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How can the grace of God be resisted by some yet received by others?

Job8

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Some here believe they are self-quickening... And God's grace is not 100% effective. They must add to it to get the grace to work properly.
I believe that you are not only misrepresenting others, but you have failed to grasp how God's grace works to bring sinners to salvation. You have the false idea that dead means in the grave, or something similar. Well that was never the idea. So here is a quick summation of what Scripture really teaches.

1. All men (people) are sinners and can only be saved by grace through faith.
2. Christ died for all humanity, hence God desires the salvation of all.
3. Christ has commanded His Church to preach the Gospel to every creature so that all could be saved.
4. The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation, and faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God (which is also called the Gospel by Peter).
5. When the Word is preached (as it ought to) then the Holy Spirit uses it as sword to bring conviction and convincing to human hearts.
6. So it is under the supernatural influence of the Gospel and the Holy Spirit that sinners are saved.

I trust you will get rid of all your false notions about this matter, and check out Scripture for yourself. Everything stated above is backed up 100% with Scripture,
 
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Job8

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How about some pertinent Bible verses please ?
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Rom 8:29).

What is the purpose of predestination? Is it salvation or is it perfection (the image of Christ)?

Is predestination (election) according to foreknowledge, or according to Divine decree? The answer is right there.
 
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bottomofsandal

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For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Rom 8:29).

What is the purpose of predestination? Is it salvation or is it perfection (the image of Christ)?

Is predestination (election) according to foreknowledge, or according to Divine decree? The answer is right there.
So. God's grace cannot be resisted?

This IS the topic.
 
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Geralt

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well i have written over and over again, there is no issue on using your freedom to choose.

your pelagian insistence the unregenerate can choose between good and evil is the problem, not the choosing which like a flame you circle around until you get burned out. even if we assume you are correct, then how come no one is good ? Luke 18:19 , did you ever think about that ? nothing wrong in humans choosing between good and evil, yet for many millennia none of them is good ?

and how about this one, maybe scripture made a mistake ?

Gen 6:5 The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

no significance?

in all your arguments you ignore the effects of the fall, perhaps you even consider that a myth, a placebo effect? c'mon tell us your belief, so we can finally conclude the heresy.
Why is it not about free will to choose between good and evil? Here was the first words out of your mouth -

"you can see your own dilemma yourself, but would not admit it.
first you presume man has absolute free will to (choose) between good and evil, yet many will not choose good."


Are you moving the goal posts now?

That's great. So you could freely choose to do good over evil while unsaved. Why didn't you say that in the first place?

Perhaps you can give us scripture to prove the standard of God is choosing evil. Perhaps you think heaven is for those practicing evil. Perhaps you think God will do His best and give blessings to the evil man. I'm sorry friend, you are going to have to provide scripture for that. Get a good concordance and start searching.
I'm afraid it is about free will and choosing between good and evil. If you think God wants and desires for us to freely choose evil, your understanding of God is flawed. Perhaps you should do a study on God's judgment and tell us why He judges a man. Let me give you your first hint - it's about a man's works, whether they are good or evil.
 
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bottomofsandal

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well i have written over and over again, there is no issue on using your freedom to choose.

your pelagian insistence the unregenerate can choose between good and evil is the problem, not the choosing which like a flame you circle around until you get burned out. even if we assume you are correct, then how come no one is good ? Luke 18:19 , did you ever think about that ? nothing wrong in humans choosing between good and evil, yet for many millennia none of them is good ?

and how about this one, maybe scripture made a mistake ?

Gen 6:5 The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

no significance?

in all your arguments you ignore the effects of the fall, perhaps you even consider that a myth, a placebo effect? c'mon tell us your belief, so we can finally conclude the heresy.
You did it again...LOL
I am addressing the brother who says he is neither Calvinist, nor Arminian.
I always ask hypothetical questions to clarify and understand a pov.


When I do this you confuse my inquiry with my position...
 
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bottomofsandal

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I believe that you are not only misrepresenting others, but you have failed to grasp how God's grace works to bring sinners to salvation. You have the false idea that dead means in the grave, or something similar. Well that was never the idea. So here is a quick summation of what Scripture really teaches.

