Defining My Perception of Love

[razzelflabben]

The problem here is that the "wicked" also includes those who are perfectly decent human beings, yet simply don't buy into fantastical claims on faith alone in most interpretations of abrahamic religions. Isn't that correct?

let me help out a bit here...in the discussion that this came from it is important to understand what is being referred to when the word wicked is used. In scripture which is where the idea being discussed is coming from, wicked means those that are with sin or do something against the law that results in death. This is important to understand as we move into the next post. According to scripture...the violation of the law brings death. this is a spiritual death and is the consequence of sin not a punishment for it or some other non sense many atheists (not saying you) try to argue. Which leads us to the next post.

 

[razzelflabben]

What justice?

God is said to be just. Just means to execute the law without bias. IOW's no favoritism. If you break the law you pay the price of the law end of story. [/quote]


He loved us so much he sent his son to die for us.

Strange kind of love...[/quote] not really. Since the law requires death the question then becomes whose death. It would have to be a death without sin in order for it to qualify because all sin or in the previous post wickedness results in death. So God sending His Son, a Son who willingly btw chose to come and take our death penalty for us. There is no greater love than that. think about it in terms of our everyday lives. Husband risks his life to save his wife....parent dies saving his children...rescue worker dies protecting others...all heroic type gifts of life that we do not balk at yet here, when it comes from God Himself, you call it a strange kind of love. Maybe it is a strange kind of Love but it is the kind of Love that we are all looking for, that Love so strong and so pure that there is nothing that would stop it, not even death. What is the line from the Princess Bride? Death cannot stop true Love it can only postpone it for awhile....

How does killing another innocent human being, save anyone?

see above. The law requires death for sin. If someone dies in my place, I am "saved", I live...it's how it works.

And "just" in this context, means a human sacrifice? Really?

Just in this context means that the law was fulfilled.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

God is said to be just.

Yes, wich is the statement that I reject.

Just means to execute the law without bias

Hmmm, disagree... The law itself can be unjust.

IOW's no favoritism

And no forgiveness or mercy, as those are the suspension of justice.

If you break the law you pay the price of the law end of story.

What if the laws says that a rape victim is to be given 50 whip lashes?
What that be "just" by your definition, because it's just following "the law"?

He loved us so much he sent his son to die for us.

That makes zero sense to me.

Strange kind of love...

not really

Yes, really...

It is completely absurd to have someone killed as a sacrife "because love". It's absurd, I have no other words that sound appropriate. Well, I do... but I'll likely get banned for writing them down.

Since the law requires death the question then becomes whose death.

How about, the death of the person that is actually guilty, instead of a scapegoat?

It would have to be a death without sin in order for it to qualify because all sin or in the previous post wickedness results in death.

And... we're back to absurd.

So God sending His Son, a Son who willingly btw chose to come and take our death penalty for us. There is no greater love than that.

Sure there is. The kind of love that does NOT demand a blood sacrifice and/or killing. Seems fairly obvious.

think about it in terms of our everyday lives. Husband risks his life to save his wife....parent dies saving his children...rescue worker dies protecting others...all heroic type gifts of life that we do not balk at

Because none of those are blood sacrifices to absolve someone of their guilt.

In everyday life analogy, it would rather be something like a court judge sending his own son to death row and letting the mass murderer go free and then call it "justice".

yet here, when it comes from God Himself, you call it a strange kind of love.

Yes. Because it has nothing to do with moral or heroic behaviour and everything with human sacrifice and punishing innocent scapegoats while letting the actual guilty go free. That's not only completely absurd, I'ld say it is downright immoral and evil and the very opposite of "justice", "mercy" and "forgiveness".

Maybe it is a strange kind of Love but it is the kind of Love that we are all looking for

I don't. If you insist on calling it a "kind of love", then it's the kind that I don't want to have anything to do with.

The law requires death for sin.

If god, who supposedly decided what the law is, doesn't like this law, perhaps he should just change the law instead of creating a loophole in a system he himself created by having is son killed so that he can save us from himself.

