The reason why Job had to suffer.

[miknik5]

I don't really get that as the point of Job. I don't get the idea of God singing Kenny Rogers songs. What I do get is the need to stand alongside those who suffer without the assumption that they have done wrong, or that God is punishing them. Job tells us that people suffer, and it may not be their fault, and we need to stand along side them. It is not about why Job suffered, it is about how do we respond, and about how we are not to judge.

Job is not about why bad things happen to good people, but about what we do when bad things happen to good people.

One can't get any better than Job
and the circumstances can't get any worse than job's

Therefore what job did during this time is a model for all men

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

I don't really get that as the point of Job. I don't get the idea of God singing Kenny Rogers songs. What I do get is the need to stand alongside those who suffer without the assumption that they have done wrong, or that God is punishing them. Job tells us that people suffer, and it may not be their fault, and we need to stand along side them. It is not about why Job suffered, it is about how do we respond, and about how we are not to judge.

Job is not about why bad things happen to good people, but about what we do when bad things happen to good people.

The Kenny Rogers reference was unnecessary. We're talking Exegesis here.
Bad things happen to good people. Absolutely. But in the case of Job, how did that begin?

 

[miknik5]

The Kenny Rogers reference was unnecessary. We're talking Exegesis here.
Bad things happen to good people. Absolutely. But in the case of Job, how did that begin?

The hedge was removed. Temporarily. Which changed outward circumstances but not the inward circumstances for Job

These didn't change ( in the sight of GOD) who knew the end for job from the beginning


Job didn't know that. He thought he knew but when his friends started opening their mouths he wasn't so sure anymore and didn't have that assurance which he had from the beginning because of his friends and others voices telling him and suggesting to him and "helping" help

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

The hedge was removed. Temporarily. Which changed outward circumstances but not the inward circumstances for Job

These didn't change ( in the sight of GOD) who knew the end for job from the beginning


Job didn't know that. He thought he knew but when his friends started opening their mouths he wasn't so sure anymore and didn't have that assurance which he had from the beginning because of his friends and others voices telling him and suggesting to him and "helping" help

How was the hedge removed?

 

[miknik5]

How was the hedge removed?

The same way as mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2

HE who "holds back" (all things so we are never totally consumed) no longer holds them back.


Because (temporarily) HE is taken out of the way (and so it seems the hedge of His protection is removed)

And during that time it will be made manifest those who knew HIM and trusted and waited for HIM from those who didn't

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

The same way as mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2

HE who "holds back" (all things so we are never totally consumed) no longer holds them back.


Because (temporarily) HE is taken out of the way (and so it seems the hedge of His protection is removed)

And during that time it will be made manifest those who knew HIM and trusted and waited for HIM from those who didn't

In short, God removed the hedge. Job was completely loyal to God. Satan thought he could be tempted to renounce that loyalty if he suffered greatly. God disagreed. Satan made a wager. God accepted. But under one condition. Satan could not kill Job.
Job suffered because God removed the hedge of protection from Job so that he could win a bet with Satan. Then God returned all that Job had lost twice over after the challenge was satisfied.

 

[miknik5]

In short, God removed the hedge. Job was completely loyal to God. Satan thought he could be tempted to renounce that loyalty if he suffered greatly. God disagreed. Satan made a wager. God accepted. But under one condition. Satan could not kill Job.
Job suffered because God removed the hedge of protection from Job so that he could win a bet with Satan. Then God returned all that Job had lost twice over after the challenge was satisfied.

Again. GOD doesn't have to make a bet to teach Satan anything. GOD doesn't have to enter into any contest with Satan

HE did for one purpose only

To show US that HE is in SOVEREIGN CONTROL

And that Satan has NO POWER over those who belong to GOD

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

Again. GOD doesn't have to make a bet to teach Satan anything. GOD doesn't have to enter into any contest with Satan

HE did for one purpose only

To show US that HE is in SOVEREIGN CONTROL

And that Satan has NO POWER over those who belong to GOD

I am way too old and way too impatient to argue with someone who has no idea about the Book of Job. Or, are getting their jollies being willfully obtuse.

You're clueless.
And I'm done.

 

[Paradoxum]

"I'll hurt you till you love me perfectly".

The sign of a good person.

 

[Paradoxum]

Perhaps some context is fair.

There was once a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job. That man was blameless and upright, one who feared God and turned away from evil.
Job 1:1​

There is no suggestion in the Book of Job that this is not correct. The story of Job is the story of the good person, to whom evil things happen. It asks us to face openly the question is life fair? Reading the Book of Job one gains the impression that life is not fair.

And so we ask the question, If God is good, just, and all powerful, how is it that life is not fair? Now for most of us the question is as uncomfortable for us, as it was for those who first heard it. Those who come to comfort Job are confronted by this issue as well, and they try to help Job understand why he deserves this. Job doesn't give you much of an answer to this either.

