James says faith without works is dead.

[JoeP222w]

To prune a branch can mean to cut off the branch, or to cut off parts of the branch. The same word can be used in different ways.

Notice how Jesus says, "every branch that bears fruit He prunes" > in John 15:2. And you already clearly understand that our Father will not cut away a fruitful branch. So, His pruning, here, has to mean He is removing parts of the fruitful branch, so it can produce more fruit, as Jesus does say in this same verse.

And I think His pruning means how He corrects us of whatever is wrong, including our attention going in the wrong direction.

Pruning of correction (such as removing sin and sanctifying the believer in Jesus Christ) is different than pruning to remove dead limbs (the unregenerate, the unbelieving).

 

[com7fy8]

And the pruning of correction is what I meant, when I said our Father prunes a branch which bears good fruit.

And Hebrews 12:4-11 says we need to "be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live", in order to have His correction. So, I personally understand that we need to actively seek our Father for His correction. This, I think, would be a work of faith, and it is essential for our salvation, since His correction makes us "become partakers of His holiness".

All through the day, I can notice how I am not obeying God in His ruling of His peace; so I might stop and wait for Him to correct me and restore me so I am obeying how He rules me in His peace >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

So, I consider this would be included in works of faith. What do you think?

 

[JoeP222w]

So, I consider this would be included in works of faith. What do you think?

As long as you see it (works of faith) as Sanctification and not works of Justification, that seems consistent with scripture.

If you see works of faith as Justification before God, I don't see where that is consistent with scripture.

 

[EmSw]

As long as you see it (works of faith) as Sanctification and not works of Justification, that seems consistent with scripture.

If you see works of faith as Justification before God, I don't see where that is consistent with scripture.

Of course it's consistent with scripture.

James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

 

[Truth Lover]

But we do not gain favor with God toward salvation by piling up good deeds like some Boy Scout earning merit badges. That is the Roman Catholic view of that matter, however.

Does this help?

That is not what Catholics believe.
Salvation is a process of conversion and growth that requires our free will consent.
No one can work their way to heaven. We have to cooperate with the graces God gives us. Grace is a gift, so no one can boast about the charitible things they do.
It is not a matter of faith OR works. It is both faith AND charitable deeds. We do all out of love for God. Matt 7 "It is not those who say, LORD, LORD who enter the kingdom of heaven, but those who do the will of my Father." This means we need to not just have faith. We also must do God's will. What is God's will? Love one another as I have loved you. Love your neighbor as yourself. In Luke 10:25-37, a lawyer asked What must I do to inherit eternal life? Jesus responds by giving the two commandments to love God and neighbor. The lawyer asks who is his neighbor. Then Jesus tells the story of the Good Samaritan.
How can anyone say we do not have to do loving acts when Jesus commanded us to do them? To refuse to do them is disobedience because it is a sin of omission to not obey. How can we say we love God if we do not obey?
Rev 20:12 says we will be judged by what we have done in this life.

God commands us to love because He knows it will help us to grow in holiness, which will increase our faith.

If you are say Catholics believe something, please check the Catechism of the Catholic Church to assure accuracy in representing Catholic belief. It is online. Google it.

 

[Albion]

That is not what Catholics believe.

Maybe and maybe not, but it is what the church teaches.

 

[ToBeLoved]

And the pruning of correction is what I meant, when I said our Father prunes a branch which bears good fruit.

And Hebrews 12:4-11 says we need to "be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live", in order to have His correction. So, I personally understand that we need to actively seek our Father for His correction. This, I think, would be a work of faith, and it is essential for our salvation, since His correction makes us "become partakers of His holiness".

All through the day, I can notice how I am not obeying God in His ruling of His peace; so I might stop and wait for Him to correct me and restore me so I am obeying how He rules me in His peace >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

So, I consider this would be included in works of faith. What do you think?

God is going to correct His children. We do not have to wait to be corrected, nor do we become partakers of His holiness by correction. We are ALREADY partakers of His holiness. We are a new creation in Christ. That happened when we were saved. We were justified before God through Christ's blood.

