Defining My Perception of Love

[razzelflabben]

Oh cmon, just read the political boards of CF for a while... If that's what "loving your enemy" looks like, I'd hate to see what hating ones enemy means. And that is not even a proper enemy, just political differencies.

you said it yourself...that is a political difference not a loving your enemies not to mention that not everyone who calls themselves a Christ is a follower of Christ or what is also called a true believer, which was the point I started out making and is consistent with scripture

 

[Galatea]

I appreciate precision in words as a general rule. But in this case, when talking about human feelings and attitudes, they tend to exist in clumps, and it's both difficult and (for me) irrelevant to define exactly where one feeling ends and another one begins.



Thank you for sharing this and I'm sorry about your childhood tragedies. If you found the freedom to move on in forgiveness, that's nothing but a great thing.

Very often we don't have the power to change things in any way, so it's basically the only option we have left when wronged, for the sake of our own mental well-being, to forgive and forget and let it go.

It would probably be a different kind of choice in a situation where we actually could possess the means to seek payback, without getting in any kind of trouble for doing that. Then the question of forgiveness wouldn't be a necessity, the only realistic option left, that it tends to so often be for a common person.



That's a pretty high ideal. I must also say that to date I haven't seen really much to convince me that this ideal would be the actual way of living for the Christians I know.

My opinion is that I think it's better to have realistic, but honest ideals, rather than very high ideals that nobody actually puts in practice.

I don't think forgiveness is a practicality, a way to preserve yourself or the only way to go. I think it's actually much harder to forgive and love someone who has harmed you than to hold a grudge, holding grudges is easy. Feeling outraged that you've been wronged is the easier path. Forgiveness is the harder route.

Not seeking revenge is not an ideal, it is something God has told us is not for Christians. In chapter 12 of Romans, God tells us how Christians should behave. Verses 17-21 tell us how to behave toward people who are not Christians. "Recompense no man evil for evil. Provides things honest in the sight of all men. If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Therefore, if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst give him drink; for so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome with evil, but overcome evil with good."

This is not to say Christians are perfect, we are not. I became wrathful a few months ago over a perceived wrong. It was foolish and not Christ-like behavior. I have since asked the person to forgive me, but I don't think he can. I have asked God to forgive me, too.

I don't know if the Christians you are referring to about revenge are actually Christians are Christians in name only, I mean people who identify with Christianity and agree with it, but are unconverted. I don't know of any converted Christians who seek revenge against others. It is antipathetic to what Christianity is all about.

As to my personal experience, the forgiveness was impossible in me- it was not in me to forgive. I was only able to forgive after being converted. This is what I meant by it being supernatural.

 

[Galatea]

Can laws and judges be unjust?

For example, suppose a judge in Nazi Germany sends someone to prison simply because he is a jew and there happens to be laws that forbid being a jew.

Would you call it "justice" that a Jew gets send to prison for being Jew, because the law happens to be that way?

I'll go ahead and assume that you wouldn't call that "just".
So clearly, what is "just" and what isn't, isn't solely defined by laws and court rulings, wouldn't you say?



Why did it HAVE to happen?



If your daughter gets raped and killed and the judge of the courtcase sends his own son to death row while letting the guilty go free... Would you say that justice has been served?

I'll go ahead and assume that you wouldn't be satisfied by that ruling.

So please explain the difference.



So how does killing an innocent one change anything about the guilt of the guilty?



And when he kills his son, all is well again?
How does that make sense?

So how does killing an innocent one change anything about the guilt of the guilty?

In Christianity, it does not change the guilt of the guilty. We are still guilty- but blameless. It is being covered by the blood, in Christ.

It's not justice, it is mercy. Justice would be for all mankind to go to Hell. We're not a sweet bunch (except for babies and children, but I digress). Think about the Passover while the Jews were in Egypt. What did God ask them to do in order to flee His justice? He asked them to put the blood of an innocent lamb over the door sills. And when He saw the blood, He passed over the house. He would have passed over Pharoah's house too, if he had put the blood over his house. This is a picture of Christ. Maybe there were some pretty sorry Jews that got passed over. Drunks, men who beat their wives, liars, etc. etc. But God passed over them if they put the blood of the lamb over their doors. This is mercy and not justice.

