How can the grace of God be resisted by some yet received by others?

[Job8]

OTOH, what prevents some men from receiving God's grace?

Please study this passage carefully since the answer is right here (John 3:14-21)

ALL CAN BE SAVED
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

ALL MAY BE SAVED
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

WHOSOEVER MEANS ANYONE AND EVERYONE
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

THE WHOLE WORLD MAY BE SAVED
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE WILL NOT BE SAVED
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

THERE ARE MANY WHO LOVE DARKNESS
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

THOSE WHO LOVE DARKNESS WILL NOT BE SAVED
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

THOSE WHO COME TO THE LIGHT ARE SAVED
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

 

[bottomofsandal]

You really need to consider who (and how) God chooses. calvinists read their own interpretations into such verses. Perhaps God chooses those who choose to call on Him, and He allows such to approach Him? Such verses as these do not prove calvinism, they are simply verses that calvinism can easily misconstrue, while ignoring a great many others.

Have you really been reading, are you just blind? We have been around the block enough; you know where I stand. God calls to all, but men must choose to respond. Don't twist my words.

I was confused by your previous comment in red.
We both agree man must choose.
You and I both chose Christ.

 

[DingDing]

I was confused by your previous comment in red.
We both agree man must choose.
You and I both chose Christ.

Yes, I agree that we both choose Christ, but where we might disagree is the calling. calvinists believe in a 'hidden' call which can not be resisted. I, and most arminians, believe in an open call which can be resisted. The human choice, from the arminian perspective, comes in to play when man must choose to respond or reject the call. For example, if your phone rings, you have the choice to answer or not - that is how arminians see it. One can refuse to accept the call.

 

[bottomofsandal]

Yes, I agree that we both choose Christ, but where we might disagree is the calling. calvinists believe in a 'hidden' call which can not be resisted. I, and most arminians, believe in an open call which can be resisted. The human choice, from the arminian perspective, comes in to play when man must choose to respond or reject the call. For example, if your phone rings, you have the choice to answer or not - that is how arminians see it. One can refuse to accept the call.

The effectual call is how the Calvinist describes it I believe.

Sure, there is a universal call, offer, invitation...
But, what makes a chooser of Christ a chooser?

God doesn't choose or believe for us, we must believe.
Why can't God influence man to choose a certain way without violating man's freewill?
My wife does it to me all the time when I choose what she wants me to choose...LOL

 

[OzSpen]

Yep, I know what calvinists believe, but they need to consider that they are totally wrong, and that human choice is the deciding factor.

However, we need more than this kind of assertion. We need biblical evidence to demonstrate that some kind of human responsibility is needed in responding to the offer of salvation.

Which biblical evidence would you provide to confirm 'human choice'?

Oz

 

[DingDing]

The effectual call is how the Calvinist describes it I believe.

Sure, there is a universal call, offer, invitation...
But, what makes a chooser of Christ a chooser?

God doesn't choose or believe for us, we must believe.
Why can't God influence man to choose a certain way without violating man's freewill?
My wife does it to me all the time when I choose what she wants me to choose...LOL

I think we agree to a point, God (and our wives) influence our decisions; but they don't control our decisions. So when God calls, He is trying to get us to respond as He would like. (Take the first few chapters of Proverbs, for example.) Anyway, although God calls and wants us to respond a certain way, it is we as individuals who ultimately have the final individual say. That is why some individuals respond one way while others respond differently. And I know that bugs the crap out of calvinists, but some people just make the right choice while others do not. This is their choice. God gave them the power to choose, and He lets them use it. As Jesus says, some are worthy and others are not. Do a study on the word, worthy.

What calvinists want is a nice, well-defined equation which explains all things; they want determinism. But, if God has given men free moral volition, then there is not going to be a nice, well-defined equation which explains all things. The best we will be able to do is say this person chose this way while that person chose that way. And we should not attempt to put the cause on God, but rather we should simply acknowledge that given the ability to choose, some will choose one way and others the other. So at the judgement no person will be able to cry 'foul'. We each made our own choice.

 

[DingDing]

However, we need more than this kind of assertion. We need biblical evidence to demonstrate that some kind of human responsibility is needed in responding to the offer of salvation.

Which biblical evidence would you provide to confirm 'human choice'?

Oz

That would take some time. How long do you have? Let me know if you really want me to start down this path, and if you are willing to think about it.