If someone dies in my place, I am "saved", I live...it's how it works. Just in this context means that the law was fulfilled.

Again: absurd. And the very opposite of "love" and "justice".

 

[Dave-W]

That makes zero sense to me.

It is completely absurd to have someone killed as a sacrifice "because love". It's absurd, I have no other words that sound appropriate. Well, I do... but I'll likely get banned for writing them down.

1 Cor 2.13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

1 Cor 2.13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.

What a surprise. The religion itself says that all who don't agree with it are fools.

 

[razzelflabben]

Yes, wich is the statement that I reject.

on what basis? The question was asked what Just means...it means without favoritism...iow's judgment is according to the law not the whims of God...so my question for you is based on what assumptions do you disagree that God is just? specifically please.

Hmmm, disagree... The law itself can be unjust.

I'm not sure where the question was raised as to whether or not the law was just...the question was whether or not God was just. So again, what specifically makes you think the law is unjust? do you even know what law we are talking about, specifically? In a discussion with a Christian (which is what you are in) the law would be NT law of Love. If you were talking to an observant Jew it would be OT law so please be careful how you answer the question. Your basic assumption in this sentence is that Love is unjust which I think you will find a very hard position to justify.

And no forgiveness or mercy, as those are the suspension of justice.

how so? The law does not say who must die, only that death is required which is why the OT sacrifices were able to satisfy the law. If the law specified who would die for the offense it would be a different story. But since it just requires death your argument here is not valid.

What if the laws says that a rape victim is to be given 50 whip lashes?
What that be "just" by your definition, because it's just following "the law"?

now you are talking about the OT law which is Judaism...you do realize the discussion is about Christianity, right? not Judaism...as such the law we are talking about is the law of Love...shall I show you the passages? There are quite a few....thus neither of these questions applies to the discussion at hand. Now if you want to ask an observant Jew about these things feel free, but don't confuse Judaism with Christianity where they are related they are not the same thing.

That makes zero sense to me.

it's not that hard to understand...there had to be a death to satisfy the law. what is hard to understand about that? what is hard to understand about someone dieing in our place? I don't know what you are having a problem understanding about that so that I can explain it in yet another way.

Yes, really...

It is completely absurd to have someone killed as a sacrife "because love". It's absurd, I have no other words that sound appropriate. Well, I do... but I'll likely get banned for writing them down.

hum...so why should they die for someone else? Compassion which is part of Love? or guilt? Guilt over what? I don't know, I can't figure out what you don't understand. I know and get why you might not agree or accept but I can't figure out what you don't understand. If you were more specific maybe I could address it so that we could understand one another better.

How about, the death of the person that is actually guilty, instead of a scapegoat?

that would be just...Love would be someone else taking the place. It's not that hard to understand.

And... we're back to absurd.

how so? You have to give me more than this to understand what you are not understanding here.

Sure there is. The kind of love that does NOT demand a blood sacrifice and/or killing. Seems fairly obvious.

hum...let me take a stab in the dark...are you having a problem understanding this concept because instead of seeing the sacrifice of Christ as the demonstration of Love you are seeing the law as some sort of demonstration of love? That would be backwards and would explain why you can't understand. I will wait for your reply in case I am still wrong in understanding what you are not understanding about this concept.

Because none of those are blood sacrifices to absolve someone of their guilt.

hum...okay, fair enough but I wasn't offering them as a way of showing that Christ was our blood sacrifice I was offering them as a demonstration of how you are not understanding the substitution concept. So, let's start there, do you understand how a substitution is an act of Love? Yes or no? We will come back around to the absolving of guilt once we find out if this is what is stopping you from understanding.

In everyday life analogy, it would rather be something like a court judge sending his own son to death row and letting the mass murderer go free and then call it "justice".

not exactly, but again I think you might be mixing some stuff up the reason it isn't making sense to you. this is sort of right and sort of wrong...you see, the son would have to offer himself willingly and the murderer would have to repent which means turn from and never do it again...on top of that there would have to be a law that said that death row was the only punishment and that a substitution was possible...see, you are missing a lot of stuff.