God is holy and can not commune with an unholy people. He loves us, though, and wants us with Him. He knew Adam and Eve would fall, that's why He had the cosmic plan to save us by the sacrifice of Christ. The Bible says He was slain from the foundation of the world. God had this plan all along. He is holy, but can't let us in Heaven as we are- still in sin. Christ died for us, and if we accept the substitutionary (sp) payment, we don't get God's justice. We get His mercy.

It doesn't change our guilt one iota. We know we're guilty and deserving of Hell and separation from a Holy God. We just accept the gift of Christ's sacrifice and now we are placed in Him.

 

[Jack of Spades]

you said it yourself...that is a political difference not a loving your enemies not to mention that not everyone who calls themselves a Christ is a follower of Christ or what is also called a true believer, which was the point I started out making and is consistent with scripture

I don't know if I am just being cynical, but to me this sounds like a rhetoric strategy to deny the obvious.

I don't think forgiveness is a practicality, a way to preserve yourself or the only way to go. I think it's actually much harder to forgive and love someone who has harmed you than to hold a grudge, holding grudges is easy. Feeling outraged that you've been wronged is the easier path. Forgiveness is the harder route.

Not seeking revenge is not an ideal, it is something God has told us is not for Christians. In chapter 12 of Romans, God tells us how Christians should behave. Verses 17-21 tell us how to behave toward people who are not Christians. "Recompense no man evil for evil. Provides things honest in the sight of all men. If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Therefore, if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst give him drink; for so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome with evil, but overcome evil with good."

This is not to say Christians are perfect, we are not. I became wrathful a few months ago over a perceived wrong. It was foolish and not Christ-like behavior. I have since asked the person to forgive me, but I don't think he can. I have asked God to forgive me, too.

I don't know if the Christians you are referring to about revenge are actually Christians are Christians in name only, I mean people who identify with Christianity and agree with it, but are unconverted. I don't know of any converted Christians who seek revenge against others. It is antipathetic to what Christianity is all about.

As to my personal experience, the forgiveness was impossible in me- it was not in me to forgive. I was only able to forgive after being converted. This is what I meant by it being supernatural.

You seem to put very heavy emphasis on conversion and assume that alone transforms people into somewhat saintly life. I can't really say much about it, other than that I disagree with that kind of view on my fellow humans. I don't judge people's moral character based on their confessed faith.

Some people convert to Christianity and become very neurotic and judgmental, some others convert and become better than they were. The same goes for Pagans or atheists. Everyone is an individual, and has their vices and virtues, some more vices or virtues than others. I simply can not judge people based on such on/off - lines as "true Christian or not".

 

[Galatea]

I don't know if I am just being cynical, but to me this sounds like a rhetoric strategy to deny the obvious.



You seem to put very heavy emphasis on conversion and assume that alone transforms people into somewhat saintly life. I can't really say much about it, other than that I disagree with that kind of view on my fellow humans. I don't judge people's moral character based on their confessed faith.

Some people convert to Christianity and become very neurotic and judgmental, some others convert and become better than they were. The same goes for Pagans or atheists. Everyone is an individual, and has their vices and virtues, some more vices or virtues than others. I simply can not judge people based on such on/off - lines as "true Christian or not".

I think you miss what I mean about forgiveness. I think forgiveness might have to be a supernatural gift when the wrong is severe- like the man I talked about earlier who was abused. I wish I could remember his name, but his stepfather basically ruined his whole life. The fact that the man could forgive him and love him is supernatural. Louis Zamperini forgave his Japanese torturer after Zamperinin became a Christian. This is a supernatural kind of forgiveness that is not in human nature. Of course people can forgive others without supernatural means. I can forgive someone for cutting me off in traffic, etc. I meant that sometimes, forgiveness has to come from God working through us. I know that it was not in me, naturally, to forgive my father of the things he had done to my family.

It is not a question of morality, I don't think. A person could be upright and moral on the outside while harboring unforgiveness on the inside. Morality is outside behavior, not the inside state of the heart.