 

[OzSpen]

You must be born again first to enter the kingdom of God second.
You must be born again from above to see the kingdom of God, to see means to know and experience and understand Jesus as the Christ of God the Messiah.
Christ tells us 'see' and 'enter' and these words mean different things.
And this Christ describes as the wind blowing wherever that wind willith to go.
So then being born again is according to His choice, not the will of man.
All those so born of God from above will confess Christ as Lord and enter into His kingdom.

SD,

John 3:3 (ESV) states, 'Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again [or, from above] he cannot see the kingdom of God"'. There is nothing in this statement that indicates being born again precedes faith/salvation.

It's a common Calvinistic teaching to make this verse mean that regeneration precedes faith. However, the Scriptures do not demonstrate this is so:

Charles Spurgeon, a Calvinist, knew the folly of that kind of thinking that states that regeneration is logically prior to faith. He preached that it is absurd to say that a sinner is regenerate logically before he/she believes. Spurgeon stated:

If I am to preach faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate. But you will tell me that I ought to preach it only to those who repent of their sins. Very well; but since true repentance of sin is the work of the Spirit, any man who has repentance is most certainly saved, because evangelical repentance never can exist in an unrenewed soul. Where there is repentance there is faith already, for they never can be separated. So, then, I am only to preach faith to those who have it. Absurd, indeed! Is not this waiting till the man is cured and then bringing him the medicine? This is preaching Christ to the righteous and not to sinners (Sermon, The Warrant of Faith).

Norman Geisler, who calls himself, a moderate Calvinist (Geisler 1999:129), stated that

Contrary to the claims of extreme Calvinists, there are no verses properly understood that teach regeneration is prior to faith. Instead, it is the uniform pattern of Scripture to place faith logically prior to salvation as a condition for receiving it (Geisler 1999:228).​

To support his position, Geisler examines Romans 5:1; Luke 13:3; 2 Peter 3:9; John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Romans 3:24-25; John 3:6-7; and Titus 3:5-7 (Geisler 1999:228-230), to demonstrate that faith is prior to regeneration.

See, Does regeneration precede faith?

Oz

References
Gear, S 2014. Does regeneration precede faith? Truth Challenge (online), Available at: https://spencer.gear.dyndns.org/2012/08/05/does-regeneration-precede-faith/ (Accessed 5 September 2016).

Geisler, N 1999. Chosen but free. Minneapolis, Minnesota: Bethany House Publishers.

 

[OzSpen]

That would take some time. How long do you have? Let me know if you really want me to start down this path, and if you are willing to think about it.

It's important to provide evidence rather than make assertions. I'm not asking for 50 verses. What say you start with 3 verses that show that human responses are needed to receive salvation.

I think at #68 I've provided some of those verses: Luke 13:3; John 3:16; Acts 16:31.

Also see John 3:18 for further evidence.

It's not too difficult to find some verses to support human responsibility in salvation. But we must never overlook the fact that it is God who saves as Titus 3:5-7 (ESV) makes clear:

He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Saviour, 7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.​

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Hmmm...so who invented "choosing Christ" we hear at invitations, revivals, and certain cable TV channels?

Paul and Silas did, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit: 'And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household"' (Acts 16:31). Believe = You believe. That's what the Greek states by using pisteuson (second person singular aorist active imperative), i.e. you, Philippian jailer, believe.

This is a similar message to that given by Paul to Cornelius in Acts 10:43.

John 1:12 (ESV) provides further evidence of receiving/choosing Christ, 'But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God'.

Oz

 

[DingDing]

It's important to provide evidence rather than make assertions. I'm not asking for 50 verses. What say you start with 3 verses that show that human responses are needed to receive salvation.

I think at #68 I've provides some of those verses: Luke 13:3; John 3:16; Acts 16:31.

Also see John 3:18 for further evidence.

It's not too difficult to find some verses to support human responsibility in salvation. But we must never overlook the fact that it is God who saves as Titus 3:5-7 (ESV) makes clear:

He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Saviour, 7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.​

Oz

I would like starting from the Old Testament. The particular passages I have in mind are those leading up to the Parable of the Vineyard in Is. 5. If we can make the case that salvation in the Old Testament involved man's moral volition, then the case for the New Testament becomes easier. (For salvation has always been by faith, hasn't it?)