Yes. Because it has nothing to do with moral or heroic behaviour and everything with human sacrifice and punishing innocent scapegoats while letting the actual guilty go free. That's not only completely absurd, I'ld say it is downright immoral and evil and the very opposite of "justice", "mercy" and "forgiveness".

but no one is just letting the guilty go free...you have to understand this from a scriptural standpoint. the only way the substitution can be made is if the guilty confess and repent which means to turn from the sin that they are guilty of. IOWs they do not repeat the offense. that is one of the huge things you seem to be missing there are few others but that seems to be the glaring one.

I don't. If you insist on calling it a "kind of love", then it's the kind that I don't want to have anything to do with.

that is up to you but I don't think it is "fair" to make that decision based on a false understanding of what is being said. I mean it is my right to do so but personally I find it important to understand a concept before I just dismiss it as wrong...I guess that is the difference between you and me. I want to understand something before I judge it, you want to judge it without understanding according to this...not sure how you hope to know truth that way but I hope you find the peace that comes with truth.

If god, who supposedly decided what the law is, doesn't like this law, perhaps he should just change the law instead of creating a loophole in a system he himself created by having is son killed so that he can save us from himself.

but how would He go about doing that? You see, it is the natural Law not a created one. IOW's it is the nature of sin and a Holy God, not a God who is sitting there saying, "hum, let's make a new law.." that would be like saying, I fell and got hurt, let's just change the law of gravity and everything will be fine....that is absurd if you ask me.

Again: absurd. And the very opposite of "love" and "justice".

not any love I know of much less any justice. In my understanding love and justice are companions it is when we try to separate them that we run into problems....but maybe that has to do with understanding a concept before judging it as right or wrong....

 

[razzelflabben]

What a surprise. The religion itself says that all who don't agree with it are fools.

Actually, I think the point of the passage was to point out that if you don't have a spiritual knowledge you will not be able to understand spiritual things which is like common sense....for example, if you don't have knowledge of rocket fuel, you won't understand rocket fuel is a pretty common sense statement much like the spiritual statement above.

 

[Ken Rank]

The problem here is that the "wicked" also includes those who are perfectly decent human beings, yet simply don't buy into fantastical claims on faith alone in most interpretations of abrahamic religions. Isn't that correct?

I don't pretend to be God, only He can see the heart and salvation is not a doctrinal thing, it is a heart condition. Since only He can see the heart, then I will not attempt to supplant Him and His job as judge. I think God's mercy is greater than most tend to realize and I also think that "wicked" is simply "that which stands in opposition to His character."

By the way, I don't buy into a lot of the fantastic claims either. However, I do not hold God responsible for those who do not present Him in a manner consistent with His character. Peace!

 

[Galatea]

I can't help thinking that this sounds a bit on-off - view on love and forgiveness.

I think it in a way that our capability to forgive and forget is as imperfect as everything else in our human love is. It means that sometimes we love, but can't forgive. Just as we might love, but still be afraid.

I don't see forgiveness as a special case in that regard, it's part of human love, and as such it's just as imperfect as the rest of it.

I think this may be the distinction between Christians and people who are not saved. Forgiveness is all bound up in love for us. Because we have been forgiven for all our sins and transgressions, we can forgive others. It's not natural, it's supernatural. It is Christ within us. I've heard of accounts, one in particular, of people forgiving what we as humans see as the unforgivable. The single most satanic sin to me is the abuse of children. I watched the testimony of a man who had been sexually abused and abused in other ways by his stepfather. The man had a lot of problems growing up (understandably). He became a Christian and found out that his stepfather was dying. He came to see him and told him he forgave him and loved him. He told him about Jesus, hoping his stepfather would get saved before he died- because the man loved his stepfather. This is supernatural, this kind of forgiveness. I think this is what we mean about Jesus being love- He is love because he forgives. They're two sides of the same coin to Christians.