There are scores of people who are not Christians who are moral and scores of Christians who are not moral (carnal Christians who have no or little rewards in Heaven. I Corinthians 3:15 "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." There are going to be a lot of us in Heaven smelling of sulfur, with no rewards.)

Man looks on the outward appearance, but God looks on the heart. The neurotic and judgmental Christians (which I assume you mean me, lol) are just as much saved as the saintly. It comes down to mercy and not justice.

There is a distinction between people who agree with Christianity on an intellectual level, but are unconverted. Romans 10:9-13 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on Him shall not be ashamed, For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon Him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

This has nothing to do with morality, but the state of the heart toward God. There are Pagans, Atheists, Bhuddists, etc. who are moral people and lovely. This is not what I mean at all. I meant the state of the heart and not of behavior.

 

[Jack of Spades]

I think you miss what I mean about forgiveness. I think forgiveness might have to be a supernatural gift when the wrong is severe- like the man I talked about earlier who was abused. I wish I could remember his name, but his stepfather basically ruined his whole life. The fact that the man could forgive him and love him is supernatural. Louis Zamperini forgave his Japanese torturer after Zamperinin became a Christian. This is a supernatural kind of forgiveness that is not in human nature. Of course people can forgive others without supernatural means. I can forgive someone for cutting me off in traffic, etc. I meant that sometimes, forgiveness has to come from God working through us. I know that it was not in me, naturally, to forgive my father of the things he had done to my family.

It is not a question of morality, I don't think. A person could be upright and moral on the outside while harboring unforgiveness on the inside. Morality is outside behavior, not the inside state of the heart.

There are scores of people who are not Christians who are moral and scores of Christians who are not moral (carnal Christians who have no or little rewards in Heaven. I Corinthians 3:15 "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." There are going to be a lot of us in Heaven smelling of sulfur, with no rewards.)

Okay, thanks for adding colors to the impression which seemed to me a bit black and white.

Man looks on the outward appearance, but God looks on the heart. The neurotic and judgmental Christians (which I assume you mean me, lol) are just as much saved as the saintly. It comes down to mercy and not justice.

No I wasn't thinking of you there.

What I was thinking when I said "neurotic" were some people I have personally known who are very judgmental over very irrelevant things such as rock music, smoking, dancing and alike, and are quick to pick on those in other people, while having zero sense of even any normal good manners etc. It comes off as neurotic.

Look, I am not shy about being straightforward with people I have a problem with, (if you don't believe me, just read my posting history with some other posters here). I wouldn't need to make insinuations like that, if I had a problem with you I could just spill it out.

There is a distinction between people who agree with Christianity on an intellectual level, but are unconverted. Romans 10:9-13 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on Him shall not be ashamed, For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon Him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

This has nothing to do with morality, but the state of the heart toward God. There are Pagans, Atheists, Bhuddists, etc. who are moral people and lovely. This is not what I mean at all. I meant the state of the heart and not of behavior.

Thanks for clearing it out, it sounds much less absolutist that way. In fact, it's not very far from my own beliefs in the past.

 

[razzelflabben]

I don't know if I am just being cynical, but to me this sounds like a rhetoric strategy to deny the obvious.

naw, just the truth as scripture gives it...iow's what scripture tells us about those who follow and what we see lived out in the real world that testifies to the same. For example, let's take the real world as an example. Let's say that I go out and kill a mass of people and claim that I did so in the power and authority of the USA. Would that mean I was acting on behalf of the USA or that I made that claim? Obviously it would mean I was claiming but lacked backing of the people. Likewise, not everyone who says they are following or living in or believe in Christ are doing so in His authority and power. When we talk about true followers or true believers have one thing in common...the power and authority of the Living God. It's not that hard of a concept if you understand that God is real, which is not the general belief of atheist

You seem to put very heavy emphasis on conversion and assume that alone transforms people into somewhat saintly life. I can't really say much about it, other than that I disagree with that kind of view on my fellow humans. I don't judge people's moral character based on their confessed faith.

I hate it when people quote two different posters in the same response as if we were just one big idea and thought...and just for the record that isn't how I view what this poster is saying at all.

