Religion and Gender

[Jane_the_Bane]

As most religions that are practiced today were created in the Agrarian age, they tend to reflect the dominant gender roles and relationship models associated with that particular era in global history:
A patriarchal family, with husbands and fathers in a position of uncontested authority, and women in a subservient role that is more or less confined to the role of motherhood and housework.
The need to repress and control female sexuality in particular was also strongly embedded in most societies (and hence, in the religions that arose in the same), as inheritance lines, limited means of birth control and the absence of paternity tests meant that there was virtually no other way to ensure that a man was raising his own children within this arrangement.

Even seemingly egalitarian world views such as Buddhism cannot quite shake their historical and cultural context.
And younger religions such as Wicca (which are often even seen as feminist) communicate very stereotypical and traditional gender conceptions in their concept of the Mother and the Horned God.

There were some exceptions to this rule - such as *very* early Christianity and its radical egalitarianism, which started to fade as soon as female emancipation became associated with Gnosticism.

And - here's where this discussion starts - even these traditional religions have sometimes tried to outgrow their cultural baggage, particularly within the last two hundred years.
So - how does your particular religion or denomination address the topic of gender? Are women still expected to be housewives and mothers, first and foremost? Can they serve in clerical roles? Are men treated as superior (whether openly or through the traditional "equal but different"-rationalization), or do partners genuinely enjoy equality?

 

[dysert]

A "traditional religion" in my mind is one that follows the Bible. As such, it's clear that men & women are equal but typically assume different roles. This was established in the Creation order. Simply put, the man is typically responsible for earning the bread, and the woman is typically responsible for managing the bread. At home, ideally both partners submit to each other, but if there's a tie that cannot be resolved, someone has to make the hard decision. This typically falls to the man.

 

[Armoured]

A "traditional religion" in my mind is one that follows the Bible.

Word redefining FTW!

 

[Hieronymus]

Men can never be mothers.
The job of a mother is of the utmost importance and in no way a lower position.

 

[Armoured]

Men can never be mothers.
The job of a mother is of the utmost importance and in no way a lower position.

It's people who don't want to let women be anything BUT mothers that are the problem.

 

[Robban]

A "traditional religion" in my mind is one that follows the Bible. As such, it's clear that men & women are equal but typically assume different roles. This was established in the Creation order. Simply put, the man is typically responsible for earning the bread, and the woman is typically responsible for managing the bread. At home, ideally both partners submit to each other, but if there's a tie that cannot be resolved, someone has to make the hard decision. This typically falls to the man.

But it does not work though, does it?

Women, mothers bear the heaviest burden,

 

[Hieronymus]

It's people who don't want to let women be anything BUT mothers that are the problem.

Let's get this straight though.
Seeing as monogamous mammals have to have more than 2 children on average to maintain the population , Women on average have more than 2 children to bring forth and bring up.
This is the most important thing in their lives, their bodies are made for this, only women can do this.
That is, in the ideal situation of a married couple having kids and live together as a family.

The idea that this is a low position in life is nonsensical.

 

[Armoured]

Let's get this straight though.
Seeing as monogamous mammals have to have more than 2 children on average to maintain the population , Women on average have more than 2 children to bring forth and bring up.
This is the most important thing in their lives, their bodies are made for this, only women can do this.
That is, in the ideal situation of a married couple having kids and live together as a family.

That's 18+ months out of an average 78 year lifespan. Not seeing much argument there.

Also, there are roughly 7 billion humans on the planet at this moment. I think we can probably ease back on the "populate or perish!" rhetoric, don't you?

 

[Hieronymus]

That's 18+ months out of an average 78 year lifespan. Not seeing much argument there.

When does a mother finish being a mother?

Also, there are roughly 7 billion humans on the planet at this moment. I think we can probably ease back on the "populate or perish!" rhetoric, don't you?

It's not rhetoric, it's what people do.
Women have more than 2 children on average.
It's biology.

 

[juvenissun]

As most religions that are practiced today were created in the Agrarian age, they tend to reflect the dominant gender roles and relationship models associated with that particular era in global history:
A patriarchal family, with husbands and fathers in a position of uncontested authority, and women in a subservient role that is more or less confined to the role of motherhood and housework.
The need to repress and control female sexuality in particular was also strongly embedded in most societies (and hence, in the religions that arose in the same), as inheritance lines, limited means of birth control and the absence of paternity tests meant that there was virtually no other way to ensure that a man was raising his own children within this arrangement.

Even seemingly egalitarian world views such as Buddhism cannot quite shake their historical and cultural context.
And younger religions such as Wicca (which are often even seen as feminist) communicate very stereotypical and traditional gender conceptions in their concept of the Mother and the Horned God.

There were some exceptions to this rule - such as *very* early Christianity and its radical egalitarianism, which started to fade as soon as female emancipation became associated with Gnosticism.