 

[DingDing]

It's important to provide evidence rather than make assertions. I'm not asking for 50 verses. What say you start with 3 verses that show that human responses are needed to receive salvation.
...

Sorry, but Thomas Jefferson got a hold of my bible. I'm not sure there are 50 verses left intact!

 

[Geralt]

is quite obvious that God intersects the hearts and minds of men.
this is not like God offering you a biscuit, and here you are thinking if you'll snatch the biscuit or not.

the answer to your question is simple, God changes the "hearts of men". while that may sound cryptic or mystical, to get the point it simply means GOD GIVES THEM DESIRE.

and that is the answer to your question, why people choose or believe what they choose or believe-> simply because they desire it. (like you go to a grocery store you will always choose among many brands only the one thing you desire the most.)

and when God gives you a new heart/desire to love him, you don't think about deciding to snatch the biscuit or not, you just snatch it willingly because you desire it.

that is why "grace is irresistible", because choice or choosing does not start and end in the (free) will of man (like the arminians and semi-pelagians would always insist it), but in the hearts and desires of men and women. and our greatest desire always (one way or another) drives the will to choose.

this is what happens in regeneration, God gives a new heart with a desire to love and worship him. and we ALL COME willingly, it is in our new nature.​

The effectual call is how the Calvinist describes it I believe.

Sure, there is a universal call, offer, invitation...
But, what makes a chooser of Christ a chooser?

God doesn't choose or believe for us, we must believe.
Why can't God influence man to choose a certain way without violating man's freewill?
My wife does it to me all the time when I choose what she wants me to choose...LOL

 

[EmSw]

is quite obvious that God intersects the hearts and minds of men.
this is not like God offering you a biscuit, and here you are thinking if you'll snatch the biscuit or not.

the answer to your question is simple, God changes the "hearts of men". while that may sound cryptic or mystical, to get the point it simply means GOD GIVES THEM DESIRE.

and that is the answer to your question, why people choose or believe what they choose or believe-> simply because they desire it. (like you go to a grocery store you will always choose among many brands only the one thing you desire the most.)

and when God gives you a new heart/desire to love him, you don't think about deciding to snatch the biscuit or not, you just snatch it willingly because you desire it.

that is why "grace is irresistible", because choice or choosing does not start and end in the (free) will of man (like the arminians and semi-pelagians would always insist it), but in the hearts and desires of men and women. and our greatest desire always (one way or another) drives the will to choose.

this is what happens in regeneration, God gives a new heart with a desire to love and worship him. and we ALL COME willingly, it is in our new nature.​

Here again, we see the Word of God being trampled underfoot. God tells us exactly how to get a new heart, but man doesn't like what God says, so he makes up his own story to satisfy his desires.

Ezekiel 18:31
Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

If man doesn't rid his heart of all transgressions, then he will never make himself a new heart and new spirit. Man desperately wants to ignore God's word and insert his own truth. I've seen it time and time again. I can only imagine what man will say to prove Ezekiel 18:31 isn't the truth.

 

[Geralt]

telling US? you must have lived millennias. of course not. God is telling the nation of Israel according to their covenant with Him, and they would not. for that is not their hearts desire.

Man is not desperate to ignore God's word, you are putting too much drama on it. they will not simply because it is not their desire. they have no taste for it for they lack understanding.

you can jump around scripture quoting parts to support the assumption that man is uncorrupted and free to choose between good and evil, but bottomline is it nullifies the reason why Christ came. and so you end up with no gospel at all.​

Here again, we see the Word of God being trampled underfoot. God tells us exactly how to get a new heart, but man doesn't like what God says, so he makes up his own story to satisfy his desires.

Ezekiel 18:31
Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

If man doesn't rid his heart of all transgressions, then he will never make himself a new heart and new spirit. Man desperately wants to ignore God's word and insert his own truth. I've seen it time and time again. I can only imagine what man will say to prove Ezekiel 18:31 isn't the truth.

 

[EmSw]

telling US? you must have lived millennias. of course not. God is telling the nation of Israel according to their covenant with Him, and they would not. for that is not their hearts desire.

Man is not desperate to ignore God's word, you are putting too much drama on it. they will not simply because it is not their desire. they have no taste for it for they lack understanding.

you can jump around scripture quoting parts to support the assumption that man is uncorrupted and free to choose between good and evil, but bottomline is it nullifies the reason why Christ came. and so you end up with no gospel at all.​

This verse is not speaking of the old covenant. It's talking about sin, which affects every man who has ever lived.