1. All men (people) are sinners and can only be saved by grace through faith.
2. Christ died for all humanity, hence God desires the salvation of all.
3. Christ has commanded His Church to preach the Gospel to every creature so that all could be saved.
4. The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation, and faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God (which is also called the Gospel by Peter).
5. When the Word is preached (as it ought to) then the Holy Spirit uses it as sword to bring conviction and convincing to human hearts.
6. So it is under the supernatural influence of the Gospel and the Holy Spirit that sinners are saved.

I trust you will get rid of all your false notions about this matter, and check out Scripture for yourself. Everything stated above is backed up 100% with Scripture,
Dead means dead in trespasses and sins. Ephesians 2:1
You appear to disagree with this truth and have promoted man's status and ability.

To use your own system...let's look at #5 & #6
Is there a 100% success rate or does God fail to save some men?
Is God's grace making salvation successful or can grace be resisted?
 
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Geralt

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sorry bos, i am not responding to you but to emsw (quoting him)., unless you and him are the same guy with multiple name accounts ??

if you want to get in, then please try to read his arguments and then read mine ok.

You did it again...LOL
I am addressing the brother who says he is neither Calvinist, nor Arminian.
I always ask hypothetical questions to clarify and understand a pov.

When I do this you confuse my inquiry with my position...
 
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EmSw

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well i have written over and over again, there is no issue on using your freedom to choose.

your pelagian insistence the unregenerate can choose between good and evil is the problem, not the choosing which like a flame you circle around until you get burned out. even if we assume you are correct, then how come no one is good ? Luke 18:19 , did you ever think about that ? nothing wrong in humans choosing between good and evil, yet for many millennia none of them is good ?​


If only God is good, how does man do good? All good comes from God. Many want to say God has nothing to do with unregenerate man. But, if you believe only God is good, then the good man does must come from God.

and how about this one, maybe scripture made a mistake ?

No mistake, only human understanding which cannot grasp it.

Gen 6:5 The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

no significance?

Noah says hello. How about that, Noah freely chose to believe God while his wickedness was great.

in all your arguments you ignore the effects of the fall, perhaps you even consider that a myth, a placebo effect? c'mon tell us your belief, so we can finally conclude the heresy.

Here's my belief -

Ezekiel 18
1 The word of the Lord came to me again, saying,
2 “What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying:

‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge’?

3 “As I live,” says the Lord God, “you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.
4 “Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine; the soul who sins shall die.


You call the word of God a myth, a heresy; I call it the truth.

You keep wanting to use this proverb when God you shall no longer use this proverb.
 
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Job8

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To use your own system...let's look at #5 & #6
Is there a 100% success rate or does God fail to save some men?
In order to have a 100% success rate God would either have to (a) compel all to be saved or (b) make it impossible to resist the Holy Spirit.
Is God's grace making salvation successful or can grace be resisted?
Grace can be -- and is -- resisted every day. Study the enemies of Christ in the Gospels, resisting grace daily.
 
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sdowney717

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In order to have a 100% success rate God would either have to (a) compel all to be saved or (b) make it impossible to resist the Holy Spirit.

Grace can be -- and is -- resisted every day. Study the enemies of Christ in the Gospels, resisting grace daily.
Paul resisted the grace of God, until he couldn't.

Christ said Paul was hurting himself by kicking against God's goads. Goads are use to shepherd animals in the way the shepherd desires.
God's purpose cannot be thwarted, ultimately He always wins.

Romans 9
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
 
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Job8

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Paul resisted the grace of God, until he couldn't.
And Judas Iscariot resisted the grace of God and could not avoid betraying Christ. Please study the enemies of Christ who had every opportunity and every reason to believe on Him, but resisted the grace of God. Are you going to assert that God wanted them all in Hell?
 
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EmSw

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And Judas Iscariot resisted the grace of God and could not avoid betraying Christ. Please study the enemies of Christ who had every opportunity and every reason to believe on Him, but resisted the grace of God. Are you going to assert that God wanted them all in Hell?

