Lordship Salvation

[W2L]

God's Word says that perfect love casts out all fear. We are not to live in fear.

Pray about your sin issues. Let God know and talk to Him. He wants to listen and He wants to help.

Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Jude 1:23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire,a]'>[a] hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;

Isaiah 66:2 ...“These are the ones I look on with favor:
those who are humble and contrite in spirit,
and who tremble at my word.

 

[SteveCaruso]

As a point of order, Lordship Salvation is a rather recent invention.

From what I understand it was a response to the Personal Salvation theology that arose within Pentecostalism.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Jude 1:23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire,a]'>[a] hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;

Isaiah 66:2 ...“These are the ones I look on with favor:
those who are humble and contrite in spirit,
and who tremble at my word.

He is saved. A saved person has nothing to fear from His Lord.

 

[DoubtfulSalvation]

So what is this topic that you say is the most important and that the bible isn't clear on? (And remember to not confuse certain people's understanding (or lack thereof) with the bible itself.)

I guess I didn't have to make assumptions as to if you read my entire post. Since I'm such a nice upstanding and possibly Christian guy (depends on your own view of salvation) I will tell you. The most important message or doctrine in the entire Bible is salvation. I wish it was a simple matter of confusing certain people's understanding, as if this meant there were only couple of people with a separate belief on the matter, but it's not that simple. I'm a humble (possibly christian) man and will admit that I've never been the intellectual type. However, my wife is a genius and graduated from a prestigious college. During her time there she had to write many papers on a various amount of subjects for her classes relating to her minor/major. Now, for most papers you given a topic or a chance to pick the subject matter of your choice, and once you do you then have to write a paper that conveys your point in a clear and concise manner. This is merely on a lowly human level of understanding, but that's what it's all about. What I'm trying to say is, is that I don't believe it's a matter of confusion on the part of a particular set of individuals, but that the Bible itself is poorly written or at least translated in a manner not conducive to conveying itself clearly concerning salvation. I'm fairly well versed in most of the arguments concerning this matter and including the correct way to rightly divide the word through dispensationalism etc... So, if you turn a paper to a class and that point isn't conveyed well you get an F. In the case of the bible you just go to hell, because that's how it is folks. I'm sure you will have all sorts of things to say in reply and I'm eager to read them. Thanks.

 

[AngelOf Laodicea]

I guess I didn't have to make assumptions as to if you read my entire post. Since I'm such a nice upstanding and possibly Christian guy (depends on your own view of salvation) I will tell you. The most important message or doctrine in the entire Bible is salvation. I wish it was a simple matter of confusing certain people's understanding, as if this meant there were only couple of people with a separate belief on the matter, but it's not that simple. I'm a humble (possibly christian) man and will admit that I've never been the intellectual type. However, my wife is a genius and graduated from a prestigious college. During her time there she had to write many papers on a various amount of subjects for her classes relating to her minor/major. Now, for most papers you given a topic or a chance to pick the subject matter of your choice, and once you do you then have to write a paper that conveys your point in a clear and concise manner. This is merely on a lowly human level of understanding, but that's what it's all about. What I'm trying to say is, is that I don't believe it's a matter of confusion on the part of a particular set of individuals, but that the Bible itself is poorly written or at least translated in a manner not conducive to conveying itself clearly concerning salvation. I'm fairly well versed in most of the arguments concerning this matter and including the correct way to rightly divide the word through dispensationalism etc... So, if you turn a paper to a class and that point isn't conveyed well you get an F. In the case of the bible you just go to hell, because that's how it is folks. I'm sure you will have all sorts of things to say in reply and I'm eager to read them. Thanks.

The most important message is Gods holiness.

Our salvation is secondary to His praise.

