Christianity... and the fact of evolution

[Indent]

2PhiloVoid,
This is a spiritual war. We are told thru the Word to watch for false teachings. We are told to preach the Gospel. We are also told to defend the faith.

God don't need any help with creation. He knew what He was doing and He created perfectly. Just as He said He did. And when anyone say's he didn't, that it needs a hand from evolution to continue what He so perfectly created. Then you call God a liar. Which He isn't.

So yes it needs to be discussed. But in the biblically correct manner.

Colossians 4:5-6
5 Conduct yourselves with wisdom toward outsiders, making the most of the opportunities.
6 Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you should answer everyone.

Who said God needed help with creation? I didn't say He needed a hand from evolution.

If anything, God created us through evolution.

 

[JacksBratt]

All true. But we can only work with the evidence we have. And if all the evidence we have at the moment says "evolution is a thing", it's kinda silly to discard it because of the unfounded possibility that i's wrong.

I mean, it's possible that the entire universe as we know it is an illusion, and we all just exist in a computer simulation and that even the fundamental laws of physics as we understand them are wrong. It's possible. But unless someone comes up with some compelling evidence to think so, it would be silly to try to argue against reality as we know it based on that possibility.

That's just it, the evidence doesn't say anything. It's men that say what the fossils say. It's men that presume and guess at what happened before and after. It's men that determine, from old bones, what an animal looked like, ate, how it mated, what it's great great grandmother looked like and what it's great great grandchildren turned into. It's things that are all assumptions, speculations and extrapolations. Not fact. Evidence of nothing.

 

[smithed64]

Who said God needed help with creation? I didn't say He needed a hand from evolution.

If anything, God created us through evolution.

Nope, He created Adam, from mud. He breathed life into him and He became alive. He was created in God's image and that's it.
Eve was created from the rib of Adam by God's own hand.

No evolution...at least no macro evolution. No changing of one kind to another..i.e. ape to man.
He did exactly what He said he did.

Now I admit as I have said before. Adaptation is real and happens everyday with people. We adapt to those thing that affect us in many ways. But we were created human and have always been human.

 

[smithed64]

Who said God needed help with creation? I didn't say He needed a hand from evolution.

If anything, God created us through evolution.

If so, where is the scriptural truth for this?
For that is where we learn of our creation and what God did to create us and everything else.

 

[AV1611VET]

Thank you for your post...I am in agreement with you...I don't know how that quote you posted was attributed to me though...not mine.

I got it from Post 428.

Sorry about that.

I'll remove your name from the quote tags.

 

[Armoured]

Nope, He created Adam, from mud. He breathed life into him and He became alive. He was created in God's image and that's it.
Eve was created from the rib of Adam by God's own hand.

No evolution...at least no macro evolution. No changing of one kind to another..i.e. ape to man.
He did exactly what He said he did.

Now I admit as I have said before. Adaptation is real and happens everyday with people. We adapt to those thing that affect us in many ways. But we were created human and have always been human.

Because walking across town is fine, but walking across the country is impossible

 

[Armoured]

If so, where is the scriptural truth for this?
For that is where we learn of our creation and what God did to create us and everything else.

If you needed life saving heart surgery tomorrow, would you want the scientifically trained doctor, or a doctor whose knowledge only came from scripture?

 

[Indent]

Nope, He created Adam, from mud. He breathed life into him and He became alive. He was created in God's image and that's it.
Eve was created from the rib of Adam by God's own hand.

No evolution...at least no macro evolution. No changing of one kind to another..i.e. ape to man.
He did exactly what He said he did.

Now I admit as I have said before. Adaptation is real and happens everyday with people. We adapt to those thing that affect us in many ways. But we were created human and have always been human.

The Bible tell us we are all made of dust. The Bible also tells us "forming" can refer to non-material activities, as pointed out by John Walton of Wheaton (who is an expert at Biblical Hebrew). He suggests the Bible does not preclude that Adam was born of a woman, and it's possible that he is an archetypal figure: Taking on a greater meaning than himself, and expressing things that are true of us all.

The Book of Genesis was written by ancient Israelites.

These people believed there was a solid dome around the earth (firmament), and that an ocean was on the other side. There were "storehouses of snow" up there too. These people believed the moon was a light, the earth was flat, and the sun orbited the earth. These people believed in a three-tier universe.

It's an ancient worldview. These people believed the mind was associated with the innards. Really.

It's consistent with how ancient Near Eastern cultures viewed the world around them, and it's consistent with how they communicated ideas: through myth.

Just because you assert that the Bible ought to be read in a particular way, doesn't make it so. Just because Paul mentions Adam in Romans 5 does prove the historicity, or advance the case that Genesis must be read literally, it means he used Adam in a theological statement.

Just because evolution appears to be incompatible with your worldview, does not make evolution incorrect.

I'd like to remind you: inerrancy is just a theory.

 

[AV1611VET]

Because walking across town is fine, but walking across the country is impossible

All this walking-across-the-country argument shows is deep time, which doesn't exist.

