How can the grace of God be resisted by some yet received by others?

[OzSpen]

Here is a rebuttal.

https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/newbirth2.html
Important note: Some who oppose the biblical teaching on monergistic regeneration will argue that this cannot be true because no one can be regenerate and not saved. If regeneration precedes faith, they reason, then there is a time, be it ever so short, where one is regenerate but does not yet believe. But this is to misunderstand what regeneration precedes faith actually means. It does not temporally precede faith but rather causally. What do I mean? An example would be one pool ball striking another. Does one ball temporally strike the other first. No they both hit one another simultaneously ... YET the one which rolls has causal priority. The same could be said of heat and fire. Likewise when God, the Holy Spirit, through the preaching of the word, opens our heart to the gospel and gives us new eyes to see the beauty, truth and excellency of Christ, our response is immediate.

"No sooner is the soul quickened, than it at once discovers its lost estate, is horrified thereat, looks for a refuge, and believing Christ to be a suitable one, flies to him and reposes in him."
-C.H. Spurgeon

"Faith in the living God and his Son Jesus Christ is always the result of the new birth, and can never exist except in the regenerate. Whoever has faith is a saved man."
C.H. Spurgeon

SD,

The problem with your response is that it is a red herring logical fallacy. It does not deal with the content of what I wrote (and you back-quoted) at #77. Doing a copy and paste from another site does not provide a response to my post.

If that's the best you can do, we have no further point of dialogue. That's what the use of fallacious reasoning (logical fallacies) does. It prevents continuation of responsible discussion.

Oz

 

[sdowney717]

SD,

The problem with your response is that it is a red herring logical fallacy. It does not deal with the content of what I wrote (and you back-quoted) at #77. Doing a copy and paste from another site does not provide a response to my post.

If that's the best you can do, we have no further point of dialogue. That's what the use of fallacious reasoning (logical fallacies) does. It prevents continuation of responsible discussion.

Oz

Problem is, you reject the scriptures as your authority in matters of faith.
Romans 8 is clear yet you deny the scripture and God's words such as foreknew and called and predestined and elect.
And your insolently flippant, boldly arrogant and self deceiving about those truths.

Romans 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

 

[EmSw]

you can see your own dilemma yourself, but would not admit it.
first you presume man has absolute free will to (choose) between good and evil, yet many will not choose good.​

Geralt, it's a dilemma you created yourself. It's not a dilemma for me.

I sure hope you had the free will to choose good or evil before you were saved. If you couldn't choose good, I would suggest you turn yourself in to the police and admit to all the murders you couldn't help but commit.

How many little kids do you have running around? Since you couldn't freely choose to refrain from adultery, I would also go get checked for any sexual diseases.

Is there anything else you would like to admit during your life of evil before regeneration? How many things did you steal? Can you keep count? Also, you must have always cheated during school. How many fights have you been in?

Since you couldn't freely choose to love your parents, did they give you up and disown you? Were they afraid for their lives constantly because of you? Since you couldn't freely choose between good and evil, you must have one hateful, devilish, and gruesome character before you were saved.

Now the dilemma is in your court. Before you reply, you should turn yourself in to the police and tell them of all the crimes you have committed.

I will not be answering your other questions, until you serve your prison sentence and prove you are a new creation. You should write a book explaining how a total evil man can live the devil without getting caught. You would have a best seller among the unregenerate.
​

 

[Geralt]

particularly how ? unless you promote universalism, you have to state your position.

BUT even in the apostles time, the grace of God did NOT appear to ALL men in general, or every single person. unless of course the apostles can warped here and there, travel to the other side of the planet and introduce christ to the chinese empires, asians and tribes in isolated islands.

What you need to understand is that the word "all ", refers to all kinds/category of men. which in Paul's case simply mean both jews and gentiles (which means everyone else not jew) alike=> and therefore suggest that "salvation" is made available to all people.​

Geralt,

The problem with that view is that it contradicts Titus 2:11 (ESV), 'For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people'.