Now, throughout our lives we are being sanctified. Becoming more Christ-like and conforming ourselves in the image of our Savior through being like Him in thought and deed. That is sanctification. Our entire walk with God is a continued measure of faith. Faith grows, usually and it takes faith throughout our lives to continue growing and walking with God.

A work of faith is depending upon God when you normally would depend upon yourself. Faith is picking up your cross each day and walking in His ways. Faith is a daily thing, a way of life where we are not the CEO, but Jesus is the CEO.

 

[com7fy8]

nor do we become partakers of His holiness by correction.

In Hebrews 12:4-11, we have >

"For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness." (Hebrews 12:10)

So, from this I get that our Father's chastening has us be "partakers of His holiness".

I understand, I think, that you mean that when we first get saved we already are His, and so we are holy.

But I also consider that His holiness has to do with how His nature is, in His love. We do not instantly become perfectly how God is, in our character. But we do have 1 John 4:17, about how we become, by being perfected in His love > "as He is, so are we in this world." So, I see that as we grow and mature, with correction, we become how His love has our character become like Him, and this is what I think Hebrews 12:10 is talking about . . . versus our "positional" holiness which begins right at salvation.

 

[Truth Lover]

Maybe and maybe not, but it is what the church teaches.

We are daved by grace through faith working in love. Ephesians 2:8 Go to www.thecounciloftrent.com/ch6.htm for a good explanation of the issue of justification. Part VIII says that faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation, the root of justification...But nothing that precedes faith or works is merits justification." We cannot save ourselves. It is all a gift from God both the gift of faith and the strength to live the Christian life as the Bible says we must. We become children of God by our Baptism so we can inherit eternal life. "If I have faith to move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing." 1 Cor 13.
You can also look it up in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraphs 1987-1995.

 

[Albion]

We are daved by grace through faith working in love.

I think you must have in mind conversion, not salvation per se.

 

[Truth Lover]

I think you must have in mind conversion, not salvation per se.

The word justification means something quite different to Protestants than it does for Catholics, so it is harder to understand each other. Perhaps this article will help: http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/faith-and-works0
I want to promote understanding on this forum.

 

[bcbsr]

You are mistaken about what Paul taught:

Romans 2
6God will repay each person according to what they have done. 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

If you look at the context of Romans 2 Paul is talking about being justified by law, but concludes "Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" Rom 3:20-24

What you're proposing is justification by works, which Paul concluded doesn't work because no one is qualified for it.

The Gal passage is referring to those not born of God. For "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9

 

[EmSw]

If you look at the context of Romans 2 Paul is talking about being justified by law, but concludes "Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" Rom 3:20-24

What you're proposing is justification by works, which Paul concluded doesn't work because no one is qualified for it.

The Gal passage is referring to those not born of God. For "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9

You haven't addressed the passage presented; you zoomed right past it.

 

[bcbsr]

No, I interpreted the passage in context by pointing out Paul's conclusion. You didn't interpret it in the context in which it was written. The meaning of a verse is not whatever meaning you can impose upon it. The meaning of a verse is the meaning the author intended.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No, I interpreted the passage in context by pointing out Paul's conclusion. You didn't interpret it in the context in which it was written. The meaning of a verse is not whatever meaning you can impose upon it. The meaning of a verse is the meaning the author intended.

However, Romans 3 is not the end or conclusion on the whole matter. There are no chapter breaks in the Bible. The letter to the Romans is one whole letter. Paul was saying in Romans 3 that nobody can be justified by the Law alone without God's grace and mercy because everyone needs a Savior to get right with God because all have sinned (or come short of the glory of God) as a part of their old life. Paul is talking about initial salvation or how we are ultimately saved. Paul is not talking about continued salvation or Sanctification; Nor is Paul saying we can continue in sin so that grace may abound. For in Romans 6, Paul says, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid." (Romans 6:1-2). Paul also says, "What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid." (Romans 6:15). Now, is Paul saying we are not under any kind of Law whatesoever? No. Paul is saying we are not under the Law of Moses. it's why he argued against circumcision in Romans 3:1. For the Law has not been abolished. The Scriptures say the Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12). For if you believe Paul was talking about not being under no Law of any kind then I suppose you are not under the following Law or Command below that says...