It has a flaw:

Both points (point of departure & point of arrival) are not related to each other: they aren't cousins or anything else.

Boston and L.A. are two completely different cities.

They have similarities alright: steel, concrete, asphalt; but were built from parts that are not daisy-chained to each other.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

2PhiloVoid,
This is a spiritual war. We are told thru the Word to watch for false teachings. We are told to preach the Gospel. We are also told to defend the faith.

God don't need any help with creation. He knew what He was doing and He created perfectly. Just as He said He did. And when anyone say's he didn't, that it needs a hand from evolution to continue what He so perfectly created. Then you call God a liar. Which He isn't.

So yes it needs to be discussed. But in the biblically correct manner.

Colossians 4:5-6
5 Conduct yourselves with wisdom toward outsiders, making the most of the opportunities.
6 Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you should answer everyone.

Smithed64,

Ok. But "I" think evolution happened, and that it reflects the contours of God's work through prehistoric, paleolithic, neolithic, and then ancient times. I don't think God received "assistance" from evolution; no, I think God worked through evolution and that not everything God does has to be something we perceive to have transpired in the blink of an eye, or in the space of a single day (or seven).

I also think that the Bible is true and that humanity is separated from God by its sin(s) and is in need of the mercy and grace that is available through Jesus Christ. But I don't think that humanity is separated from God by a scientific theory.

I also don't think that Genesis Chapter One is a treatise on 'how' God made heaven and earth, or a literal reflection of how long it took or by what processes He used to bring to pass. So, with that said, am I not still a Christian? (And be careful how you answer that, because CF doesn't allow anyone to poke a finger at others and assert that they aren't "true Christians" if they at least hold to the Nicene Creed, which I do.)

I'm going to have to disagree with you and assert that biblical spiritual war has mostly to do with affirming that Jesus came in the flesh as the Son of God, and with contended and praying for those who deny this central point. This is the 'war.'

Peace in Christ
2PhiloVoid

 

[JacksBratt]

the writers of the Bible don't give us very many interpretive principles that enable us to be absolutely certain, clear, infallible, and/or comprehensively systematic in our reading and understanding of the Bible.

Right you are.... therefore..... read it and take it as it was written.....

The very first chapter of the Bible tells us some history. History of our earth and all that is in it, on it and around it. Nobody was here to see it but God inspired a man to write it down. That man, to all of my knowledge, was Moses. Moses was a brilliant man who was educated by the Egyptian elite. He observed and saw many great wonders of God's ability and events God accomplished as Moses was told they would. He was even disciplined by God for not doing as God said.

This very first chapter and book of the Bible would be, to me, the most logical book to be read and understood, exactly as it is written. It would make no sense, for God, to begin His book of instruction, to His creation, with a mythical exaggeration of supernatural events.

Apply this logic with the numerous places in the Bible that tell us that we are to believe God rather than man. That man's wisdom is that of fools. That the knowledge of men will be useless when compared to the knowledge of God. That man's ways are not God's ways..... And you have a formula that tells us to believe God's word over the rambling, babbling, assumptions men have based on the observations of men.

Combine that with the simple fact that the events of Genesis are well within the abilities of God.

Occam's Razor would then suggest that:

God can do it. Has the ability.
God said He did it.
It was recorded by a very intelligent and educated man who was instructed by God to write it down.

Therefore, it happened just as Moses wrote it as instructed by the God who did it and reinforced by His son, Jesus Christ.
Also:
Therefore, any observations of men, assumptions by men, measurements by men, calculations of men, pondering s of men, teaching of man's ideas that contradict the written word of God....is folly.

 

[JacksBratt]

Because walking across town is fine, but walking across the country is impossible

Do not understand your point here.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Right you are.... therefore..... read it and take it as it was written.....

The very first chapter of the Bible tells us some history. History of our earth and all that is in it, on it and around it. Nobody was here to see it but God inspired a man to write it down. That man, to all of my knowledge, was Moses. Moses was a brilliant man who was educated by the Egyptian elite. He observed and saw many great wonders of God's ability and events God accomplished as Moses was told they would. He was even disciplined by God for not doing as God said.

This very first chapter and book of the Bible would be, to me, the most logical book to be read and understood, exactly as it is written. It would make no sense, for God, to begin His book of instruction, to His creation, with a mythical exaggeration of supernatural events.

Apply this logic with the numerous places in the Bible that tell us that we are to believe God rather than man. That man's wisdom is that of fools. That the knowledge of men will be useless when compared to the knowledge of God. That man's ways are not God's ways..... And you have a formula that tells us to believe God's word over the rambling, babbling, assumptions men have based on the observations of men.

Combine that with the simple fact that the events of Genesis are well within the abilities of God.

Occam's Razor would then suggest that:

God can do it. Has the ability.
God said He did it.
It was recorded by a very intelligent and educated man who was instructed by God to write it down.

