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Real time or evo time?

Kylie

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To claim this you would have to know what difference we are talking about. You don't. Your whole basis is how things work now. The things that MAKE atoms join together, repel, or anything else are determined by forces and laws.

And you claim that those laws were different in the past. So, let's say you are right. The laws were different. Atoms that are joined together in our present state, why, maybe they were repelled in the past state! That means that carbon, oxygen, nitrogen and hydrogen wouldn't have joined together they way they do now. That means no carbohydrates. Obviously, a diet with zero carbohydrates (and who knows what other nutrients) means humans would have needed a completely different digestive system.

In this present nature, atoms share electrons and do stuff a certain way. This is all we see now. If they shared differently in the past you would have no way of knowing now.

"
There are two basic kinds of bonds - covalent and ionic.

Covalent bonds happen when two atoms share electrons - kind of like 2 atoms holding hands. When at least 2 atoms get together by sharing electrons, they form a molecule.

Ionic bonds happen when one atom gives at least one electron to another atom. Awwww, isn't that nice?!

Picture this: Two atoms sit next to each other. One atom needs an electron, and the other atom has an extra electron. Perfect! Once the electron gets handed over, the atoms are no longer atoms - they're ions, and they each have a charge - one plus (+ positive) and one minus (- negative).

Remember that each atom started with enough (-) electrons to match each (+) proton in its nucleus. The atom that gets an extra electron ends up with a (-) charge and is called an anion (sounds like ann-eye-on). The atom that gives away an electron ends up with a (+) charge and is called a cation (sounds like cat-eye-on).

Now, those (+) and (-) charges have a strong attraction to each other - they sit next to each other and refuse to move. And guess what? That's an ionic bond! - the strong attraction between ions with opposite charges. Table salt is a good example of a common ionic compound. (Table salt is also called sodium chloride.) Click here for even more info.See a 3-D model of the ions here.

http://www.pslc.ws/macrog/kidsmac/atom_str.htm



http://www.pslc.ws/macrog/kidsmac/images/nacltoon.gif

Since you are obviously capable of finding scientific information designed to be understood by people who have a limited scientific understanding, I have to wonder why you don't take advantage of it.

Of course, given that you just cut and pasted a chunk of text, I suspect that you didn't understand that much of it.

I mean what if the little girl atom in the pic was more loving in the former nature and shared a few electrons, or less loving and shared none..or etc etc etc? You can't look just at the happily married atom couple now and say they always were married.

If she was "more loving", then I suppose that she would have a stronger bond with her "boyfriend" atom. That would mean that the molecule the two of them formed would require more energy to split up. Which would mean that certain chemical reactions would never happen. Lots of different chemical reactions, actually. Given that these chemical reactions are required for life to exist, any difference in the way the chemical reactions would mean that life would NOT exist, or at least, exist in a very different way to what we see in the present state.
 
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dad

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So when you see a skyscraper a mile away, that skyscraper isn't actually a mile away, it's "here," as in, where you are
See a skyscraper at the stars? N. Man's stuff is in the realm of man. In the solar system, possibly beyond...we know time exists. Don't pretend that a skyscraper or plane on earth is relevant.

Look up in the sky and see the Moon..
See above...the moon is in the solar system. Light here travels and behaves a certain way.
In short, doesn't your claim that.....
In short, try to get on topic, and that topic is (when dealing with time and the far universe) - whether time exists as we know it way out in the universe..not whether it exists here. Be honest.
 
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dad

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And you claim that those laws were different in the past. So, let's say you are right. The laws were different. Atoms that are joined together in our present state, why, maybe they were repelled in the past state! That means that carbon, oxygen, nitrogen and hydrogen wouldn't have joined together they way they do now.
No. That means that the atomic realities may have been different. In some cases, possibly an element could have changed radically, because as we know, one electron proton or something can make the difference between say, gold, and mercury etc. In most cases though one suspects, that the changes did not radically change elements. You would need to know what the former forces and laws were to be able to determine that!