And - here's where this discussion starts - even these traditional religions have sometimes tried to outgrow their cultural baggage, particularly within the last two hundred years.
So - how does your particular religion or denomination address the topic of gender? Are women still expected to be housewives and mothers, first and foremost? Can they serve in clerical roles? Are men treated as superior (whether openly or through the traditional "equal but different"-rationalization), or do partners genuinely enjoy equality?

In Christianity, a woman is an "important assistant", or the most important assistant, to her husband.
What a woman would do, depends on what the husband do or don't do.

 

[Robban]

There are examples where men cannot think further than their own nose,

Actually more often than perhaps we are willing to admit.

An aside, came to think of it,
The only time Adolf Hitler cried, was at his mothers grave,
not so strange considering the sort of father he had.

 

[Tull]

As most religions that are practiced today were created in the Agrarian age, they tend to reflect the dominant gender roles and relationship models associated with that particular era in global history:
A patriarchal family, with husbands and fathers in a position of uncontested authority, and women in a subservient role that is more or less confined to the role of motherhood and housework.
The need to repress and control female sexuality in particular was also strongly embedded in most societies (and hence, in the religions that arose in the same), as inheritance lines, limited means of birth control and the absence of paternity tests meant that there was virtually no other way to ensure that a man was raising his own children within this arrangement.

Even seemingly egalitarian world views such as Buddhism cannot quite shake their historical and cultural context.
And younger religions such as Wicca (which are often even seen as feminist) communicate very stereotypical and traditional gender conceptions in their concept of the Mother and the Horned God.

There were some exceptions to this rule - such as *very* early Christianity and its radical egalitarianism, which started to fade as soon as female emancipation became associated with Gnosticism.

And - here's where this discussion starts - even these traditional religions have sometimes tried to outgrow their cultural baggage, particularly within the last two hundred years.
So - how does your particular religion or denomination address the topic of gender? Are women still expected to be housewives and mothers, first and foremost? Can they serve in clerical roles? Are men treated as superior (whether openly or through the traditional "equal but different"-rationalization), or do partners genuinely enjoy equality?

Equal but different is not a rationalization,the left leg is as important as the right hand but they certainly do different things "equality" has come to mean receiving the same rewards for different reponsabilities...men have traditionally been expected to do certain things for which they receive certain rewards or priviledges,things such a military service and dying in wars,women have also died but far less and rarely because they were drafted or placed in combat,equality in this case would be a draft for women or at least being required to sign up with selective service,both of which are predictably unpopular....a society often gives the most to who it expects the most from.

 

[ViaCrucis]

The current presiding bishop of the ELCA is the Rev. Elizabeth Eaton.

That should pretty much say it all in terms of whether women can serve as clergy in my denomination.

I think it is also safe to say that the ELCA's stance on "gender roles" would be the egalitarian approach, regarding complimentarianism and other male-dominated expressions as innately sinful and contrary to a thorough biblical teaching and, ultimately, not in line with Lutheran confessional thought in regard to Christian involvement in the world.

"Our starting point is the foundational Lutheran understanding that we read and
understand the Bible in light of the incarnation, death, and resurrection of
Jesus Christ. This “good news” of the Gospel that we are freed from captivity
to sin (justification by grace through faith on account of Christ) allows us to
respond to God’s mercy through love for and service to the neighbor
(our vocation in the world).

As Lutherans, understanding that God’s promised future is the transforma-
tion of the whole creation, we believe that the Triune God, Father, Son and
Holy Spirit, is engaged deeply and relationally in the continuing creation
of the world. We anticipate and live out the values of this promised future
concretely in the present. It is therefore in the midst of daily life in the
world that we are given the vocational task of serving the neighbor.
Central to our vocation, in relation to human sexuality, is the building and
protection of trust in relationships. As justified and forgiven sinners, our
efforts to create trust are in response to God’s faithful (trustworthy) rela-
tionship of love for the world in Christ. We are called therefore to be trust-
worthy in our human sexuality and to build social institutions and practices
where trust and trustworthy relationships can thrive." - A Social Statement on Human Sexuality: Gift and Trust, 2009

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Taom Ben Robert]

The current presiding bishop of the ELCA is the Rev. Elizabeth Eaton.

That should pretty much say it all in terms of whether women can serve as clergy in my denomination.

I think it is also safe to say that the ELCA's stance on "gender roles" would be the egalitarian approach, regarding complimentarianism and other male-dominated expressions as innately sinful and contrary to a thorough biblical teaching and, ultimately, not in line with Lutheran confessional thought in regard to Christian involvement in the world.