 

[Jack of Spades]

I think this may be the distinction between Christians and people who are not saved. Forgiveness is all bound up in love for us. Because we have been forgiven for all our sins and transgressions, we can forgive others. It's not natural, it's supernatural. It is Christ within us. I've heard of accounts, one in particular, of people forgiving what we as humans see as the unforgivable. The single most satanic sin to me is the abuse of children. I watched the testimony of a man who had been sexually abused and abused in other ways by his stepfather. The man had a lot of problems growing up (understandably). He became a Christian and found out that his stepfather was dying. He came to see him and told him he forgave him and loved him. He told him about Jesus, hoping his stepfather would get saved before he died- because the man loved his stepfather. This is supernatural, this kind of forgiveness. I think this is what we mean about Jesus being love- He is love because he forgives. They're two sides of the same coin to Christians.

I often read about lives of saints and that kind of extreme forgiveness is one of the common themes in saint legends. So, I am familiar with the Christian ideals of absolutes in forgiveness.

But, to explain further my point of view, as I said earlier, I believe that every feeling has it's place. Unforgiveness, or bitterness, or hatred, whatever we call it, is there to protect us from further harm.

If I put goldfish and a shark in the same pool, and tell the goldfish to just forgive the shark every time it eats one of them, there won't soon be any goldfish.

I'm not saying that every hurt is unforgivable, but I'm saying that unforgiveness can be a very healthy, natural defense mechanism to keep us out of the harms way. I can many times forgive when I know things have changed and it's time to let go. But if I forgive when nothing has changed, that can be dangerous. Not just dangerous for me, but possibly for others, especially if I happened to be responsible of someone elses well-being (like f.e. if I had kids, I don't, but it's the most obvious example).

 

[Galatea]

I often read about lives of saints and that kind of extreme forgiveness is one of the common themes in saint legends. So, I am familiar with the Christian ideals of absolutes in forgiveness.

But, to explain further my point of view, as I said earlier, I believe that every feeling has it's place. Unforgiveness, or bitterness, or hatred, whatever we call it, is there to protect us from further harm.

If I put goldfish and a shark in the same pool, and tell the goldfish to just forgive the shark every time it eats one of them, there won't soon be any goldfish.

I'm not saying that every hurt is unforgivable, but I'm saying that unforgiveness can be a very healthy, natural defense mechanism to keep us out of the harms way. I can many times forgive when I know things have changed and it's time to let go. But if I forgive when nothing has changed, that can be dangerous. Not just dangerous for me, but possibly for others, especially if I happened to be responsible of someone elses well-being (like f.e. if I had kids, I don't, but it's the most obvious example).

Unforgiveness is different from bitterness and hatred. I think you can forgive even when nothing has changed. I personally know people who have forgiven people for sins- yet the person did not change- or even ask for forgiveness at all. The person in the wrong did not think they had done anything to warrant asking forgiveness.
You're right, I wouldn't put children in harm's way. Let's say a person had been sexually abused, like this man in this scenario. He forgave and loved his stepfather, but I highly doubt he would put his own children in his stepfather's presence. This doesn't mean he doesn't forgive and love him. It just means he is using good sense. Your mental acuity doesn't have to go out the door with forgiveness.

 

[Jack of Spades]

Unforgiveness is different from bitterness and hatred.

Well, it's a matter of definition of the words, I suppose. We might use a little bit different terms for each. I would say that those three are at the very least, somewhere in the same direction on human emotional map.

I think you can forgive even when nothing has changed. I personally know people who have forgiven people for sins- yet the person did not change- or even ask for forgiveness at all. The person in the wrong did not think they had done anything to warrant asking forgiveness.

Again, depends what we mean by forgiveness. Is it restoration, or forgetting and moving on, or does it just mean to stop seeking revenge and letting the pieces lay where they landed when things went wrong.