And Judas was drawn to Jesus. After being called by the Master Himself, Judas willingly came to Jesus.
 
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bottomofsandal

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Grace can be -- and is -- resisted every day. Study the enemies of Christ in the Gospels, resisting grace daily.
Are we to believe in a weak grace that cannot overcome man's objections?
That is what you seem to want us to get a handle on... God's WEAK grace.

Sure grace is resisted...common grace has appeared to all men.
Effectual, saving grace saves to the uttermost. Grace cannot fail.

Why would you believe God could not accomplish something?
Unless perhaps you believe man's resistance is greater than God's grace?
 
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sdowney717

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And Judas Iscariot resisted the grace of God and could not avoid betraying Christ. Please study the enemies of Christ who had every opportunity and every reason to believe on Him, but resisted the grace of God. Are you going to assert that God wanted them all in Hell?

Actually, no Judas was a devil, called so by Christ.
Are devils saved? They are spiritually the pigs and swine Peter writes of, they return to the filth of this world, being false brethren.

Do you ever read where Jesus prays for Judas?
Christ does pray for Peter that his faith will not fail.
Both Judas and Peter had Satan speaking through them. The only difference is Christs intercession is for the saints only, and that is according to the will of God.
Christ does not pray for the world.

John 17:9New King James Version (NKJV)
9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.
 
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com7fy8

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Hi, Bottom :) Below, I am offering what I have learned, but I don't know if it matches with any official person or group's ideas.
Is the grace of God irresistible as the "I" in TULIP proclaims?
I understand that God's grace includes the almighty action of His love's power; so yes it is irresistible, as far as unstoppable power is concerned. And ones who have experienced God's love would say His love is so good and satisfying that they can not resist whatsoever the grace of His love has them doing :)

Maybe it's like how a block of frozen butter will become soft in the sunshine.

But I can't speak for what each individual believes the "I" of "TULIP" means, because I don't personally know anyone who says he or she believes in "I" of "TULIP". What it means in each one's real life is what I'm talking about - - - if and how it effects how one relates with God and loves any and all people like Jesus wants > Matthew 5:46.

What enables some men to receive the grace of God unto salvation?
God changes people to become receptive. I understand that this is included in how our Father draws someone > John 6:44. He changes how a person is, so then the person starts to be more and more receptive. And free will people, to my knowledge, do pray for God to soften the hearts of ones they are reaching for Christ. And certain predestination people might not pray for sinners. People in different groups can be not all alike :)

OTOH, what prevents some men from receiving God's grace?
the hardness of their hearts

But this does not mean God will never change them . . . for example, Saul.

Did God simply never offer the grace of God to the non-elect ?
God somehow does bless every person. Even the most wicked could not even be able to eat, if God did not somehow make them able to eat and to digest food . . . and to breathe. And I believe that in some way God is blessing every human, so ones can function somehow, mentally and emotionally, if not in salvation >

"For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe." (1 Timothy 4:10)

So, God is doing some kind of saving good to each and every human. But the saving good might not be spiritual, but could be how the person gets something to eat or does not become as much of an emotional basket case as he or she could have become. Plus, I understand that Jesus is the same Jesus offered to all people, and we know God is not willing that anyone perish. So, in His disposition in Himself He is desiring that anyone be saved, though this does not actually happen. And Jesus on the cross had hope for any evil person, at all. And He has us loving any and all people, like this > love "hopes all things", we have in 1 Corinthians 13:7.

And so we need to have hope for any evil person, at all, and pray God's blessing to anyone, for howsoever He pleases to do any person good :)

Or was the grace of God offered to all men and some refused grace?
It is offered to all, but ones refuse.

Also, is man's freewill powerful enough that he is able to resist God?
Men do resist God, but they get nowhere except where He decides, in His all-control.

Why does God's grace only appear to work sometimes on some of the people?
I understand that all humans in sin are equal; so we humans of ourselves do not make exact opposite choices about Jesus . . . or else we would not be equal. But God makes the difference > He draws people to Jesus > John 6:44 >

"'No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.'" (John 6:44)

Yes, man must believe, choose, etc, but can God's grace really fail?
no

God succeeds in howsoever He pleases to bless each human. And all His blessing on the whole produces the end-game result that Jesus will have "many brethren" who are conformed to His image > Romans 8:29. Predestination, then, is not about only who controls what happens to people, but predestination is primarily about how our Heavenly Father will succeed in transforming many brethren into the image of Jesus.