One example, at a larger level might be the planets and moon. If gravity was different in some way, or even if it was the same more or less, but there was another force that balanced or countered gravity, we could have the moon or planets closer or further in the past. Who knows? After all, there was a lot of activity in the solar system, with a lot of debris flying around, so maybe some of that could have been due to a big change and movement?!


That means no carbohydrates. Obviously, a diet with zero carbohydrates (and who knows what other nutrients) means humans would have needed a completely different digestive system.
Ha! Well, we only started eating meat after the flood probably, as did most animals! In the future, lions will eat grass, so another change is on the way! Whatever the atomic realities were in the former state, and what effect they had on food, was all perfectly planned.

For the bible to be true, it seems to me we need really big changes to account for the many many centuries we used to live, and the different diet, and different way plants grew very fast etc.
Since you are obviously capable of finding scientific information designed to be understood by people who have a limited scientific understanding, I have to wonder why you don't take advantage of it.
Flattery will get you everywhere:)

If she was "more loving", then I suppose that she would have a stronger bond with her "boyfriend" atom.

Not a stronger bond under present laws.
That would mean that the molecule the two of them formed would require more energy to split up. Which would mean that certain chemical reactions would never happen. Lots of different chemical reactions, actually.

You should remember that the forces like the strong and weak nuclear forces ..spin..etc all determine what atoms do. Yes, chemical reactions could have been different in many cases. After all, if radioactive decay did not exist as we now it now, that involves a lot more than just a couple of atoms being attracted more or less to each other.

Since the change would have been made by the creator, there was no chance involved. No luck. No accidents. God knew exactly what needed to be done and what needed to remain somewhat the same.
 
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TLK Valentine

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See a skyscraper at the stars? N. Man's stuff is in the realm of man. In the solar system, possibly beyond...we know time exists. Don't pretend that a skyscraper or plane on earth is relevant.

See above...the moon is in the solar system. Light here travels and behaves a certain way.

In short, try to get on topic, and that topic is (when dealing with time and the far universe) - whether time exists as we know it way out in the universe..not whether it exists here. Be honest.

You only know that these things exist in our time and space because you can see and hear them... If you took your own advice, you'd admit that you can see the stars for the exact same reason.
 
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dad

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You only know that these things exist in our time and space because you can see and hear them... If you took your own advice, you'd admit that you can see the stars for the exact same reason.
Don't get sore just because your attempted comparison of the distant universe, to skyskapers bit it!
 
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TLK Valentine

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Don't get sore just because your attempted comparison of the distant universe, to skyskapers bit it!

How so? All I've done is demonstrate that you deny the concept of "there." Everything in your universe is right "here."
 
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dad

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How so? All I've done is demonstrate that you deny the concept of "there." Everything in your universe is right "here."
The concept of 'there' in the far universe cannot be equated or limited to the concept of what is under you nose, or in your closet.
 
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TLK Valentine

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The concept of 'there' in the far universe cannot be equated or limited to the concept of what is under you nose, or in your closet.

You keep the Moon in your closet? How odd...
 
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dad

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You keep the Moon in your closet? How odd...
Compared to the universe, the skyscrapers or even moon might as well be in your closet. How odd that you would try to base all reality of the universe on that.
 
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TLK Valentine

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Compared to the universe, the skyscrapers or even moon might as well be in your closet. How odd that you would try to base all reality of the universe on that.

Have you ever been to the moon? Ever met anyone who claimed to have been? You know nothing about it, but you assume it's in your closet because you can see it.
 
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dad

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Have you ever been to the moon? Ever met anyone who claimed to have been? You know nothing about it, but you assume it's in your closet because you can see it.
Man has been there, yes. Whoopee do. You thought that meant man has been to the far corners of the universe?

You don't even know what is under the earth we live on. What you think you know is a joke.
 
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Kylie

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No. That means that the atomic realities may have been different.
Yes, the way atoms worked back then was completely different, but everything worked pretty much the same as it does today. *Rolls eyes*

In some cases, possibly an element could have changed radically, because as we know, one electron proton or something can make the difference between say, gold, and mercury etc. In most cases though one suspects, that the changes did not radically change elements.

