How can the grace of God be resisted by some yet received by others?

[EmSw]

Non sequitur. Seriously, don't you tire of that?

No, I get plenty of sleep and take vitamins.

 

[EmSw]

Okay.

How about that, you do believe like an Arminian. Congratulations.

 

[EmSw]

You can think about it for as long or short as you'd like. But it has nothing to do with the question I asked.

Lemonade has nothing to do with peanut butter either, but I still eat it.

 

[EmSw]

Nobody's.

Then, from where did 'of the elect' come?

 

[EmSw]

If you used this hermaneutic, you couldn't apply very much of the Bible's spiritual truths or instructions to yourself today.

If you really think that way about Peter, that means you might as well tear 1st and 2nd Peter out of your Bible because they weren't written directly to you, thus, none of it applies to you.

In fact, just throw away your entire New Testament, because none of it was written to you as you didn't exist when it was written.

Romans was written to Romans. You're not Roman so ignore Romans.
Hebrews was written to Hebrews. You're not a Hebrew so just tear that out of your Bible, too.

I swear, the lengths people go through to ignore something that refutes their position is ridiculous.

So you see how silly it is to say it is to a certain group of people then?

 

[MennoSota]

I have a slightly different understanding.

In God's Word it says that Christ conquered sin. All of sin. Wiped it out, whipped it fanny.

For both the saved and the unsaved. So Christ did not die for only the sins of the elect/saved. But for both, but one must be saved for their sin to be forgiven.

1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,

This is in disagreement with the Calvinist view that Jesus only died for the sins of the elect.

1 Peter 3
[18]Christ suffered for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit.

To whom is the "our sins" referring? Was Peter writing to all humanity or to Christians?

I love it when people quote 1 Peter 3 as a free will verse, because the context is exactly the opposite. 1 Peter 3:18 is entirely promoting limited atonement for God's chosen, adopted, children.

Thanks for bringing this up.

 

[Hank77]

Only teaching that of those who are saved in his letters, they are written to believers are they not?

Your of the opinion then, that all the gentiles are chosen of God to be saved?
Except that it is of these gentiles are some chosen as are some jews, while the rest are blinded.

Example, of 'us whom He called' in v24 are to be shown mercy as vessels of mercy, and Paul is writing this in reference to saved persons, as clearly contrasted with vessels of wrath.

Romans 9:20-24New King James Version (NKJV)
20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

So some called, some not called.

I only quoted 2 Tim. and did not refer to Romans at all, so why are you speaking as though I had?

Your of the opinion then, that all the gentiles are chosen of God to be saved?

No. Where did you get that idea from? The scripture says 'MAY' be saved. In other words the opportunity is equally available to Gentiles as it was/is to Jews.

 

[sdowney717]

I will be very plain speaking, those who say a born of God, saved person can lose their salvation are trying to deceive, and are doing Satan's bidding.
You can easily read of how eternal life is everlasting never to perish for those who have it in many scriptures, but 1 John 2:26-27 really nails it again.
If they do not believe what Christ says about never perishing, then they certainly won't believe what His apostles say about abiding in Him.
John declares they will abide in Him since they have an anointing from the Holy One to know all things. What John means is the Holy Spirit teaches you concerning all things you need to know.
If someone does not have the Spirit then they are none of His and will of course depart the faith for demonic doctrine.
For those who do not abide in Him, they are antichrists and are "not of us" and they deny His words, what He said, who He really is and what He does which is save His people from their sins, because He is the Christ of God who takes away your sins so that God will not remember them anymore.
That is what the New Covenant is all about.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

Deceptions of the Last Hour
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

Let Truth Abide in You
24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.

26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you.
27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

 

[EmSw]

I will be very plain speaking, those who say a born of God, saved person can lose their salvation are trying to deceive, and are doing Satan's bidding.
You can easily read of how eternal life is everlasting never to perish for those who have it in many scriptures, but 1 John 2:26-27 really nails it again.
If they do not believe what Christ says about never perishing, then they certainly won't believe what His apostles say about abiding in Him.
John declares they will abide in Him since they have an anointing from the Holy One to know all things. What John means is the Holy Spirit teaches you concerning all things you need to know.
If someone does not have the Spirit then they are none of His and will of course depart the faith for demonic doctrine.
For those who do not abide in Him, they are antichrists and are "not of us" and they deny His words, what He said, who He really is and what He does which is save His people from their sins, because He is the Christ of God who takes away your sins so that God will not remember them anymore.
That is what the New Covenant is all about.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

Deceptions of the Last Hour
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

Let Truth Abide in You
24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.