However, there are arguers who go on and on about free will versus being elected, but they do not deal with what is basic > how to become conformed to the image of Jesus so we are loving and pleasing our Father by becoming like His Son > 1 John 4:17. This is what needs to get attention first, I would say.

Is the burden on man to somehow appropriate grace or will God's grace accomplish it's purpose?
God accomplishes His good and He changes people so we become His children who share with Him in His grace, in oneness with Him > 1 Corinthians 6:17. So, His grace makes us personally sharing with Him in us, in His love > Romans 5:5, Jude 20-21; so this is not only some intellectual and scholarly issue.

One might ask > "But do you think, then, that a person who believes in free will can be saved?"

I think there are free will people who understand God better than a number of predestination people do. And they help me to treat people like they do have free will . . . so I am not trying to boss myself over people and control people > 1 Peter 5:3. However, there are other free will people who can be very dominating and dictatorial and controlling.

As we become transformed to be like Jesus and how He has us loving . . . this is how we really get to know Jesus > by loving like He does, while being sweetly pleasing to our Father in His love > 1 Peter 3:4, 2 Corinthians 2:14-15, Ephesians 4:1-3, Ephesians 4:31-32, Ephesians 5:2. And this is how we discover the love meaning of His word, instead of only arguing in a more or less emotional game of word chess about beliefs.
 
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bottomofsandal

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Hi, Bottom :) Below, I am offering what I have learned, but I don't know if it matches with any official person or group's ideas.I understand that God's grace includes the almighty action of His love's power; so yes it is irresistible, as far as unstoppable power is concerned. And ones who have experienced God's love would say His love is so good and satisfying that they can not resist whatsoever the grace of His love has them doing :)

Maybe it's like how a block of frozen butter will become soft in the sunshine.

But I can't speak for what each individual believes the "I" of "TULIP" means, because I don't personally know anyone who says he or she believes in "I" of "TULIP". What it means in each one's real life is what I'm talking about - - - if and how it effects how one relates with God and loves any and all people like Jesus wants > Matthew 5:46.

God changes people to become receptive. I understand that this is included in how our Father draws someone > John 6:44. He changes how a person is, so then the person starts to be more and more receptive. And free will people, to my knowledge, do pray for God to soften the hearts of ones they are reaching for Christ. And certain predestination people might not pray for sinners. People in different groups can be not all alike :)

the hardness of their hearts

But this does not mean God will never change them . . . for example, Saul.

God somehow does bless every person. Even the most wicked could not even be able to eat, if God did not somehow make them able to eat and to digest food . . . and to breathe. And I believe that in some way God is blessing every human, so ones can function somehow, mentally and emotionally, if not in salvation >

"For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe." (1 Timothy 4:10)

So, God is doing some kind of saving good to each and every human. But the saving good might not be spiritual, but could be how the person gets something to eat or does not become as much of an emotional basket case as he or she could have become. Plus, I understand that Jesus is the same Jesus offered to all people, and we know God is not willing that anyone perish. So, in His disposition in Himself He is desiring that anyone be saved, though this does not actually happen. And Jesus on the cross had hope for any evil person, at all. And He has us loving any and all people, like this > love "hopes all things", we have in 1 Corinthians 13:7.

And so we need to have hope for any evil person, at all, and pray God's blessing to anyone, for howsoever He pleases to do any person good :)

It is offered to all, but ones refuse.

Men do resist God, but they get nowhere except where He decides, in His all-control.

I understand that all humans in sin are equal; so we humans of ourselves do not make exact opposite choices about Jesus . . . or else we would not be equal. But God makes the difference > He draws people to Jesus > John 6:44 >

"'No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.'" (John 6:44)

no

God succeeds in howsoever He pleases to bless each human. And all His blessing on the whole produces the end-game result that Jesus will have "many brethren" who are conformed to His image > Romans 8:29. Predestination, then, is not about only who controls what happens to people, but predestination is primarily about how our Heavenly Father will succeed in transforming many brethren into the image of Jesus.