Some people convert to Christianity and become very neurotic and judgmental, some others convert and become better than they were. The same goes for Pagans or atheists. Everyone is an individual, and has their vices and virtues, some more vices or virtues than others. I simply can not judge people based on such on/off - lines as "true Christian or not".

Scripture tells us that we will know true believers by their LOVE...seems pretty straight forward...if God is real then there will be a real difference when one accepts His authority in their lives.

 

[smithed64]

Can laws and judges be unjust?

Man laws and judges....sure they can.

For example, suppose a judge in Nazi Germany sends someone to prison simply because he is a jew and there happens to be laws that forbid being a jew.

Again, I agree, unjust.

Would you call it "justice" that a Jew gets send to prison for being Jew, because the law happens to be that way?

Again unjust. Christ wouldn't have that law anyway...He is Jewish.

I'll go ahead and assume that you wouldn't call that "just".
So clearly, what is "just" and what isn't, isn't solely defined by laws and court rulings, wouldn't you say?

There are laws written by man that is obviously unjust. Just as there are those that are written correctly and then interpreted unjustly by Man. How many men have been arrested for rape and imprisoned for years and were innocent the whole time?

You see. Man is fallible. God isn't. He's perfect in every way. So His justice will be perfect in every way. There will be no sinner make to Heaven. And there will be no Child of God going to Hell.
God, doesn't judge you on a whim. If you broke His law. He will know it. If you repented of your sins and place your trust in Jesus. Your sins have been forgiven and no longer remembered. And God will know that to.
You will never get away with anything with God. He will in no way let the guilty go free.

Why did it HAVE to happen?

Because we are sinners. Because we think our ways are right.

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

While in sin, you are a walking dead man without Christ. With Christ is life because of His righteousness.

Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

If your daughter gets raped and killed and the judge of the courtcase sends his own son to death row while letting the guilty go free... Would you say that justice has been served?

Of course not. But the judges son, isn't God now is He? He didn't carry my or your sins to his death, without Him sinning at all. Christ is God and He did take our sins and nail them to the cross. Yet He never sinned.

I'll go ahead and assume that you wouldn't be satisfied by that ruling.

So please explain the difference.

I did

So how does killing an innocent one change anything about the guilt of the guilty?

Here's the thing. It was just any innocent. It was God who came down as a man. Jesus Christ who was fully Man and fully God. Who lived and spread the Gospel of the Father. That all men to be Born Again, worship the father.
He bore our sins to the cross. Yet He had no sin.
Man isn't innocent. We have a conscience, it's a compound word meaning, con-"with" science-"knowledge"...With knowledge. We sin, knowing that it's wrong to do so. You've heard many times i'm sure.."Let your conscience be your guide". Our conscience has had the law placed there, from day one. We know if we lie, steal, murder or cheat that it's wrong.

If you have lied, your a liar, If you've stolen, your a thief, IF you have looked a person lustfully you are an adulterer at heart. If you hate your brother, you are a murderer with no eternal life in you what so ever. These a just a few of God's commandments to us He gave to Moses, commonly known as the 10 commandments. If you break just one of them you break them all.
If God were to judge you by those commandments would you go to Heaven or Hell? If you haven't repented of your sins, other words come to God with a contrite heart and broken spirit, knowing you have sinned directly against Him and ask for His forgiveness. Put those sins down, never to do them again. Jesus is just and righteous to save you.
He doesn't save you from your sins...He saves you from the wrath of God.
Which is why He went to the cross. To receive the wrath, that we so justly deserve to get.
By his grace we are saved....we are saved by unmerited favor. We broke God's laws, Not Christ But because Christ had no sin, he was the substitute for us.
If He hadn't of done it, we would have to pay that price. And to that, we would have to had to be perfect in every way, no sinning at all. Worshipping God all the time, obeying Him no matter the consequences.
We couldn't do that, because we are sinful, prideful, selfish, lustful, humans. We aren't perfect. He was.

And when he kills his son, all is well again?

Nope, sin is still here. But grace is more abound.
Just because your Born Again, doesn't mean that you won't face hard times. You will. Difference is we who are Born Again, know the God keeps His promises to us. Promises that cannot ever be experienced while living in sin.

How does that make sense?

