Christianity... and the fact of evolution

[fat wee robin]

There is no hope for humanity in Godless evolutionary philosophy. The world of evolution is blind, pitiless and indifferent.

I like the 'tartan ' . As for the thread , yes those who 'believe in it ', can look forward to the great 'nothing' ,which awaits them . However christians of limited outlook tend to muddy the waters .

 

[Indent]

Do you believe in heresy? Are there opinions and beliefs so far out
that they cannot be accepted under the umbrella of God fearer or
Christian? I'm not asking in regard to anyone or any ideas presented
in this forum. Just if you take your statement at face value, anything
is acceptable, which turns all scripture on its head.

It's not that anything is "acceptable", it's that there's a strong argument, backed by substantial evidence from both Biblical scholarship and the natural world, that supports my position.

You don't need evolution to come to the conclusion that Genesis is a myth.

There are parts of the Bible that are up for discussion, and I don't support stonewalling the conversation with the flaccid and bankrupt idea of "Biblical inerrancy."

I think Christians need to be challenged, including examining church doctrine and dogmas.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

Perhaps you are correct in respect of a group of people.
The temple that is being built looks like a jumble of broken rock for the most part. But the first step towards identification with the Cornerstone is our orientation towards Him. So looking towards Him and claiming Him as our hope is in itself a lesson in Agape.

Ahhh...the overworn "no true Scotsman" defense again. When are you going to understand that to understand the invisible, one looks to the visible. I find nearly nothing to admire in the behavior of Christians.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

It's not that anything is "acceptable", it's that there's a strong argument, backed by substantial evidence from both Biblical scholarship and the natural world, that supports my position.

You don't need evolution to come to the conclusion that Genesis is a myth.

There are parts of the Bible that are up for discussion, and I don't support stonewalling the conversation with the flaccid and bankrupt idea of "Biblical inerrancy."

I think Christians need to be challenged, including examining church doctrine and dogmas.

But...but...questioning is a sin! Have to swallow it whole and check the brain and intellect God gave you at the door.

 

[fat wee robin]

When You and I choose it to happen. At the moment, collectively, we look a bit like this all limp wristed and mostly disinterested:

I grew up as an R.C. mostly in Scotland ,and although they really are christians, they have added an awful lot of stuff , like this 'stuff' , which most people in the Church would not have known anything about . This picture has nothing to do with the God of the bible and is a travesty .

 

[toLiJC]

Why do you reduce the sovereign of the universe to a man. Who are you to say that? Stop looking with human, limited eyes.

i don't make God out to be unrighteous, including because i don't dare to do it, so i don't deprive the true God of having His right(s) to prophesy, decree or do whatever He wants to irrespective of what any creature prefers the world setup to be

Blessings

 

[RedPonyDriver]

i don't make God out to be unrighteous, including because i don't dare to do it, so i don't deprive the true God of having His right(s) to prophesy, decree or do whatever He wants to irrespective of what any creature prefers the world setup to be

Blessings

When one tries to reduce the creator of the universe to a "person" it's limiting the greatness of this Sovereign creator of everything. When one tries to push their own limited understanding onto the Sovereign, then one is limiting that Sovereign. When one tries to say they know what that Sovereign "thinks" then one is again limiting that Sovereign to a puny, limited view. One of the MAJOR limitations of current fundamentalist thinking. Nobody KNOWS...stop guessing.

 

[fat wee robin]

It's not that anything is "acceptable", it's that there's a strong argument, backed by substantial evidence from both Biblical scholarship and the natural world, that supports my position.

You don't need evolution to come to the conclusion that Genesis is a myth.

There are parts of the Bible that are up for discussion, and I don't support stonewalling the conversation with the flaccid and bankrupt idea of "Biblical inerrancy."
I have written thousands of words around this subject in posts and am not going to repeat myself . Here is a kind of metaphor for you . When you can hear the music 'classic ',and then someone who is tone deaf tells you that you are mistaken in what you hear ,do you bother to explain for the umpteeth time or do you just leave them alone ?
think Christians need to be challenged, including examining church doctrine and dogmas.

 

[Archivist]

I meany She, not HE. I missed an S. Red Pony Driver said Genesis was a myth.
You said you view it as an allegory and I 100% disagree.
There is, however, a difference between seeing "I see it as an allegory," or "I believe it to be a myth" and coming out with a declarative statement, "Genesis is a myth;" as if you had special knowledge of the fact and are not expressing your opinion.
It's the difference between saying, "Your post doesn't make sense to me," and "You're an idiot."
As a Christian, you can freely doubt anything you read in the Bible and question some of the events, but saying "The six day creation is a lie, Moses made it all up" is considered false teaching. Many things in the Bible are difficult to understand, but I'm not going to say to other Christians, "Your Bible is false. This never happened."

From previous experience, I question the intent of Christians who attack the Scriptures and make definitive claims based on what they do or do not believe. The number of pretenders I have personally exposed is beyond coincidence. Non-believers use forums like this to attack our faith from the inside.