"And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment." (1 John 3:23).​

Are you not under this Law or Command above? Can you refuse the Command or Law to believe in Jesus and still be saved?

In addition, Romans 8 says that we can fulfill the righteousness part of the Law (Which is the moral law or the Law of love)
(cf. Romans 13:8-10).

For Romans 8 mentions that there are two kinds of Laws.

#1. The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (and):
#2. The Law (i.e. the Law of Moses).​

2 "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus [i.e. New Covenant Law] hath made me free from the law of sin and death.[i.e. Old Covenant Law]
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
(Romans 8:2-3).

What is the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus?

It's Romans 8:1, for it says,

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
(Romans 8:1).


...

 

[mark kennedy]

I'm not really following the banter so I'm just going to jump is because this one is pretty easy to digest.

James says faith without works is dead.

That statement is not made in a vacuum, there is a context.

My brothers and sisters, believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ must not show favoritism. (James 2:1)
​

There was a problem here, the rich were showing favoritism. Bottom line:

Because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment. (James 2:13)
​

You must share the mercy you received and the rich were not doing that.

What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? (James 2:14)
​

Saving faith results in receiving the divine nature including God's compassion for the poor. James is asking a simple rhetorical question, is this saving faith. This is all over the prophets, the way the rich ruled over the poor, a nearly constant complaint. In the New Testament from Jesus' first Sermon, the Sermon on the Mount, he starts off with Blessed are the poor in spirit in Matthew and Luke offers a different way of expressing it, perhaps in a subsequent lesson, blessed are the poor but cursed are the rich. It continues throughout the New Testament up to and including the message to the Laodiceans who were worldly rich but spiritually blind, pitiful, poor and naked. I will spare you the many quotes supporting this principle because it's an inescapable New Testament theme. I would suggest cross referencing with 1 Cor. 11 since depriving the poor at the love feasts was in light in both passages.

Paul says that sin can shipwreck our faith.

Your paraphrasing from Paul's great pastoral epistle to his son in the faith, a young man he discipled and groomed for the ministry. He warns of several things; false doctrine and sexual immorality getting special emphasis. Simply put many have rejected the Word of God thus ship wrecking their faith.

Timothy, my son, I am giving you this command in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by recalling them you may fight the battle well, holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith. Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satanto be taught not to blaspheme. (1 Tim. 18-20)
​

Not really talking here about losing saving faith but more like failing to receive saving faith due to unbelief. Timothy knew what he was required to do as far as ministry, it was prophecied about him. A couple of false teachers committed some kind of blaspheme but this kind of discipline can be inflicted on believers for misbehavior. At the heart of the emphasis Paul expresses the justification by grace through faith doctrine as all the Apostles did:

But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. (1Tim. 1:16)​

Jesus said only those who DO the will of his father go to heaven.

Yes, but what is the will of the Father, Jesus makes it clear:

For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” (John 6:38-40)
​

This is the feeding of the five thousand and they wanted to make Jesus king by force. They had mistaken Jesus for a bread truck and God had already been through this in the wilderness providing them with bread for them only to be stiff necked, rebellious and unbelieving. When Jesus says you must believe in me they turned away and would follow him no more. You can imagine the emotion in his voice as he turns to his Apostles and remaining believers and says will you leave also, Peter says and go where, you have the words of life.

Peter says that God judges each man's work impartially.

Yes he does and emphasizes that we must be holy because God is holy, echoing the message of the Pentateuch:

Since you call on a Father who judges each person’s work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear. For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. (1 Peter 1:17-19)
​

Driving this message home with the justification by grace through faith doctrine, as all the New Testament writers did:

Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him,and so your faith and hope are in God. Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart. For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors. (1 Peter 1:21-23)​

Clearly, salvation is not by faith alone. We must cooperate with God's grace to keep our faith alive and efficacious.