You're right, I wouldn't put children in harm's way. Let's say a person had been sexually abused, like this man in this scenario. He forgave and loved his stepfather, but I highly doubt he would put his own children in his stepfather's presence. This doesn't mean he doesn't forgive and love him. It just means he is using good sense. Your mental acuity doesn't have to go out the door with forgiveness.

Unfortunately, the idea of "absolute forgiving" where there is no room for any common sense, or justice, is a real plague in some Christian circles.

Sometimes the forgiveness - teaching is deliberately abused by some spiritual leaders, by demanding forgiveness from Christians whom they, or their buddies, have hurt, only to continue their bad ways free from justice. I have heard a lot of horror stories about that. The pressure to forgive powerful people in a church is one of the standard forms of spiritual abuse in Christian churches.

 

[Galatea]

Well, it's a matter of definition of the words, I suppose. We might use a little bit different terms for each. I would say that those three are at the very least, somewhere in the same direction on human emotional map.



Again, depends what we mean by forgiveness. Is it restoration, or forgetting and moving on, or does it just mean to stop seeking revenge and letting the pieces lay where they landed when things went wrong.



Unfortunately, the idea of "absolute forgiving" where there is no room for any common sense, or justice, is a real plague in some Christian circles.

Sometimes the forgiveness - teaching is deliberately abused by some spiritual leaders, by demanding forgiveness from Christians whom they, or their buddies, have hurt, only to continue their bad ways free from justice. I have heard a lot of horror stories about that. The pressure to forgive powerful people in a church is one of the standard forms of spiritual abuse in Christian churches.

I like precision in words, though. I make a distinction between the three- unforgiveness, bitterness, and hatred.

Forgiveness can mean any of the three. It can be restoration- such as when people accept Christ as Savior, this is restoration. It can be letting go of your rights to be avenged. I will go ahead and tell you what I meant by forgiving someone who never asked for forgiveness and was forgiven anyway. I was referring to my own father who had emotionally and physically abused us. He never apologized, owned up to what he did, and blamed my mother. Before I was saved, I hated him and wanted him dead. I fantasized about killing him myself. I believe I would have, except I was a kid and had no means of doing so. I tell you this to demonstrate the level of hatred and unforgiveness in my heart. After I was saved, the minute I was saved, God took the hate from me and unforgiveness. I had forgiven him a long time ago, even though he never asked and even though he has done some terrible things since. I don't hate him or am bitter toward him. There is no restoration in the fact that we don't have a father/daughter relationship. But I let go of hatred and bitterness. This would not be possible if it were just me. It had to be the Spirit within me. It is supernatural, not natural.

Revenge has no place in Christianity. I don't think Christians seek revenge- not if they are walking close to God. God tells us expressly not to seek revenge, but to love our enemies. Do good to them, pray for them who persecute you and spitefully use you. Revenge is not to be in a Christian's repertoire.

I agree that you can't allow people who have been abusive to keep abusing. For example, if a person was abusing children in a church, of course you can forgive them. But it would be sinful to allow the person around children or not report the crime to the police.

Forgiveness doesn't necessarily mean the person does not pay for their crimes. I have had a long talk with my mother about a hypothetical scenario. I am a teacher and we talked about what might possibly happen if a shooter came to my school. I told her that I would have to protect my students at all costs, even if that means I must die. She understands and I told her that I know it would be hard, but I would want her to forgive the shooter. This is important to me. This doesn't mean that I think the shooter should not go to prison, but I would want my mother to forgive and love this person in order to witness Christ to him so he might get saved.

After the shooting in South Carolina, I remember many of the parishioners telling the shooter that they forgive him. This is what I mean by Love and Forgiveness being two sides of the same coin.

This song says it better than I can: Incidentally, it was the song we sang every week when I lead a youth group.

 

[razzelflabben]

I often read about lives of saints and that kind of extreme forgiveness is one of the common themes in saint legends. So, I am familiar with the Christian ideals of absolutes in forgiveness.

But, to explain further my point of view, as I said earlier, I believe that every feeling has it's place. Unforgiveness, or bitterness, or hatred, whatever we call it, is there to protect us from further harm.