 

[mikeforjesus]

From a book by our previous pope in the coptic orthodox church

(5) Repentance and the work of Grace
Many Protestant groups hold that repentance is one of the works of Grace and all man's strivings are void. It is sufficient that man casts himself at the feet of Christ to save him from his sins. The Orthodox doctrine holds that the whole spiritual life of man is a fellowship of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit supports but man should strive. If man does not strive the Apostle will reproach him, saying: “You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin” (Heb. 12: 4). The Holy Bible portrays the spiritual life as a struggle which needs the whole armour of God: “For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places” (Eph.6: 12). This war undoubtedly needs man to struggle and win. This fight is what the Lord Jesus Christ meant in His message to the angels of the seven churches when He said: “To him who overcomes I will give...” (Rev.2: 17). Grace does not 193 do all the work, otherwise God would not have said: “Return to Me... and I will return to you” (Zech.1: 3)

the book is here
http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/theology/comptheo.pdf

 

[Received]

The opposite of Lordship salvation is the "cheap grace" Bonhoeffer wrote about:

Cheap grace is the grace we bestow on ourselves. Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, Communion without confession...Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate.​

I can't help but wonder why cheap grace became so prevalent (and is still incredibly prevalent). Part of it has to do with the easiness of the approach, yes, where the will-to-easiness sculpted a theology that reflects this; part of it has to do with, perhaps, tribal theism, where our group is "in", and all we have to do is have the right culture (values and beliefs), and you're "out" because you don't.

But I think it goes deeper still. I see "cheap grace" as an inevitable consequence of salvation as a postmortem affair, "getting to heaven when we die." The reason is that because nobody really knows what it means to be saved and live a life in discipleship to Christ, salvation is pushed off to the unknown future world and all that's required is believing the right things, because what else is there for you to do when you have no idea what salvation entails?

If you understand salvation as what the term morphologically means, "wholeness" or "healing", which implies a present-centered state of transformation, also supported in scripture by Jesus referring to eternal life as relating in a proper way to God (John 17:3), and you know what's involved in working out your salvation (Phil 2:12), then everything becomes incredibly relevant, and of course it makes sense to have Jesus as my lord, because I actually know what it means to be saved under his lordship.

 

[W2L]

He is saved. A saved person has nothing to fear from His Lord.

Perhaps you're right.

 

[DTate98]

First, we do not need 'sinless status', that is your own theology and not Biblical.

Second, the curse of returning to dust is not Biblical either. I've never heard of it and it does not exist. God specifically says that we WILL return to dust as we all die. A result of Adam & Eve's sin in the Garden of Eden.

I would encourage you to get more knowledge of God's Word before you tell anyone they are on a rocking ship.

I think what they mean by sinless status is that when you become a child of God, your sins are completely forgiven, past, present, and future. I mean I never heard it called sinless status, which if taken out of context, sounds as if each Christian is perfect when they're not. Forgiveness of sin is sort of like being in a sinless state because you don't have to suffer the consequences for what you've done. It doesn't mean you are without sin.

Also, our physical bodies will eventually decompose into dust. But our souls will either go to Heaven or to Hell. And take a look at Genesis 3:19 when God was cursing Adam and Eve for eating from the forbidden tree: "By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return."

The whole curse of returning to dust sounds pretty biblical from that verse. And just because you never heard of something does not mean it doesn't exist. It just means you haven't heard of it. I suggest you read your bible more.

 

[דוד חֵן (David)]

I think what they mean by sinless status is that when you become a child of God, your sins are completely forgiven, past, present, and future. I mean I never heard it called sinless status, which if taken out of context, sounds as if each Christian is perfect when they're not. Forgiveness of sin is sort of like being in a sinless state because you don't have to suffer the consequences for what you've done. It doesn't mean you are without sin.

Also, our physical bodies will eventually decompose into dust. But our souls will either go to Heaven or to Hell. And take a look at Genesis 3:19 when God was cursing Adam and Eve for eating from the forbidden tree: "By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return."

The whole curse of returning to dust sounds pretty biblical from that verse. And just because you never heard of something does not mean it doesn't exist. It just means you haven't heard of it. I suggest you read your bible more.

The sacrifices of Yeshua the Messiah removed the curse of returning to dust, because the sin of all mankind is atoned for, therefore it is written, "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (Daniel 12:2)

 

[DoubtfulSalvation]

The most important message is Gods holiness.

Our salvation is secondary to His praise.

Yea, uh huh, whatever. I would argue that his holiness is displayed more through his salvation to man more than anything else, but whatever makes everyone feel more pious.

 

[דוד חֵן (David)]

Yea, uh huh, whatever. I would argue that his holiness is displayed more through his salvation to man more than anything else, but whatever makes everyone feel more pious.