Yet it's apart from works:

David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works. (Romans 4:6)
​

Indeed salvation comes to us a free gift lest any man should boast, it would be a free gift even if Adam never sinned. The works that follow are always by grace through faith. Grace not only saves us but sanctifies us, apart from Christ we can do nothing and to make myself clear, your merit counts for nothing. If one were to ask the Apostle Paul how it is that he worked so hard and suffered so much and bringing so many the Gospel, he would, and did, tell us that it is by grace.

But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. (I Cor. 15:10)​

A good working definition for grace is 'unmerited favor', Paul worked in the ministry field by grace alone and he is crystal clear on this point. The merits of Christian ministry are Christ's alone we can add nothing. James in speaking to believers who were obviously showing favoritism was simply telling them that this is not how saving faith works. He was outraged that a wealthy Christian could treat a poor Christian as inferior when they themselves apart from Christ are poor, pitiful, blind and naked. We will receive that full recompense of righteousness and be glorified forever based on Christ's merit.

This is accomplished by the Holy Spirit through the Word of God at the moment of salvation (Eph 5:26; Titus 3:5). This is normative salvation, being born of the Spirit, becoming a new creature in Christ and being marked by the seal of the Holy Spirit of promise. You must bear the fruit of the Spirit which is the mark of a true disciple.

At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:3-7)​

We are saved by the washing, renewing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit, being justified by the grace of God which is normative salvation.

Saving faith is never alone, it is followed immediately by the dwelling of the Holy Spirit. The problem is not whether or not faith and justification are alone but what must be included for the surety of your salvation. Those works that are required are a free gift as well, we must never forget that.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[bcbsr]

However, Romans 3 is not the end or conclusion on the whole matter. There are no chapter breaks in the Bible. The letter to the Romans is one whole letter. Paul was saying in Romans 3 that nobody can be justified by the Law alone without God's grace and mercy because everyone needs a Savior to get right with God because all have sinned (or come short of the glory of God) as a part of their old life. Paul is talking about initial salvation or how we are ultimately saved. Paul is not talking about continued salvation or Sanctification; Nor is Paul saying we can continue in sin so that grace may abound. For in Romans 6, Paul says, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid." (Romans 6:1-2). Paul also says, "What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid." (Romans 6:15). Now, is Paul saying we are not under any kind of Law whatesoever? No. Paul is saying we are not under the Law of Moses. it's why he argued against circumcision in Romans 3:1. For the Law has not been abolished. The Scriptures say the Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12). For if you believe Paul was talking about not being under no Law of any kind then I suppose you are not under the following Law or Command below that says...

"And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment." (1 John 3:23).​

Are you not under this Law or Command above? Can you refuse the Command or Law to believe in Jesus and still be saved?

In addition, Romans 8 says that we can fulfill the righteousness part of the Law (Which is the moral law or the Law of love)
(cf. Romans 13:8-10).

For Romans 8 mentions that there are two kinds of Laws.

#1. The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (and):
#2. The Law (i.e. the Law of Moses).​

2 "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus [i.e. New Covenant Law] hath made me free from the law of sin and death.[i.e. Old Covenant Law]
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
(Romans 8:2-3).

What is the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus?

It's Romans 8:1, for it says,

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
(Romans 8:1).


...

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." Gal 3:10-12

Ro 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Ro 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Eph 2:8,9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse

So, for clarity/clarification here, who relies on observing the law to be saved ?
Everyone currently on earth is under a curse, except the remnant. (so if any are relying in the law to be saved, they have a lot of company)

 

[EmSw]

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." Gal 3:10-12

Ro 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Ro 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Eph 2:8,9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."

So, all of God's chosen people were cursed? I wonder if the Calvinists know this?

 

[ToBeLoved]

So, all of God's chosen people were cursed? I wonder if the Calvinists know this?

Maybe you should go break the news to them. Give me a 10 minute heads up. I'd like to be there.