So you are guessing again?

You would need to know what the former forces and laws were to be able to determine that!

I find it quite amusing that you have created a reputation on this site as someone who claims the laws were different in the past - and yet you can't give us any details at all about what the differences were!

One example, at a larger level might be the planets and moon. If gravity was different in some way, or even if it was the same more or less, but there was another force that balanced or countered gravity, we could have the moon or planets closer or further in the past. Who knows?

And more amusing that you claim there were differences, and then invent imaginary things to counteract those differences so that everything still worked the same as it does today. Even you realise that the world described in the Bible before the flood was pretty much the same as the world is today.

After all, there was a lot of activity in the solar system, with a lot of debris flying around, so maybe some of that could have been due to a big change and movement?!

Except present state laws model that early solar system quite nicely. No need for a DSP there!

Ha! Well, we only started eating meat after the flood probably, as did most animals!

Yes, I'm sure mosquitoes were vegetarians.

In the future, lions will eat grass, so another change is on the way!

Yeah, more guessing. You have no evidence of this whatsoever.

Whatever the atomic realities were in the former state, and what effect they had on food, was all perfectly planned.

You need to realise that simply making claims like this is not going to convince me. I'm not going to say, "Well, maybe I'll believe it, since Dad seems to know what he is talking about." Primarily because you have demonstrated many times that you do not know what you are talking about, and all you are doing is repeating your ideas about the Bible.

For the bible to be true, it seems to me we need really big changes to account for the many many centuries we used to live, and the different diet, and different way plants grew very fast etc.

Then maybe the Bible is NOT true. *GASP!*

Flattery will get you everywhere:)

*Sighs and shakes head*

Not a stronger bond under present laws.

I thought it was quite clear that we were talking about your supposed DSP laws.

Did you forget what we were talking about again?

You should remember that the forces like the strong and weak nuclear forces ..spin..etc all determine what atoms do. Yes, chemical reactions could have been different in many cases. After all, if radioactive decay did not exist as we now it now, that involves a lot more than just a couple of atoms being attracted more or less to each other.

Then the way the universe operated back then would have been even more different! The more changes, the more differences we would expect to see! So why then were the people back then the same as us? Two arms, two legs, standing upright, blood pumped by a heart, food digested by enzymes... How do you even know that enzymes existed back then if the laws were so different?

Since the change would have been made by the creator, there was no chance involved. No luck. No accidents. God knew exactly what needed to be done and what needed to remain somewhat the same.

Once again, your claims by themselves are not enough to come close to making a decent argument.
 
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dad

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Okay. You tell yourself that.

The differences in the past had to be big enough to allow us to live many many centuries, and trees to grow in weeks, and spirits to live on earth, and etc etc. The important thing is not to know exactly what the differences were, but whether things were different. Once we know that, all else becomes somewhat minor of an issue. Science needs to be able to prove things were the same..laws, forces...or else it cannot claim they were. The burden of proof is on them, since they use the same state past to model all things regarding future and past.
 
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TLK Valentine

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Man has been there, yes. Whoopee do. You thought that meant man has been to the far corners of the universe?

You've met the men who have allegedly been there? Or are you taking science's word for it?
 
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dad

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You've met the men who have allegedly been there? Or are you taking science's word for it?
I take science for what it really is , and what is known. Be reasonable. If you doubt there are probes, maybe this is not the thread for you.
 
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TLK Valentine

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I take science for what it really is , and what is known. Be reasonable. If you doubt there are probes, maybe this is not the thread for you.

So you trust science, then -- more than you trust your own eyes.
 
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dad

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So you trust science, then -- more than you trust your own eyes.

In some cases, of course. Give unto science what is science's -- but we must admit the real limits, and toss out their evil little fables about creation.
 
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TLK Valentine

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In some cases, of course. Give unto science what is science's -- but we must admit the real limits, and toss out their evil little fables about creation.

But you don't even know what their limits are -- you use nothing but your own guesswork... and I've never seen you acknowledge any limits of your own.
 
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