Oz

 

[Geralt]

the issue is not free will to choose between good and evil, your pelagian taste has ruined you to understand the simplest of arguments. so sad really.

and NO i am not a bad person as you seem to have concocted. but my understanding of God and salvation was totally distorted before i became a christian, even though i try to be a good person according to my understanding of it. but i know my motives and desires, and it was NOT giving glory to the God in scripture, much less a correct view of who He is.

now for the likes of you, perhaps that is ok and would probably gain you eternal life. but the sad truth is, the standard of God is not your effort of trying to be good or choosing good or God, based on your understanding of what is good or evil, but only perfect righteousness.

and that is the bottomline of this argument isnt it ? not about freewill and choice which you seem to circle like a moth, but an understanding of who God is. and in your case you have a santa clause god, who stands aside checking you twice whether you have been naught or nice. and rewards you according to your effort of tolerated imperfection. in others a pagan view of god.​

Geralt, it's a dilemma you created yourself. It's not a dilemma for me.

I sure hope you had the free will to choose good or evil before you were saved. If you couldn't choose good, I would suggest you turn yourself in to the police and admit to all the murders you couldn't help but commit.

How many little kids do you have running around? Since you couldn't freely choose to refrain from adultery, I would also go get checked for any sexual diseases.

Is there anything else you would like to admit during your life of evil before regeneration? How many things did you steal? Can you keep count? Also, you must have always cheated during school. How many fights have you been in?

Since you couldn't freely choose to love your parents, did they give you up and disown you? Were they afraid for their lives constantly because of you? Since you couldn't freely choose between good and evil, you must have one hateful, devilish, and gruesome character before you were saved.

Now the dilemma is in your court. Before you reply, you should turn yourself in to the police and tell them of all the crimes you have committed.

I will not be answering your other questions, until you serve your prison sentence and prove you are a new creation. You should write a book explaining how a total evil man can live the devil without getting caught. You would have a best seller among the unregenerate.
​

 

[bottomofsandal]

Let us summarize for the readers.

Here is your sequence:

Man is free to choose between good and evil, he understands what is good and what is evil => If he decide to choose God, God reacts. => He is born again, becomes a christian.​

Here is mine:

Man is free to choose, but given his sinful desires and fallen nature, his choices are limited. He lacks understanding (which makes the issue not will but of ability), he cannot choose what he does not understand (which is obvious). More so he cannot choose God, because it is not his desire to do so. It is not tasteful nor desirable => now God acts by His own initiative and creates a new heart => He is born of the spirit, exhibits a desire for God and faith in Him, his option of choices becomes bigger given his new understanding, and yet He desires to follow and obey God more simply because his new nature desires to do so.​

Is #1 related to foreseen faith?
Then salvation is not God's choice, but rather God is responding to man's choice.
Even in foreseen faith we are not really told how man comes to choose by His own ability.

 

[Geralt]

try to read Romans 9, if you can swallow it without disdain i will have to salute you. try to see if your god version really decides based on foreseen faith or works.

Is #1 related to foreseen faith?
Then salvation is not God's choice, but rather God is responding to man's choice.
Even in foreseen faith we are not really told how man comes to choose by His own ability.

 

[bottomofsandal]

try to read Romans 9, if you can swallow it without disdain i will have to salute you. try to see if your god version really decides based on foreseen faith or works.

HUH? I don't believe in foreseen faith.
I was responding and offering possible explanations to the paradigm you proposed...

 

[Geralt]

im not sure you really understand what i have written as you seem to go in circles asking the same question, "we are not really told how man comes to choose by His own ability?" a blind can only see darkness, anyway which way he asks.

HUH? I don't believe in foreseen faith.
I was responding and offering possible explanations to the paradigm you proposed...

 

[bottomofsandal]

im not sure you really understand what i have written as you seem to go in circles asking the same question, "we are not really told how man comes to choose by His own ability?" a blind can only see darkness, anyway which way he asks.

I keep asking the same questions because those who believe dead men choose will not answer.

 

[EmSw]

I keep asking the same questions because those who believe dead men choose will not answer.

Christians are supposed to be dead to sin. How is it they can choose to sin?

 

[EmSw]

the issue is not free will to choose between good and evil, your pelagian taste has ruined you to understand the simplest of arguments. so sad really.​

Why is it not about free will to choose between good and evil? Here was the first words out of your mouth -

"you can see your own dilemma yourself, but would not admit it.
first you presume man has absolute free will to (choose) between good and evil, yet many will not choose good."