Apparently, God's word is not some men's desire today either. They has rather explain it away with their own understanding. God's word is forever; it is not temporary.

No one said man is uncorrupted. Where did you hear that?

Ezekiel 18:31 shows man has absolute free will between good and evil. Many today will not choose good, that is, cast away all their iniquities, not even those who claim to love God.

Listen to what Jesus asked Nicodemus.

John 3:10
Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?

Jesus expected Nicodemus to know about being born again, being a teacher of Israel. Just where would being born again be in the Old Testament for Nicodemus to know? Any guesses?

I will let you think about and search for the answer. If anyone else would like to guess, they are more than welcome.

 

[sdowney717]

SD,

John 3:3 (ESV) states, 'Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again [or, from above] he cannot see the kingdom of God"'. There is nothing in this statement that indicates being born again precedes faith/salvation.

It's a common Calvinistic teaching to make this verse mean that regeneration precedes faith. However, the Scriptures do not demonstrate this is so:

Charles Spurgeon, a Calvinist, knew the folly of that kind of thinking that states that regeneration is logically prior to faith. He preached that it is absurd to say that a sinner is regenerate logically before he/she believes. Spurgeon stated:


Norman Geisler, who calls himself, a moderate Calvinist (Geisler 1999:129), stated that

Contrary to the claims of extreme Calvinists, there are no verses properly understood that teach regeneration is prior to faith. Instead, it is the uniform pattern of Scripture to place faith logically prior to salvation as a condition for receiving it (Geisler 1999:228).​

To support his position, Geisler examines Romans 5:1; Luke 13:3; 2 Peter 3:9; John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Romans 3:24-25; John 3:6-7; and Titus 3:5-7 (Geisler 1999:228-230), to demonstrate that faith is prior to regeneration.

See, Does regeneration precede faith?

Oz

References
Gear, S 2014. Does regeneration precede faith? Truth Challenge (online), Available at: https://spencer.gear.dyndns.org/2012/08/05/does-regeneration-precede-faith/ (Accessed 5 September 2016).

Geisler, N 1999. Chosen but free. Minneapolis, Minnesota: Bethany House Publishers.

Here is a rebuttal.

https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/newbirth2.html
Important note: Some who oppose the biblical teaching on monergistic regeneration will argue that this cannot be true because no one can be regenerate and not saved. If regeneration precedes faith, they reason, then there is a time, be it ever so short, where one is regenerate but does not yet believe. But this is to misunderstand what regeneration precedes faith actually means. It does not temporally precede faith but rather causally. What do I mean? An example would be one pool ball striking another. Does one ball temporally strike the other first. No they both hit one another simultaneously ... YET the one which rolls has causal priority. The same could be said of heat and fire. Likewise when God, the Holy Spirit, through the preaching of the word, opens our heart to the gospel and gives us new eyes to see the beauty, truth and excellency of Christ, our response is immediate.

"No sooner is the soul quickened, than it at once discovers its lost estate, is horrified thereat, looks for a refuge, and believing Christ to be a suitable one, flies to him and reposes in him."
-C.H. Spurgeon

"Faith in the living God and his Son Jesus Christ is always the result of the new birth, and can never exist except in the regenerate. Whoever has faith is a saved man."
C.H. Spurgeon

 

[EmSw]

Here is a rebuttal.

https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/newbirth2.html
Important note: Some who oppose the biblical teaching on monergistic regeneration will argue that this cannot be true because no one can be regenerate and not saved. If regeneration precedes faith, they reason, then there is a time, be it ever so short, where one is regenerate but does not yet believe. But this is to misunderstand what regeneration precedes faith actually means. It does not temporally precede faith but rather causally. What do I mean? An example would be one pool ball striking another. Does one ball temporally strike the other first. No they both hit one another simultaneously ... YET the one which rolls has causal priority. The same could be said of heat and fire. Likewise when God, the Holy Spirit, through the preaching of the word, opens our heart to the gospel and gives us new eyes to see the beauty, truth and excellency of Christ, our response is immediate.