Therefore, it happened just as Moses wrote it as instructed by the God who did it and reinforced by His son, Jesus Christ.
Also:
Therefore, any observations of men, assumptions by men, measurements by men, calculations of men, pondering s of men, teaching of man's ideas that contradict the written word of God....is folly.

You do realize that I'm not trying to convince anyone that they need to accept the Theory of Evolution. No, what I'm trying to discuss here is that someone like me should still be considered a Christian if I accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.

On top of that, if we go by your exegetical principle that we should "just take the Bible as it is written," then to do so wouldn't be much different from what Orthodox Jews claim they do with the O.T. Scriptures. Should I take take their word for a hard, literal reading of the Bible, or yours? Because, unfortunately, we all arrive at different conclusions, even among Christians who all claim to be reading the Bible simply and literally.

 

[Archivist]

Nope, He created Adam, from mud. He breathed life into him and He became alive. He was created in God's image and that's it.
Eve was created from the rib of Adam by God's own hand.

No evolution...at least no macro evolution. No changing of one kind to another..i.e. ape to man.
He did exactly what He said he did.

Now I admit as I have said before. Adaptation is real and happens everyday with people. We adapt to those thing that affect us in many ways. But we were created human and have always been human.

Evolution does not claim that humans descended from apes.

 

[Indent]

Right you are.... therefore..... read it and take it as it was written.....

The very first chapter of the Bible tells us some history. History of our earth and all that is in it, on it and around it. Nobody was here to see it but God inspired a man to write it down. That man, to all of my knowledge, was Moses. Moses was a brilliant man who was educated by the Egyptian elite. He observed and saw many great wonders of God's ability and events God accomplished as Moses was told they would. He was even disciplined by God for not doing as God said.

This very first chapter and book of the Bible would be, to me, the most logical book to be read and understood, exactly as it is written. It would make no sense, for God, to begin His book of instruction, to His creation, with a mythical exaggeration of supernatural events.

Apply this logic with the numerous places in the Bible that tell us that we are to believe God rather than man. That man's wisdom is that of fools. That the knowledge of men will be useless when compared to the knowledge of God. That man's ways are not God's ways..... And you have a formula that tells us to believe God's word over the rambling, babbling, assumptions men have based on the observations of men.

Combine that with the simple fact that the events of Genesis are well within the abilities of God.

Occam's Razor would then suggest that:

God can do it. Has the ability.
God said He did it.
It was recorded by a very intelligent and educated man who was instructed by God to write it down.

Therefore, it happened just as Moses wrote it as instructed by the God who did it and reinforced by His son, Jesus Christ.
Also:
Therefore, any observations of men, assumptions by men, measurements by men, calculations of men, pondering s of men, teaching of man's ideas that contradict the written word of God....is folly.

That's some fine eisegesis there.

"Just read it as it's written."

It was written thousands of years ago, I don't think you appreciate just how foreign these people and culture are to us.

I'm going to echo was N.T. Wright, one of the most prolific theologians of our time said to Joh Piper, "You're going to commit massive anachronisms all down the line."

...and flatten out the meaning of the text.

 

[JacksBratt]

If you needed life saving heart surgery tomorrow, would you want the scientifically trained doctor, or a doctor whose knowledge only came from scripture?

 

[JacksBratt]

You do realize that I'm not trying to convince anyone that they need to accept the Theory of Evolution. No, what I'm trying to discuss here is that someone like me should still be considered a Christian if I accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.

On top of that, if we go by your exegetical principle that we should "just take the Bible as it is written," then to do so wouldn't be much different from what Orthodox Jews claim they do with the O.T. Scriptures. Should I take take their word for a hard, literal reading of the Bible, or yours? Because, unfortunately, we all arrive at different conclusions, even among Christians who all claim to be reading the Bible simply and literally.

Yes... you are still saved if you believe or disagree with the TOE....

Just as you are still saved if you still sin, as we all do.

In the end, we all, who believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, will all have a good laugh at the things we got wrong. Some, however, who don't believe the saving power of Christ, will not be laughing at all.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Yes... you are still saved if you believe or disagree with the TOE....

Just as you are still saved if you still sin, as we all do.

In the end, we all, who believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, will all have a good laugh at the things we got wrong. Some, however, who don't believe the saving power of Christ, will not be laughing at all.

Well...I can't disagree with you there, brother.

In Christ,
2PhiloVoid

 

[1213]

Mouse to fish would take too much time. But the very thing you ask for here has been demonstrated by the great variety of dog breeds, for example.

But that all is only variation inside of certain species, not new species. I think it is obvious that there happens variation within all species. The crucial question is; could that be the reason for the current variety of all species. By what I know, there is no good reason to believe so.

 

[pat34lee]

Yes, its getting there. Have you ever learned anything about artifical intelligence? The technology is getting so advanced now that it is able to teach itself and program itself.
Plus, God programmed what He had in mind for the world since the beginning of Creation. It was preprogrammed to happen, otherwise man wouldnt have been made in Gods image.

AI may be able to do many things, but it can't think, and it can't go
beyond its programming.