26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you.
27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

Why are you so obsessed with anti-christs? Anti-christs are those who deny the Father and Son. They can't depart from the faith, for they were never a part of it.

 

[ToBeLoved]

1 Peter 3
[18]Christ suffered for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit.

To whom is the "our sins" referring? Was Peter writing to all humanity or to Christians?

I love it when people quote 1 Peter 3 as a free will verse, because the context is exactly the opposite. 1 Peter 3:18 is entirely promoting limited atonement for God's chosen, adopted, children.

Thanks for bringing this up.

Well, then Christ didn't conquer sin and death in your scenario. Maybe you don't think He could.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Romans 11:29
29 For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable.

 

[faroukfarouk]

I dunno about that. That He 'might' bring us to God. I'm not so sure about that.

What does Matthew Henry have to say about it?

I think there it's a modal verb/subjective 'might', rather than the 'if' of doubt.

 

[MennoSota]

Well, then Christ didn't conquer sin and death in your scenario. Maybe you don't think He could.

Contrare. He absolutely took God's wrath for the sins of God's children. He has ensured that not one of God's adopted children will be lost.

If God had atoned for all humanity and yet the majority go to hell, then either God is weak or He is unjust in condemning people for whom the price has been paid.

Since God atoned only for His chosen adopted children, He is neither weak, nor unjust. Instead, He displays grace and mercy upon whom He wills. (Read Romans 9)

 

[OzSpen]

He desires none of the elect to perish.

Context, context, context.

Now tell us what you are driving at. 'Context, context, context' is a useless statement without your telling us the context you want us to understand.

2 Peter 3:1-13 (ESV) states:

This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, 2 that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Saviour through your apostles, 3 knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. 4 They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, 6 and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. 7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgement and destruction of the ungodly.

8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slow to fulfil his promise as some count slowness, but is patient towards you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.

11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, 12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! 13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells (emphasis added).
​

What, in this context, demonstrates that the Lord does not wish ANY people to perish?

There is not a word here about what you, in your eisegesis, want it to mean: 'He desires none of the elect to perish'. That's as good a postmodern invention as I've read in quite a while.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

1 Peter 3
[18]Christ suffered for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit.

To whom is the "our sins" referring? Was Peter writing to all humanity or to Christians?

I love it when people quote 1 Peter 3 as a free will verse, because the context is exactly the opposite. 1 Peter 3:18 is entirely promoting limited atonement for God's chosen, adopted, children.

Thanks for bringing this up.

MennoSota,

The problems with your Calvinistic position include:

1. Your view contradicts Scripture, 'He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world' (1 John 2:2 ESV, emphasis added). So, Christ not only appeases the wrath of God (propitiation) for believers' sins but also 'for the sins of the whole world'. No matter how many twists and turns you give us, you can't get out of John's teaching that Jesus's propitiation is available for the sins of the whole world.
2. This does not teach universalism, but demonstrates the availability of God's propitiatory sacrifice (with the accompanying forgiveness-repentance) for all sinners in the entire world.
3. This highlights the Calvinistic brick wall that God can appease his wrath against ALL sinners through Christ's atonement, make salvation available to all (John 3:16), but individuals need to do as the Philippian jailer had to do in response to the message preached by Paul and Silas, 'Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household'.

However, the possibility of your accepting that three-step view seems to be close to zero from what you've written here.

You state the exact problem with your argument: 'If God had atoned for all humanity and yet the majority go to hell, then either God is weak or He is unjust in condemning people for whom the price has been paid'.

This view is shipwrecked on the biblical grounds of God's providing atonement for all and the Gospel of 'whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life' (John 3:16 ESV).

Biblical teaching is that God provides salvation that is available to everyone in the world but it is only experienced by those who place their faith in Jesus' propitiatory sacrifice/atonement (see Luke 8:12; John 20:31; Acts 16:31; and Romans 1:16; 10:9).

Can't you see that it is Calvinism that provides the insurmountable leap that is needed to avoided the exact teaching of Scripture? I am open to listening to your argument for this limited atonement view, but it crashes on the rocks of Scripture.

Oz

 

[ToBeLoved]

1 Peter 3
[18]Christ suffered for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit.

To whom is the "our sins" referring? Was Peter writing to all humanity or to Christians?

I love it when people quote 1 Peter 3 as a free will verse, because the context is exactly the opposite. 1 Peter 3:18 is entirely promoting limited atonement for God's chosen, adopted, children.

Thanks for bringing this up.

Well let's look at this verse closer then.