"Our starting point is the foundational Lutheran understanding that we read and
understand the Bible in light of the incarnation, death, and resurrection of
Jesus Christ. This “good news” of the Gospel that we are freed from captivity
to sin (justification by grace through faith on account of Christ) allows us to
respond to God’s mercy through love for and service to the neighbor
(our vocation in the world).

As Lutherans, understanding that God’s promised future is the transforma-
tion of the whole creation, we believe that the Triune God, Father, Son and
Holy Spirit, is engaged deeply and relationally in the continuing creation
of the world. We anticipate and live out the values of this promised future
concretely in the present. It is therefore in the midst of daily life in the
world that we are given the vocational task of serving the neighbor.
Central to our vocation, in relation to human sexuality, is the building and
protection of trust in relationships. As justified and forgiven sinners, our
efforts to create trust are in response to God’s faithful (trustworthy) rela-
tionship of love for the world in Christ. We are called therefore to be trust-
worthy in our human sexuality and to build social institutions and practices
where trust and trustworthy relationships can thrive." - A Social Statement on Human Sexuality: Gift and Trust, 2009

-CryptoLutheran

This right here

 

[Albion]

This thread really is not about Christianity and World Religions but, on the contrary, is a critical evaluation of Christianity from a purely secular POV.

There's probably another forum to which it ought to be moved, but I'm not the one who would know for sure what CF's thinking on that would be.

 

[Arthra]

how does your particular religion or denomination address the topic of gender? Are women still expected to be housewives and mothers, first and foremost? Can they serve in clerical roles? Are men treated as superior (whether openly or through the traditional "equal but different"-rationalization), or do partners genuinely enjoy equality?

Baha'is believe men and women are equal and that women should have the same opportunities as men in the world. There is no clergy class in the Baha'i Faith and no liturgical rites that are exclusive to men or women.

And among the teachings of His Holiness Bahá'u'lláh is the equality of women and men. The world of humanity has two wings -- one is women and the other men. Not until both wings are equally developed can the bird fly. Should one wing remain weak, flight is impossible. Not until the world of women becomes equal to the world of men in the acquisition of virtues and perfections, can success and prosperity be attained as they ought to be.

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith , p. 288

"It is My hope that the banner of equality may be raised throughout the five continents where as yet it is not fully recognized and established. In this enlightened world of the West woman has advanced an immeasurable degree beyond and women of the Orient. And let it be known once more that until woman and man recognize and realize equality, social and political progress here or anywhere will not be possible. For the world of humanity consists of two parts or members: one is woman; the other is man. Until these two members are equal in strength, the oneness of humanity cannot be established, and the happiness and felicity of mankind will not be a reality. God willing, this is to be so."

~ 'Abdu'l-Bahá: The Promulgation of Universal Peace, 1982 U.S. edition, pp. 74-77

 

[Armoured]

When does a mother finish being a mother?

Why is being a mother exclusive to being anything else?

It's not rhetoric, it's what people do.
Women have more than 2 children on average.
It's biology.

Yet here you are saying they MUST do it

 

[awitch]

So - how does your particular religion or denomination address the topic of gender? Are women still expected to be housewives and mothers, first and foremost? Can they serve in clerical roles? Are men treated as superior (whether openly or through the traditional "equal but different"-rationalization), or do partners genuinely enjoy equality?

I'm a solitary practitioner today, but when I was in a group, rituals were either led by a woman or a woman and a man of equal rank.

There is no expectation that women should be housewives and mothers. Now, it's not an easy job and there's nothing wrong with being one, if she chooses. But I have a daughter and for now, she wants to be a medic on a manned mission to Mars.

 

[Armoured]

I'm a solitary practitioner today, but when I was in a group, rituals were either led by a woman or a woman and a man of equal rank.

There is no expectation that women should be housewives and mothers. Now, it's not an easy job and there's nothing wrong with being one, if she chooses. But I have a daughter and for now, she wants to be a medic on a manned mission to Mars.

I has an envy. My daughter is a real princess girl, and I kinda wanted a tomboy.
She'll play with dinosaurs sometimes but as for space, not no how, even though I've bought her some really cool space toys, toys I would have killed for when I was a kid. But the following conversation about what she wants to be when she grows up ,is a quote...

Me: ...you could even be an astronaut! Her: Yuk! Only boys can be astronauts! M: No, girls can be astronauts too! H: Well I wouldn't be one anyway, they get eaten by aliens. M: I don't think that happens very often... H: Of COURSE it does Daddy, thats why we never see any astronauts when we go to the shops, they've all been eaten by aliens!

How am I meant to argue with that?

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

In Christianity, a woman is an "important assistant", or the most important assistant, to her husband.
What a woman would do, depends on what the husband do or don't do.

Is this the universally held position within the Baptist church?
We've already heard that Lutherans see this *very* differently, so claiming this is the default position "in Christianity" is a rather spurious claim.