However, there are arguers who go on and on about free will versus being elected, but they do not deal with what is basic > how to become conformed to the image of Jesus so we are loving and pleasing our Father by becoming like His Son > 1 John 4:17. This is what needs to get attention first, I would say.

God accomplishes His good and He changes people so we become His children who share with Him in His grace, in oneness with Him > 1 Corinthians 6:17. So, His grace makes us personally sharing with Him in us, in His love > Romans 5:5, Jude 20-21; so this is not only some intellectual and scholarly issue.

One might ask > "But do you think, then, that a person who believes in free will can be saved?"

I think there are free will people who understand God better than a number of predestination people do. And they help me to treat people like they do have free will . . . so I am not trying to boss myself over people and control people > 1 Peter 5:3. However, there are other free will people who can be very dominating and dictatorial and controlling.

As we become transformed to be like Jesus and how He has us loving . . . this is how we really get to know Jesus > by loving like He does, while being sweetly pleasing to our Father in His love > 1 Peter 3:4, 2 Corinthians 2:14-15, Ephesians 4:1-3, Ephesians 4:31-32, Ephesians 5:2. And this is how we discover the love meaning of His word, instead of only arguing in a more or less emotional game of word chess about beliefs.
Great thoughtful and spiritually provocative post! Thanks!
 
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Job8

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Are we to believe in a weak grace that cannot overcome man's objections?
That is what you seem to want us to get a handle on... God's WEAK grace.
You are mistaking grace for TYRANNY AND DESPOTISM. Please revise your views about God and His grace. Yeah, God's grace was so *weak* that He allowed Abraham to plead for Sodom and Gomorrah again and again.
 
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Job8

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Actually, no Judas was a devil, called so by Christ.
Actually no. Satan entered Judas AFTER he chose to betray Christ for 30 pieces of silver.

300px-Mattia_Preti_-_Tribute_Money_-_WGA18400.jpg
 
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OzSpen

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Problem is, you reject the scriptures as your authority in matters of faith.
Romans 8 is clear yet you deny the scripture and God's words such as foreknew and called and predestined and elect.
And your insolently flippant, boldly arrogant and self deceiving about those truths.

Romans 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

SD,

Here you give me another red herring fallacy. A red herring relates to when you don't deal with the issues I raise and are off and running with your own view that you think looks like what I was saying. But it isn't. See: Red herring fallacy (The Nizkor Project).

You also have lied about my views regarding Scripture. I do NOT reject the Scriptures as my authority in matters of faith. I accept and promote the inerrancy of Scripture.

You can't seem to grasp that when you use the fallacious reasoning of a logical fallacy that it prevents logical discussion on a topic. When you don't deal with the content of what I write, we cannot engage in further discussion because you have violated one of the basics of logical discussion.

Don't you understand what you did in responding to me?

Oz
 
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OzSpen

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particularly how ? unless you promote universalism, you have to state your position.

BUT even in the apostles time, the grace of God did NOT appear to ALL men in general, or every single person. unless of course the apostles can warped here and there, travel to the other side of the planet and introduce christ to the chinese empires, asians and tribes in isolated islands.

What you need to understand is that the word "all ", refers to all kinds/category of men. which in Paul's case simply mean both jews and gentiles (which means everyone else not jew) alike=> and therefore suggest that "salvation" is made available to all people.​

Why can't you deal with the content of Titus 2:11 (ESV), 'For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people'?

You can that in the apostles' time the grace of God did NOT appear to ALL people in general. So are you telling me that you don't believe Titus 2:11 (ESV)?

You state: 'What you need to understand is that the word "all ", refers to all kinds/category of men'. That's the typical Calvinistic response. I've been a Christian too long to accept that explanation without equivocation. There is not a word in Titus 2:11 to state that 'bringing salvation for all people' refers to people of all kinds/categories. That's an insertion into the text that you have invented. Do you know what that's called? Eisegesis!:scratch:
 
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