It is written, "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent." (Revelation 3:19)

 

[Kersh]

I agree largely with the OP. If we are living hy faith, we will become increasingly obedient and holy people. What concerns me in reading through this thread is how some of us, in advancing the call to holiness (or Lordship salvation, if you prefer), speak in such an unkind (unholy) way in speaking to those who either disagree or don't understand. Holiness is lived out, perhaps most importantly, in how we treat one another.

 

[ViaCrucis]

The most important message is Gods holiness.

Then so much for the Gospel.

Our salvation is secondary to His praise.

Our salvation is to the praise of His glory. It's who He is, the God who saves.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Wordkeeper]

The opposite of Lordship salvation is the "cheap grace" Bonhoeffer wrote about:

Cheap grace is the grace we bestow on ourselves. Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, Communion without confession...Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate.​

I can't help but wonder why cheap grace became so prevalent (and is still incredibly prevalent). Part of it has to do with the easiness of the approach, yes, where the will-to-easiness sculpted a theology that reflects this; part of it has to do with, perhaps, tribal theism, where our group is "in", and all we have to do is have the right culture (values and beliefs), and you're "out" because you don't.

But I think it goes deeper still. I see "cheap grace" as an inevitable consequence of salvation as a postmortem affair, "getting to heaven when we die." The reason is that because nobody really knows what it means to be saved and live a life in discipleship to Christ, salvation is pushed off to the unknown future world and all that's required is believing the right things, because what else is there for you to do when you have no idea what salvation entails?

If you understand salvation as what the term morphologically means, "wholeness" or "healing", which implies a present-centered state of transformation, also supported in scripture by Jesus referring to eternal life as relating in a proper way to God (John 17:3), and you know what's involved in working out your salvation (Phil 2:12), then everything becomes incredibly relevant, and of course it makes sense to have Jesus as my lord, because I actually know what it means to be saved under his lordship.

Well said.

 

[Emmy]

Dear

 

[mark kennedy]

As a point of order, Lordship Salvation is a rather recent invention.

From what I understand it was a response to the Personal Salvation theology that arose within Pentecostalism.

R.C. Sproul describes the controversy as it originates in a running debate between John MacArthur and Zane Hodges and Charles Ryrie:

In the final quarter of the twentieth century, the last bastion of evangelical unity was put under siege. The problem became manifest in two distinct areas. The first was the outbreak within the ranks of dispensationalism of the "Lordship salvation" controversy. This controversy was carried on chiefly between John MacArthur on one side and Zane Hodges and Charles Ryrie on the other. The chief question in dispute was whether a person can be saved by embracing Jesus as Savior but not as Lord. At issue were the necessary conditions or requirements for justification. The debate did not center on merit and grace, but it did and continues to center on faith and works. (Faith Alone. The Evangelical Doctrine of Justification. R.C. Sproul)
​

John MacArthur is a leading evangelical teacher, his program Grace to You was a staple in my early years as a Christian. He has this to say about Lordship Salvation:

This shallow understanding of salvation and the gospel, known as "easy-believism," stands in stark contrast to what the Bible teaches. To put it simply, the gospel call to faith presupposes that sinners must repent of their sin and yield to Christ's authority. This, in a nutshell, is what is commonly referred to as lordship salvation. (An Introduction to Lordship Salvation)
​

If you are interested in the pro and con of this, Theopedia has a pretty balanced presentation:

Lordship salvation is the position that receiving Christ involves a turning in the heart from sin and, as a part of faith, a submissive commitment to obey Jesus Christ as Lord. It also maintains that progressive sanctification and perseverance must necessarily follow conversion. Those who hold to the doctrine of perseverance of the saints see this not only as a requirement, but an assured certainty according to the sustaining grace of Christ. Lordship Salvation
​

For me the solution is found in the simplicity of the Gospel, rather then the exquisite semantics involved in the formal theology. So often it is easy for forget what the works of righteousness are before we start debating whether or not they are required.

Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. (Matt. 11:9)
​

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[DoubtfulSalvation]

It is written, "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent." (Revelation 3:19)

Yea, not sure what you are going on about, but I did have a question. Does having the hebrew (correct?) writing in your forum name mean you have more salvation than everyone else? Also, am I any more or less saved if i prefer to call him Jesus or do I have to say Yeshua? We need to make everything clear, so there is no confusion going forward.

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT

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[ToBeLoved]

It is written, "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent." (Revelation 3:19)

What else does God say about why He chastens His Own?