"No sooner is the soul quickened, than it at once discovers its lost estate, is horrified thereat, looks for a refuge, and believing Christ to be a suitable one, flies to him and reposes in him."
-C.H. Spurgeon

"Faith in the living God and his Son Jesus Christ is always the result of the new birth, and can never exist except in the regenerate. Whoever has faith is a saved man."
C.H. Spurgeon

What about those who get this 'immediate' quickening and later deny, reject, and leave Christ? Was this 'immediate' quickening a fraud? Was it something the man didn't do to make it genuine?

 

[Geralt]

you can see your own dilemma yourself, but would not admit it.
first you presume man has absolute free will to (choose) between good and evil, yet many will not choose good.

why is it? i mean you asked this question yourself, yet you have not answered it. i gave you an answer, yet you skipped it.

lets make a fictional scenario:

lets say you are exhibit one, and you choose God. wow congratulations!
but your parents did not. now they should be the more wiser since they are older.
so what is it ? are they so stupid not to choose forgiveness, freedom from guilt and eternal bliss over eternal damnation? its like choosing to be a lotto winner than to be a loser which is obvious. its right there for the taking, and they would not.
or maybe you know more and they do not ? you have the superior understanding, and they do not ? or maybe they lack education ?

in all these reasons, it always points to the fact that you are better than them. now that is your predicament, isnt it ?
​

Nicodemus should have know these things, you are correct. Why? because it is written all over the OT (Eze 11:19,36:26.. since you like Ezekiel). That GOD is the one who creates a new heart and spirit. But his problem is not knowing but understanding, like yourself. Nicodemus thought he can make himself born again, that it is a matter of man's will or action. And so the dumbest question in the NT is posted by Nic to Jesus.. which is btw repeated in many forms here in this forum:

John 3:4 Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" ; or in your case, can man make himself born again by his own free will, maybe he can respond first to the altar call or what ?

Christ answered:

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."John 3:6-8

or in your case, man is NOT simply able. there is no continuity. born of the flesh is flesh, born of the spirit is spirit. it is entirely a NEW creation. and it is entirely the work of the Spirit. He works like the wind, uncontrolled, unexpected, totally free. in other words the Spirit acts whomever he wishes to be born of spirit, a totally uninfluenced sovereign act.
​

Now that is what Nicodemus did not understand, with his Jewish background of works salvation and assuming you can by your own free will choose what is right and wrong (and therefore can possibly initiate your own born-again experience) he totally displayed his lack of understanding. Like yourself he needs to be born again.

To be born of the Spirit is totally God's will and initiative, not man.
It is not induced, nor reactive. It is totally the Spirit's own initiative.

Let us summarize for the readers.

Here is your sequence:

Man is free to choose between good and evil, he understands what is good and what is evil => If he decide to choose God, God reacts. => He is born again, becomes a christian.​

Here is mine:

Man is free to choose, but given his sinful desires and fallen nature, his choices are limited. He lacks understanding (which makes the issue not will but of ability), he cannot choose what he does not understand (which is obvious). More so he cannot choose God, because it is not his desire to do so. It is not tasteful nor desirable => now God acts by His own initiative and creates a new heart => He is born of the spirit, exhibits a desire for God and faith in Him, his option of choices becomes bigger given his new understanding, and yet He desires to follow and obey God more simply because his new nature desires to do so.​

This verse is not speaking of the old covenant. It's talking about sin, which affects every man who has ever lived.

Apparently, God's word is not some men's desire today either. They has rather explain it away with their own understanding. God's word is forever; it is not temporary.

No one said man is uncorrupted. Where did you hear that?

Ezekiel 18:31 shows man has absolute free will between good and evil. Many today will not choose good, that is, cast away all their iniquities, not even those who claim to love God.

Listen to what Jesus asked Nicodemus.

John 3:10
Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?

Jesus expected Nicodemus to know about being born again, being a teacher of Israel. Just where would being born again be in the Old Testament for Nicodemus to know? Any guesses?

I will let you think about and search for the answer. If anyone else would like to guess, they are more than welcome.

 

[OzSpen]

is quite obvious that God intersects the hearts and minds of men.
this is not like God offering you a biscuit, and here you are thinking if you'll snatch the biscuit or not.

the answer to your question is simple, God changes the "hearts of men". while that may sound cryptic or mystical, to get the point it simply means GOD GIVES THEM DESIRE.​

Geralt,

The problem with that view is that it contradicts Titus 2:11 (ESV), 'For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people'.

Oz