Are you moving the goal posts now?

and NO i am not a bad person as you seem to have concocted. but my understanding of God and salvation was totally distorted before i became a christian, even though i try to be a good person according to my understanding of it. but i know my motives and desires, and it was NOT giving glory to the God in scripture, much less a correct view of who He is.

That's great. So you could freely choose to do good over evil while unsaved. Why didn't you say that in the first place?

now for the likes of you, perhaps that is ok and would probably gain you eternal life. but the sad truth is, the standard of God is not your effort of trying to be good or choosing good or God, based on your understanding of what is good or evil, but only perfect righteousness.

Perhaps you can give us scripture to prove the standard of God is choosing evil. Perhaps you think heaven is for those practicing evil. Perhaps you think God will do His best and give blessings to the evil man. I'm sorry friend, you are going to have to provide scripture for that. Get a good concordance and start searching.

and that is the bottomline of this argument isnt it ? not about freewill and choice which you seem to circle like a moth, but an understanding of who God is. and in your case you have a santa clause god, who stands aside checking you twice whether you have been naught or nice. and rewards you according to your effort of tolerated imperfection. in others a pagan view of god.

I'm afraid it is about free will and choosing between good and evil. If you think God wants and desires for us to freely choose evil, your understanding of God is flawed. Perhaps you should do a study on God's judgment and tell us why He judges a man. Let me give you your first hint - it's about a man's works, whether they are good or evil.

 

[Job8]

Even in foreseen faith we are not really told how man comes to choose by His own ability.

The Bible is very clear as to how sinners respond to the Gospel. Firstly it is the power of God unto salvation and second it is accompanied by the Holy Spirit (Hebrews 3:7-12).

7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:...

12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

 

[Job8]

I keep asking the same questions because those who believe dead men choose will not answer.

Dead men are neither brain dead nor physically dead. It is their spirits which are dead, not their souls. Therefore so-called dead men can respond to the Gospel.

 

[bottomofsandal]

Dead men are neither brain dead nor physically dead. It is their spirits which are dead, not their souls. Therefore so-called dead men can respond to the Gospel.

No one is disputing carnal men can make beneficial earthly decisions.
However, do they possess the ability to make an eternal spiritual decision?
Not according to Ephesians 2:1.......dead in trespasses and sins means they must be quickened

 

[bottomofsandal]

The Bible is very clear as to how sinners respond to the Gospel. Firstly it is the power of God unto salvation and second it is accompanied by the Holy Spirit (Hebrews 3:7-12).

7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:...

12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Foreseen faith is when God looks into the future to see which men will choose Him-
God then chooses the man who chose God after the man has already chosen God.
This makes man independently operative in his salvation, without the grace of God.

 

[Job8]

Foreseen faith is when God looks into the future to see which men will choose Him-
God then chooses the man who chose God after the man has already chosen God.
This makes man independently operative in his salvation, without the grace of God.

Divine election is for sanctification and perfection, not for justification and salvation. That's why you are confused.

 

[Job8]

No one is disputing carnal men can make beneficial earthly decisions.
However, do they possess the ability to make an eternal spiritual decision?
Not according to Ephesians 2:1.......dead in trespasses and sins means they must be quickened

And that is why God has given a quickening Gospel and a quickening Holy Spirit. The Gospel - the Word of God -- is the seed of the New Birth. Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God (Rom 10:17).

 

[bottomofsandal]

And that is why God has given a quickening Gospel and a quickening Holy Spirit. The Gospel - the Word of God -- is the seed of the New Birth. Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God (Rom 10:17).

Some here believe they are self-quickening.
... And God's grace is not 100% effective.
They must add to it to get the grace to work properly.

Either God's grace saves or it doesn't-
Since it does...Praise God!
If it doesn't, then it is not grace.

God didn't say we are saved when we complete the salvation recipe with our secret ingredient.

 

[bottomofsandal]

Divine election is for sanctification and perfection, not for justification and salvation.

How about some pertinent Bible verses please ?