Yes, I am fully aware of the difference between an allegory and a myth. That is why I posted--I wanted to clarify that there is a difference. Viewing the Genesis creation accounts as an allegory is not attacking or questioning Scripture or claiming that the Bible is false.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

From fat wee robin:
I have written thousands of words around this subject in posts and am not going to repeat myself . Here is a kind of metaphor for you . When you can hear the music 'classic ',and then someone who is tone deaf tells you that you are mistaken in what you hear ,do you bother to explain for the umpteeth time or do you just leave them alone ?
think Christians need to be challenged, including examining church doctrine and dogmas.

You can't compare being "tone deaf" to intellectual pursuits. "Biblical inerrancy" is a bankrupt philosophy. By insisting that a written text that is thousands of years old, been translated over and over again is "God's word" is to deny and repudiate John 1:1...In the beginning was the WORD and the WORD was with God and the WORD WAS God.

The bible is written by men. It gives contradictory accounts of many events. It's not even a good guidebook. If someone thinks the bible is like a Chilton's for life, they're so, so wrong. Biblical inerrancy dumbs down the bible, it dumbs down people. It takes away so much of the majesty and wonder of what God has done throughout history. It is intellectually bankrupt.

 

[KWCrazy]

Viewing the Genesis creation accounts as an allegory is not attacking or questioning Scripture or claiming that the Bible is false.

I disagree with your position but I can respect your right to have that opinion. At least you are posting what you believe and are not pushing your belief as fact.
I perfectly accept that I could be wrong, but if so I will be proven wrong by a clarification of Scripture and not by someone claiming, "Science says that didn't happen." People can believe anything they want, but if they state things as a matter of fact they need to be prepared to validate those claims.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

I perfectly accept that I could be wrong, but if so I will be proven wrong by a clarification of Scripture and not by someone claiming, "Science says that didn't happen." People can believe anything they want, but if they state things as a matter of fact they need to be prepared to validate those claims.

Gotta love the circular reasoning.

 

[JacksBratt]

if that makes you happy....but you do not get to dictate to others.

What do you consider dictating? What is it that I am dictating?

All I have put in my post, is my view, my opinion and some simple facts about Moses.....

Speaking of Moses, do you recall this scripture?

John 5:46-47New International Version (NIV)
46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”

Do you not see the power in these two verses? Moses wrote about the creation and you don't believe it. Jesus question to that attitude is " how are you going to believe what I say".

Basically,

"if you don't believe the Genesis account of creation, how are you going to believe any of Christs teaching?"

 

[RedPonyDriver]

What do you consider dictating? What is it that I am dictating?

All I have put in my post, is my view, my opinion and some simple facts about Moses.....

Speaking of Moses, do you recall this scripture?

John 5:46-47New International Version (NIV)
46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”

Do you not see the power in these two verses? Moses wrote about the creation and you don't believe it. Jesus question to that attitude is " how are you going to believe what I say".

Basically,

"if you don't believe the Genesis account of creation, how are you going to believe any of Christs teaching?"

Ok...To believe that the Sovereign of the Universe set the universe in motion, I do not have to take Genesis 1 & 2 literally. I can use some serious logic/intelligence to understand that if I go far enough backward in time, to the original singularity, SOMETHING or SOMEONE had to set that in motion...

Second, how can taking Genesis 1 & 2 as a creation myth and understanding the literary devices and style of ancient writing possibly denigrate what I believe?

Again..."biblical inerrancy" is utterly bankrupt as a religious practice. It is a stunted, anti-intellectual and idolatrous belief system.

 

[toLiJC]

When one tries to reduce the creator of the universe to a "person" it's limiting the greatness of this Sovereign creator of everything. When one tries to push their own limited understanding onto the Sovereign, then one is limiting that Sovereign. When one tries to say they know what that Sovereign "thinks" then one is again limiting that Sovereign to a puny, limited view. One of the MAJOR limitations of current fundamentalist thinking. Nobody KNOWS...stop guessing.

i don't speak words out of myself when i witness to a god's word, if we say the true God delays the overall salvation, either by causing there to be an long evolution within the single eternity or by causing there to be another thing that delays the overall salvation, then we will make Him out to be unrighteous by speaking so about Him, it is not possible that the true Lord God make the overall salvation be delayed

1 Corinthians 11:14 (NIV) "Does not the very nature of things teach you"

how is it possible that the true God be guilty of an infliction of evil on any soul?!, is He an evildoer/villain/sinner?!, do you dare to claim before all the christian community that He is a villain?!, and if, despite all conclusions, (in the end) it turns out that the true God has always been good and not at all evil, what will happen to the liars that claimed He is evil?!

