Out of Egypt I have brought my son." It's a messianic prophecy, right? But if you read it in context of the entire verse, you will see that it is describing Israel as God's son and it is talking about the Exodus: ""When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son." Hosea 11:1

We could go through messianic prophecy after messianic prophecy, and see this dual level.

I understand about dual prophecies such as Hosea 11:1 and I believe such prophecies are dual. Why? Because we can prove through Scripture they are dual. We cannot prove David ascended into heaven to sit at YHWH's right hand or that David is a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek. Those are assumptions designed to prove Psalm 110 is NOT about Yeshua. Those who teach Psalm 110 was not spoken by David bring reproach upon Yeshua and the NT writers by making them false teachers.

 

[AbbaLove]

As I've said over and over, there are two levels this Psalm can be read on. ... We could go through messianic prophecy after messianic prophecy, and see this dual level.

In this case the two levels (Psalm 110:1) you and gadar are discussing are: Orthodox Rabbinic Judaism ... versus ... Yeshua's Messianic Judaism, which includes NT words of Yeshua as found in Matt. 22:41-46.

Psalm 110:1 1599 GNV
The [a]Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

a. Psalm 110:1 Jesus Christ in Matt. 22:44, giveth the interpretation hereof, and showeth that this cannot properly be applied unto David but to himself.​

And I told you, I am not a Talmudic Scholar. I only know what I was taught as an Orthodox Jew.

It's common knowledge that Orthodox Judaism doesn't believe that Jesus Christ (Matt. 22:41-46) is Y'israels Moshiach. MJs know that Orthodox Jews don't believe that Psalm 110:1 is referring to Christ Jesus / Y'shua, so what exactly is your point?

Are you telling us that like Orthodox Jews that you too don't believe that Psalm 110:1 is referring to Christ Jesus? Does your Catholic Church teach that Psalm 110:1 is referring to David instead of Christ Jesus?

 

[Open Heart]

So if you are not a Talmudic Scholar, then do not say the Talmud says this or that unless you can verify it. Modern Orthodox Jews are blinded by YHWH to behold His Messiah. So they will obviously try to say the entire Psalm is about David. Be careful what you choose to believe by them, especially concerning Yeshua in the OT.

If an Orthodox Rabbi tells me that the Talmud teaches X, I will believe him. After all, he is a scholar in these matters.

 

[Open Heart]

I understand about dual prophecies such as Hosea 11:1 and I believe such prophecies are dual. Why? Because we can prove through Scripture they are dual. We cannot prove David ascended into heaven to sit at YHWH's right hand or that David is a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek. Those are assumptions designed to prove Psalm 110 is NOT about Yeshua. Those who teach Psalm 110 was not spoken by David bring reproach upon Yeshua and the NT writers by making them false teachers.

Jews believe Psalm 110 is not about Jesus. So? Jews believe Hosea 11:1 is not about the Messiah. Indeed, 95% of the verses Christians say are messianic prophecies, Jews say are not. So? Since when has that been an obstacle to us not accepting the dual meaning of such passages?

 

[Open Heart]

Are you telling us that like Orthodox Jews that you too don't believe that Psalm 110:1 is referring to Christ Jesus? Does your Catholic Church teach that Psalm 110:1 is referring to David instead of Christ Jesus?[/QUOTE]
I'm saying that I'm both a Jew and a Christian. Like an Orthodox Jew I believe it is about David (as do many Christian scholars) and as a Christian I believe it is about Yeshua.

 

[gadar perets]

If an Orthodox Rabbi tells me that the Talmud teaches X, I will believe him. After all, he is a scholar in these matters.

Scary! I don't take anyone's word for anything concerning Scripture. If an Orthodox Rabbi told me the Talmud teaches Psalm 110:1 is about David, I would ask for references instead of blindly believing him.

 

[gadar perets]

Jews believe Psalm 110 is not about Jesus. So? Jews believe Hosea 11:1 is not about the Messiah. Indeed, 95% of the verses Christians say are messianic prophecies, Jews say are not. So? Since when has that been an obstacle to us not accepting the dual meaning of such passages?

I don't recall saying the Jews themselves were an obstacle. The obstacle is having no Scriptural proof regardless of who makes such claims.

 

[gadar perets]

Are you telling us that like Orthodox Jews that you too don't believe that Psalm 110:1 is referring to Christ Jesus? Does your Catholic Church teach that Psalm 110:1 is referring to David instead of Christ Jesus?

I'm saying that I'm both a Jew and a Christian. Like an Orthodox Jew I believe it is about David (as do many Christian scholars) and as a Christian I believe it is about Yeshua.[/QUOTE]
You are not consistent in that. If you were consistent, you would not reject the Orthodox Jewish belief that Yeshua is not the Messiah. I assume you reject their teaching on that because you know Scripture says otherwise. You should also reject their teaching that Psalm 110 is about David since Scripture says otherwise.

 

[AbbaLove]

I'm saying that I'm both a [Messianic] Jew and a Christian. Like an Orthodox Jew I believe it is about David (as do many Christian scholars) and as a Christian I believe it is about Yeshua.

Is it even possible to be both an Orthodox Jew
and a Christian ??​

You are implying that these many Christian scholars don't believe the words of Yeshua/Jesus as recorded in Matthew 22:42-45. Who are these many Christian scholars ??????

Complete Jewish Bible ...
41 Then, turning to the assembled P’rushim, Yeshua put a sh’eilah to them:
42 “Tell me your view concerning the Messiah: whose son is he?” They said to him, “David’s.”
43 “Then how is it,” he asked them, “that David, inspired by the Spirit, calls him ‘Lord,’ when he says,

44 ‘Adonai said to my Lord,
“Sit here at my right hand
until I put your enemies under your feet”’?​

45 If David thus calls him ‘Lord,’ how is he his son?”
46 No one could think of anything to say in reply; and from that day on, no one dared put to him another sh’eilah.

King James Version ...
41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David.
43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,

44 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?​

45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.

It's obvious from these verses that either Yeshua/Jesus is not an Orthodox Jew or Orthodox Jews have strayed off course from the Orthodoxy envisioned for them by YHWH.

 

[Open Heart]

I don't recall saying the Jews themselves were an obstacle. The obstacle is having no Scriptural proof regardless of who makes such claims.

When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.
Hosea 11:1

Please interpret this ENTIRE verse.

 

[Open Heart]

If you were consistent, you would not reject the Orthodox Jewish belief that Yeshua is not the Messiah.

I clearly identify myself as a Hebrew Catholic. I am here in this forum because I am a Messianic Jew. Obviously this means I believe Yeshua is the Messiah. I'm certain I haven't said anything to give you the wrong idea. This is entirely consistent with being a Hebrew Catholic / Messianic Jew, just as honoring Jewish tradition is.