If I put goldfish and a shark in the same pool, and tell the goldfish to just forgive the shark every time it eats one of them, there won't soon be any goldfish.

I'm not saying that every hurt is unforgivable, but I'm saying that unforgiveness can be a very healthy, natural defense mechanism to keep us out of the harms way. I can many times forgive when I know things have changed and it's time to let go. But if I forgive when nothing has changed, that can be dangerous. Not just dangerous for me, but possibly for others, especially if I happened to be responsible of someone elses well-being (like f.e. if I had kids, I don't, but it's the most obvious example).

I would beg to differ a bit. I grew up in a dysfunctional home, let's just leave it at that for the moment. My mental and spiritual health required me to forgive my abusers, all of them. But forgiveness does NOT mean forgetting for anyone but God who is able to see the heart. IOW's I forgave but I didn't forget. this not forgetting means that I could protect myself as much as was possible while experiencing the freedom of forgiving others.

Many people confuse forgiveness and reconciliation as you seem to be doing here. they are two different things. to reconcile something means to put it back to a state of the offense having not happened...not the technical definition but close enough to make my point. Forgiveness means I do not hold it against you any longer. We see this difference played out in Christ on the cross where He prayed "forgive them for they know not what they do"...He forgave them before they ever offered themselves to be reconciled to Him. Scripture calls all believers to both forgive and reconcile. the problem is that not everyone we know is willing to reconcile, but they don't have to be willing in order for me to forgive them.

Even in my own family, my father would apologize even cry then before the tears were dry, do the same exact things over and over again. I could forgive him for that, much as Christ forgave on the cross, by understanding that he didn't understand what he was doing, but because he never wanted to reconcile, reconciliation between he and I never happened. We will see with some of the other abusers if they will be willing to reconcile or not before they die.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I don't pretend to be God, only He can see the heart and salvation is not a doctrinal thing, it is a heart condition. Since only He can see the heart, then I will not attempt to supplant Him and His job as judge. I think God's mercy is greater than most tend to realize and I also think that "wicked" is simply "that which stands in opposition to His character."

I encounter this "excuse" a lot. I usually just respond by asking "according to your theology, what will happen to me if I die as an atheist?".

 

[smithed64]

What justice?

Justice -
: the process or result of using laws to fairly judge and punish crimes and criminals

• 
  : a judge in a court of law

Strange kind of love...

Not really. It was the ultimate sacrifice for us to be cleansed of our sins. It had to happen. He went to that cross carry our sins, yet he never sinned. He paid the price, for us breaking the law. So that we wouldn't have to pay it. He finished that payment with His life.
The ultimate love.

How does killing another innocent human being, save anyone?

No other human being is innocent. We are fallen man. We are born with sin in our hearts.
There is no one good, except God. There is no one righteous, not one of us.
The only innocent that was crucified for us. Was Christ.

And "just" in this context, means a human sacrifice? Really?

No, just has do with the judgment of man. God is loving, good and righteous. Therefore He must also be just. He hates sin and punishes those who sin against Him. Because everytime you sin, you do so against Him. You break His laws and are called a transgressor and sin is the transgressing of God's laws.

 

[Jack of Spades]

I like precision in words, though. I make a distinction between the three- unforgiveness, bitterness, and hatred.

I appreciate precision in words as a general rule. But in this case, when talking about human feelings and attitudes, they tend to exist in clumps, and it's both difficult and (for me) irrelevant to define exactly where one feeling ends and another one begins.

Forgiveness can mean any of the three. It can be restoration- such as when people accept Christ as Savior, this is restoration. It can be letting go of your rights to be avenged. I will go ahead and tell you what I meant by forgiving someone who never asked for forgiveness and was forgiven anyway. I was referring to my own father who had emotionally and physically abused us. He never apologized, owned up to what he did, and blamed my mother. Before I was saved, I hated him and wanted him dead. I fantasized about killing him myself. I believe I would have, except I was a kid and had no means of doing so. I tell you this to demonstrate the level of hatred and unforgiveness in my heart. After I was saved, the minute I was saved, God took the hate from me and unforgiveness. I had forgiven him a long time ago, even though he never asked and even though he has done some terrible things since. I don't hate him or am bitter toward him. There is no restoration in the fact that we don't have a father/daughter relationship. But I let go of hatred and bitterness. This would not be possible if it were just me. It had to be the Spirit within me. It is supernatural, not natural.