In the Greek, the word for the 'unjust' used is

ἀδίκων,
adikōn
Strong's Concordance
adikos: unjust, unrighteous
Original Word: ἄδικος, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: adikos
Phonetic Spelling: (ad'-ee-kos)
Short Definition: unjust, unrighteous
Definition: unjust, unrighteous, wicked.
http://biblehub.com/greek/adiko_n_94.htm
HELPS Word-studies

Cognate: 94 ádikos (an adjective, derived from 1 /A "no" and 1349 /díkē, "justice") – properly, without justice; unjust, because violating what God says is just; divinely disapproved. See 93 (adikia).

94/ádikos ("unjust") is injustice as a breach of divine justice, i.e. in violation of God's standards. 94 /ádikos ("unjust") describes being found guilty in God's court of law, i.e. as a binding, legal infraction against His law which calls for divine retribution for disrespecting true justice.


This word, "adikon" has three occurances in the Greek New Testament. Used in the following verses:

ἀδίκων (adikōn) — 3 Occurrences

Acts 24:15
15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
1 Corinthians 6:1
1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
1 Peter 3:18
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:


So, it seems to me that you are wrong. Both Acts 24:15 as well as 1 Corinthians 6:1 clearly is using the word to refer to sinners that are not saints.

I look forward to your response if you disagree.

 

[ToBeLoved]

MennoSota,

The problems with your Calvinistic position include:

1. Your view contradicts Scripture, 'He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world' (1 John 2:2 ESV, emphasis added). So, Christ not only appeases the wrath of God (propitiation) for believers' sins but also 'for the sins of the whole world'. No matter how many twists and turns you give us, you can't get out of John's teaching that Jesus's propitiation is available for the sins of the whole world.
2. This does not teach universalism, but demonstrates the availability of God's propitiatory sacrifice (with the accompanying forgiveness-repentance) for all sinners in the entire world.
3. This highlights the Calvinistic brick wall that God can appease his wrath against ALL sinners through Christ's atonement, make salvation available to all (John 3:16), but individuals need to do as the Philippian jailer had to do in response to the message preached by Paul and Silas, 'Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household'.

However, the possibility of your accepting that three-step view seems to be close to zero from what you've written here.

You state the exact problem with your argument: 'If God had atoned for all humanity and yet the majority go to hell, then either God is weak or He is unjust in condemning people for whom the price has been paid'.

This view is shipwrecked on the biblical grounds of God's providing atonement for all and the Gospel of 'whoever believes shall be saved'.

Can't you see that it is Calvinism that provides the insurmountable leap that is needed to avoided the exact teaching of Scripture? I am open to listening to your argument for this limited atonement view, but it crashes on the rocks of Scripture (1 John 2:2).

Oz

See my post above Oz. The Greek clearly agrees with us. Calvinism is WRONG!

 

[Hammster]

I'm afraid you will have to answer that question with more than a simple, no.

It seems to me that God was pleased when Cyrus believed God and obeyed him. What tells you that God was not pleased?

Where do you see that God was pleased? Where do you see that Cyrus' intentions were to glorify God?

 

[Hammster]

Then, from where did 'of the elect' come?

Scripture speaks of the elect. Peter addressed the elect. Context matters. Skala has explained it quite well in numerous posts. No need to add to that.

 

[OzSpen]

Contrare. He absolutely took God's wrath for the sins of God's children. He has ensured that not one of God's adopted children will be lost.

If God had atoned for all humanity and yet the majority go to hell, then either God is weak or He is unjust in condemning people for whom the price has been paid.

Since God atoned only for His chosen adopted children, He is neither weak, nor unjust. Instead, He displays grace and mercy upon whom He wills. (Read Romans 9)

MennoSota,

I notice that you have now edited out what you had originally written that stated, 'I love it when people quote 1 Peter 3 as a free will verse, because the context is exactly the opposite. 1 Peter 3:18 is entirely promoting limited atonement for God's chosen, adopted, children'.

So you should have deleted it because it is 2 Peter 3:9 (ESV) that states: 'The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance'.

Norman Geisler's comment on 2 Peter 3:9 is that:

The "any" and "all" are called upon to repent. Also, the "all" who need to repent cannot mean the "beloved," (vv. 1, 8), since they were already saved and in no need of repenting. In addition, this would mean that God is not calling on the non-elect to repent, which is clearly opposed to other Scriptures where "he commands all people everywhere to repent" (Acts 17:30). "All people everywhere" does not mean "some people everywhere" or "some people somewhere." The text speaks for itself (1999. Chosen But Free, Bethany House Publishers, pp. 199-200).​

The idea that Jesus didn't die for the sins of the whole world, all people everywhere, is not a biblical view. It must be rejected by those who believe the Bible.

Oz