Jude 1:14-15 "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.",

1 John 1:1-10 "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us; ) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If(i.e. and if in such circumstances i.e. when we sin) we say that we have no sin(i.e. or if we, juxtaposing God with men, say that not the humans are sinful), we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If(i.e. but if in such circumstances) we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If(i.e. yet if in such circumstances) we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

Blessings

 

[RedPonyDriver]

i don't speak words out of myself when i witness to a god's word, if we say the true God delays the overall salvation, either by causing there to be an long evolution within the single eternity or by causing there to be another thing that delays the overall salvation, then we will make Him out to be unrighteous by speaking so about Him, it is not possible that the true Lord God make the overall salvation be delayed

Word salad

how is it possible that the true God be guilty of an infliction of evil on any soul?!, is He an evildoer/villain/sinner?!, do you dare to claim before all the christian community that He is a villain?!, and if, despite all conclusions, (in the end) it turns out that the true God has always been good and not at all evil, what will happen to the liars that claimed He is evil?!

Where was that said? Quote please.

I have NO idea what you're trying to say here...and I think you completely missed the statement I made.

 

[toLiJC]

Word salad

Where was that said? Quote please.

I have NO idea what you're trying to say here...and I think you completely missed the statement I made.

i am also surprised by your answers, and at the same time it is not surprising to me that there is such an attitude in the world

Matthew 10:26 "there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known."

Blessings

 

[RedPonyDriver]

i am also surprised by your answers, and at the same time it is not surprising to me that there is such an attitude in the world

Matthew 10:26 "there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known."

Blessings

Avoidance? Why can't you quote me? I would think that would be pretty easy.

 

[JacksBratt]

Ok...To believe that the Sovereign of the Universe set the universe in motion, I do not have to take Genesis 1 & 2 literally. I can use some serious logic/intelligence to understand that if I go far enough backward in time, to the original singularity, SOMETHING or SOMEONE had to set that in motion...

Second, how can taking Genesis 1 & 2 as a creation myth and understanding the literary devices and style of ancient writing possibly denigrate what I believe?

Again..."biblical inerrancy" is utterly bankrupt as a religious practice. It is a stunted, anti-intellectual and idolatrous belief system.

Ok, lot's of verbage and no meat all the while not even on topic with my point.

My original post was to someone who said that Moses was, basically, to ignorant to understand the TOE so God told him this mythical tale.

I explained that Moses was probably one of the most intelligent people of that time, if ever AND that the people of that era could understand the TOE as easily as you and I.

Therefore, said poster's point was mute.

I then offered my view which is that Moses was instructed to write the Genesis account do to the fact that it is the truth. Also, that Moses did not write anything about the TOE because that was not the way it happened. I also stated that it is Satan's lie.

You responded stating that I was dictating something. I asked you to tell me what I was dictating and get the above rant, stating your view, all the while not even being close to the topic of the other poster and my points.

You did however miss my point where Jesus said " If you don't believe Moses, why do you believe me".

Funny, I have heard this same argument from other Christians here. It goes something like this.
"If you think Genesis is a myth or parable or allegory, while the Gospel is truth.....how do you know what parts of the wonders of the Bible are truth and which are myth? How do you know what to believe and what to disregard?

My best guess would be "if it agrees with science it's good" "if it disagrees with science it is myth".

This view is opposite to the biblical teaching which tells us:

1 Corinthians 2:5King James Version (KJV)

5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

Ok, lot's of verbage and no meat all the while not even on topic with my point.

My original post was to someone who said that Moses was, basically, to ignorant to understand the TOE so God told him this mythical tale.

I explained that Moses was probably one of the most intelligent people of that time, if ever AND that the people of that era could understand the TOE as easily as you and I.

Therefore, said poster's point was mute.

I then offered my view which is that Moses was instructed to write the Genesis account do to the fact that it is the truth. Also, that Moses did not write anything about the TOE because that was not the way it happened. I also stated that it is Satan's lie.

You responded stating that I was dictating something. I asked you to tell me what I was dictating and get the above rant, stating your view, all the while not even being close to the topic of the other poster and my points.

You did however miss my point where Jesus said " If you don't believe Moses, why do you believe me".

Funny, I have heard this same argument from other Christians here. It goes something like this.
"If you think Genesis is a myth or parable or allegory, while the Gospel is truth.....how do you know what parts of the wonders of the Bible are truth and which are myth? How do you know what to believe and what to disregard?

My best guess would be "if it agrees with science it's good" "if it disagrees with science it is myth".

This view is opposite to the biblical teaching which tells us:

1 Corinthians 2:5King James Version (KJV)

5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

First: See bolded and red above. Hard to take anyone very seriously with such horrendous spelling, grammar and misuse of the English language.

Second: I have stated repeatedly that Genesis 1 & 2 is a creation MYTH...that is, a way for ancient peoples to understand how they arrived where they are. They are very common among ancient cultures and civilizations and as a result, it is nothing less than utter arrogance to decide that only one of those are true.

Three: Again, I am not a biblical literalist.

Four: Understanding literary devices and genres, and understanding how ancient peoples wrote history does not undercut what I believe.

Five: Please point out to me, using LITERAL and PLAIN LANGUAGE scriptures that the need to take Genesis 1 & 2 literally is a salvation issue. To the best of my knowledge, this is the ONLY requirement for salvation:
Romans 10:9 New International Version (NIV)
9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

I do believe this...the rest is details that are optional.