Thank you for sharing this and I'm sorry about your childhood tragedies. If you found the freedom to move on in forgiveness, that's nothing but a great thing.

Very often we don't have the power to change things in any way, so it's basically the only option we have left when wronged, for the sake of our own mental well-being, to forgive and forget and let it go.

It would probably be a different kind of choice in a situation where we actually could possess the means to seek payback, without getting in any kind of trouble for doing that. Then the question of forgiveness wouldn't be a necessity, the only realistic option left, that it tends to so often be for a common person.

Revenge has no place in Christianity. I don't think Christians seek revenge- not if they are walking close to God. God tells us expressly not to seek revenge, but to love our enemies. Do good to them, pray for them who persecute you and spitefully use you. Revenge is not to be in a Christian's repertoire.

That's a pretty high ideal. I must also say that to date I haven't seen really much to convince me that this ideal would be the actual way of living for the Christians I know.

My opinion is that I think it's better to have realistic, but honest ideals, rather than very high ideals that nobody actually puts in practice.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Justice -
: the process or result of using laws to fairly judge and punish crimes and criminals

• 
  : a judge in a court of law

Can laws and judges be unjust?

For example, suppose a judge in Nazi Germany sends someone to prison simply because he is a jew and there happens to be laws that forbid being a jew.

Would you call it "justice" that a Jew gets send to prison for being Jew, because the law happens to be that way?

I'll go ahead and assume that you wouldn't call that "just".
So clearly, what is "just" and what isn't, isn't solely defined by laws and court rulings, wouldn't you say?

Not really. It was the ultimate sacrifice for us to be cleansed of our sins. It had to happen

Why did it HAVE to happen?

He went to that cross carry our sins, yet he never sinned. He paid the price, for us breaking the law. So that we wouldn't have to pay it. He finished that payment with His life. The ultimate love.

If your daughter gets raped and killed and the judge of the courtcase sends his own son to death row while letting the guilty go free... Would you say that justice has been served?

I'll go ahead and assume that you wouldn't be satisfied by that ruling.

So please explain the difference.

No other human being is innocent. We are fallen man. We are born with sin in our hearts. There is no one good, except God. There is no one righteous, not one of us.
The only innocent that was crucified for us. Was Christ.

So how does killing an innocent one change anything about the guilt of the guilty?

No, just has do with the judgment of man. God is loving, good and righteous. Therefore He must also be just. He hates sin and punishes those who sin against Him. Because everytime you sin, you do so against Him. You break His laws and are called a transgressor and sin is the transgressing of God's laws.

And when he kills his son, all is well again?
How does that make sense?

 

[razzelflabben]

Thank you for sharing this and I'm sorry about your childhood tragedies. If you found the freedom to move on in forgiveness, that's nothing but a great thing.

Very often we don't have the power to change things in any way, so it's basically the only option we have left when wronged, for the sake of our own mental well-being, to forgive and forget and let it go.

that seems to me to be the point...forgiveness is often a supernatural thing...aka God in us.

That's a pretty high ideal. I must also say that to date I haven't seen really much to convince me that this ideal would be the actual way of living for the Christians I know.

My opinion is that I think it's better to have realistic, but honest ideals, rather than very high ideals that nobody actually puts in practice.

every true believer I know lives in this most of the time.

 

[Jack of Spades]

every true believer I know lives in this most of the time.

Oh cmon, just read the political boards of CF for a while... If that's what "loving your enemy" looks like, I'd hate to see what hating ones enemy means. And that is not even a proper enemy, just political differencies.