It doesn't to you because God speaks of spiritual things.

If you have broken God's commandments, and I would highly suspect you have. It's that sin that you will be punished for. Every time you sin, you stack wrath against you with God. Because you sin directly against HIm...read Psalms 51, this will show how David prayed when He sinned against God. God's wrath is upon you and on judgment day if you have not repented that wrath will be poured upon you.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Proverbs 11:23 The desire of the righteous is only good: but the expectation of the wicked is wrath.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

This tells us that even those who claim no God or lack of evidence of God, really hold the truth in them, but hold it with unrighteousness.
No such thing as an atheist.

Right now, you should understand where you stand with God. You do that, by examining yourself. If you have broke any of the commandments. I urge you to repent of your sins and place your trust in Christ.

 

[Galatea]

Okay, thanks for adding colors to the impression which seemed to me a bit black and white.



No I wasn't thinking of you there.

What I was thinking when I said "neurotic" were some people I have personally known who are very judgmental over very irrelevant things such as rock music, smoking, dancing and alike, and are quick to pick on those in other people, while having zero sense of even any normal good manners etc. It comes off as neurotic.

Look, I am not shy about being straightforward with people I have a problem with, (if you don't believe me, just read my posting history with some other posters here). I wouldn't need to make insinuations like that, if I had a problem with you I could just spill it out.



Thanks for clearing it out, it sounds much less absolutist that way. In fact, it's not very far from my own beliefs in the past.

Okay, I'm sorry for being hypersensitive. I AM neurotic in ways, but not in the ways you mention. I like rock music myself, and if I COULD dance, I'd like that too. I think smoking is more of a health problem than anything- but so are a lot of behaviors. The people you are talking about seem like legalists to me. I agree with you that these things are irrelevant.

I am a grace believer, someone I was talking to on another forum called it Sole Fidelis or something like that, only faith. Faith only.

Sorry again for reading an accusation into it, I tend to jump to conclusions and am a bit defensive. I definitely know I need to ask God to help me change this in myself.

 

[Jack of Spades]

Okay, I'm sorry for being hypersensitive. I AM neurotic in ways, but not in the ways you mention. I like rock music myself, and if I COULD dance, I'd like that too. I think smoking is more of a health problem than anything- but so are a lot of behaviors. The people you are talking about seem like legalists to me. I agree with you that these things are irrelevant.

I am a grace believer, someone I was talking to on another forum called it Sole Fidelis or something like that, only faith. Faith only.

Sorry again for reading an accusation into it, I tend to jump to conclusions and am a bit defensive. I definitely know I need to ask God to help me change this in myself.

Maybe legalist would have been a better word for me to use there. I often randomly end up using secular psychological terminology for religious phenomenons. Those things I mentioned were just examples, not really a full description. I am sure you know what I was talking about.

No worries, a plain old misunderstanding there! We live half a world apart in different cultures and speak different first languages, so I would be a bit paranoid about you being a witch with magic powers or something if there was never any misunderstandings

 

[Jack of Spades]

It's not that hard of a concept if you understand that God is real, which is not the general belief of atheist

I am not an atheist by any definition of the word. I'm a theist.

I hate it when people quote two different posters in the same response as if we were just one big idea and thought...and just for the record that isn't how I view what this poster is saying at all.

I didn't by any means try to lump you two together. My only intention in quoting more than one user in the same post is to make less posts, so it doesn't feel like I'm spamming the thread.

 

[razzelflabben]

I am not an atheist by any definition of the word. I'm a theist.



I didn't by any means try to lump you two together. My only intention in quoting more than one user in the same post is to make less posts, so it doesn't feel like I'm spamming the thread.

just saying it is sometimes confusing

 

[Galatea]

Maybe legalist would have been a better word for me to use there. I often randomly end up using secular psychological terminology for religious phenomenons. Those things I mentioned were just examples, not really a full description. I am sure you know what I was talking about.

No worries, a plain old misunderstanding there! We live half a world apart in different cultures and speak different first languages, so I would be a bit paranoid about you being a witch with magic powers or something if there was never any misunderstandings

It's alright. I know what you mean about legalism.

I have been called a witch before, so I wouldn't mind if you did. It comes from being perceptive, but I often perceive things incorrectly, these days.

 

[Jack of Spades]

I have been called a witch before, so I wouldn't mind if you did. It comes from being perceptive, but I often perceive things incorrectly, these days.

I'm suspicious that maybe you just want me to believe that to be the case... I have seen enough magic to know that witches can be tricky like that!

 

[Galatea]

I'm suspicious that maybe you just want me to believe that to be the case... I have seen enough magic to know that witches can be tricky like that!

No, if I were a real witch, I'd be able to go back in time and undo a wrong I committed. I only wish I could perform that kind of magic.

 

[Ken Rank]

I encounter this "excuse" a lot. I usually just respond by asking "according to your theology, what will happen to me if I die as an atheist?".

I don't make excuses, and this is a lousy way to have any meaningful discussion. My answer is simple... I don't subscribe to the conclusion that an all loving, all knowing, all merciful and loving God will torture an unbeliever for eternity for either making a bad decision or none at all while in a fallen state. I would tend to think, if you were to push me on it, that one who wanted nothing to do with God would not be forced to accept God and would simply cease to exist upon death.

 

[razzelflabben]

I don't make excuses, and this is a lousy way to have any meaningful discussion. My answer is simple... I don't subscribe to the conclusion that an all loving, all knowing, all merciful and loving God will torture an unbeliever for eternity for either making a bad decision or none at all while in a fallen state. I would tend to think, if you were to push me on it, that one who wanted nothing to do with God would not be forced to accept God and would simply cease to exist upon death.

you do realize I hope that what you are talking about here is a "description" of what the world and church are teaching you to believe about hell and God and not what the Bible teaches...right?

 

[Ken Rank]

you do realize I hope that what you are talking about here is a "description" of what the world and church are teaching you to believe about hell and God and not what the Bible teaches...right?

If I understand your question correctly, yes would be my answer. I think the church in many denominational circles uses shame, guilt and fear to grow... even if they do so unknowingly. Is the God of love, peace, and joy really an angry ogre looking for people to punish? Of course not... that picture is of a pagan god as drawn by a people who don't understand the OT at all. I think God is looking for any and every excuse to save His created. That doesn't mean I am a universalist by any stretch of the imagination... but the whole "burning in hell" concept just stands against the shem (name - character) of YHWH.

 

[razzelflabben]

If I understand your question correctly, yes would be my answer. I think the church in many denominational circles uses shame, guilt and fear to grow... even if they do so unknowingly. Is the God of love, peace, and joy really an angry ogre looking for people to punish?

the point I was making is that according to scripture death aka eternal torment in hell is the result or consequence of sin and not a punishment handed down by anyone. IOW's it is what the law demands not what God demands. It fact, it is the natural law of things not a God given law but the result of a holy God interacting with an unholy people. That is the point.

Of course not... that picture is of a pagan god as drawn by a people who don't understand the OT at all. I think God is looking for any and every excuse to save His created. That doesn't mean I am a universalist by any stretch of the imagination... but the whole "burning in hell" concept just stands against the shem (name - character) of YHWH.

hell is off topic in this conversation but I do get upset when people try to confuse the teachings of man on the topic with the teachings of scripture and make a judgment on such a misconception.

 

[Ken Rank]

the point I was making is that according to scripture death aka eternal torment in hell is the result or consequence of sin and not a punishment handed down by anyone. IOW's it is what the law demands not what God demands. It fact, it is the natural law of things not a God given law but the result of a holy God interacting with an unholy people. That is the point. hell is off topic in this conversation but I do get upset when people try to confuse the teachings of man on the topic with the teachings of scripture and make a judgment on such a misconception.

Yes, I understand your point. But the weights are not equal weights... you are talking about living 70-80 years or so and either not making the right decision or making a poor one WHILE IN AN IMPERFECT FALLEN STATE OF EXISTENCE. The punishment for this poor decision while in a fallen state is not 70-80 years of torture (being burned alive with no chance of reprieve is torture) and not 700 or 800 years or 7000 or 8000 years but ETERNITY of being burned alive, with full feeling and understanding? Not equal weights... I just don't see it as you do, sorry.