The lesson of Job, for those of use who care about people in trouble, is to make sure that we do not do this. Sickness is not a punishment. Hardship is not a punishment. Grief is not a punishment. We are called to be the people who hold on to others who are having trouble holding on. Not to be bastions of wisdom, judgement, or even a people with all the answers. Simply the people who hold on with others.

And sure, when bad things happen to us, there will be times when we will self examine, but that doesn't mean that we will be to blame, simply that we want to be clear. There will be time when we will need other to hold on with us.

I don't really know if it was intended or not, but some of the Story of Job has been kind of reprocessed for us in the movie Forest Gump, to whom a lot of bad things happen. You might recall when it was declared 'it happens'. And another line from the movie of course was 'run Forest run'.

Job is about when bad things happen to good people. Let us remember to stand in solidarity not judgement.

At least that is some of my thoughts.

Terrible things happening to good people makes sense if there's no God.

It doesn't explain the real problem, which is why evil happens with a good God. If he simply allows it, then he's no good.

 

[Philip_B]

Terrible things happening to good people makes sense if there's no God.
It doesn't explain the real problem, which is why evil happens with a good God. If he simply allows it, then he's no good.

It is actually the same question that was posed by the movie Forest Gump. This is not a reality show, this is life. God does not contrive to manipulate the outcomes. Theologically it is called Theodicy, and you can look it up on the internet for more complex arguments. I think the Forest Gump answer is like the Job answer 'it happens'. The real question is how do we respond.

This isn't the only passage which calls a question of God's fairness. Think of the parable of the labourers.

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

It's like the salve people use when tragic things happen. "Everything happens for a reason."
I remember someone saying that when a friend died in a car accident. If that saying were true in that case, then the reason was to make untold numbers of people grieve the loss of a life far too soon. They were 17 at the time.

No, everything doesn't happen for a reason. Things happen. We just say they happen for a reason because that way we can satisfy ourselves there's really something more to what just ripped the carpet out from under our feet.

Psalm 139:13-16 is an interesting verse. Coupled with the others that speak of predestination and all things being predestined by God . If everything happens for a reason, the reason then is it is all as God wills.

If it is all as God wills and our lives are a matter of destiny under God's authority what are we really doing here? After all , free will isn't really a thing in the presence of a universal power that is all knowing, everywhere all the time, and eternal. And that has made a bunch of rules that are to govern our behavior in an , obey or else paradigm that affords reward eternally or eternal punishment for non-compliance. And when those rules are made by a God that as predestined , predetermined, everything that has to do with all that He's created.

You can make a free choice, but even that would be within the circumference of what was predestined. Given what destiny means there's no such thing as a little destiny. A little predestination. A little predetermination. It's a universal eternal incomprehensible higher power.

Job suffered because the Devil thought he could overcome God's will for Job's life. It isn't like the Devil didn't know God was God and had all that power. God made Satan. Satan was part of God when God is the source of everything that exists. (Isaiah 45:7 is one of the most familiar passages that remind of that)
Poor Job had no idea he was the pawn in the middle of the wager.

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

"I'll hurt you till you love me perfectly".

The sign of a good person.

That quoted part is deep in matters of this discussion. It reminds me of a meme I saw not long ago. God loves you. But if you don't love him back he'll send you to Hell.

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

Terrible things happening to good people makes sense if there's no God.

It doesn't explain the real problem, which is why evil happens with a good God. If he simply allows it, then he's no good.

Have you read Isaiah 45:7? Everything is God. Now what? Seriously, no snark involved. Now what? When everything is God, every thing that exists being he's source for all that is, now what? What are we really doing here?

 

[miknik5]

Bitter for sweet, evil for good, darkness for light

attributing to GOD what should not be attributed GOD is the same as cursing/blaming GOD

 

[Dan Bert]

Until you have received confirmation of forgiveness from GOD. This is not a guessing game. The old adage is if you have to ask then you still belong in the gospel of repentance. It is also one of the jobs of the Holy Ghost to bring to your knowledge every sins you have committed when you reached the age of reason. This age varies from one individual to another. It is the day when you become conscious of good and evil. That is the day you eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. The Holy Ghost, will bring bring recollection of all your sins over time. That is also another thing that Holy Ghost does. The reason why it doesn't bring them up all at once it would crush and discourage us. I am not kidding one cannot live with GOD even if has one forgotten unrepentant sin. Repentance is the only thing that is prescribed by The Father in other that we are forgotten.

bert12

How long are we in the gospel of repentance until we start taking part in the gospel of perfection?

The explanation is because they did not believe in JESUS which is why HE said anyone who learns of the father will come to Me.

Just as the words of JESUS :
No one knows The father but the Son and those to whom The Son chooses to reveal Him

For really it is only through Jesus we have access to The father by ONE SPIRIT

When we believe YHE GOSPEL and the ONLY GOSPEL who baptized us, who breathes into us and says "receive the HOLY SPIRIT

 

[Dan Bert]

Jesus said that the words He gives us are the words the Father gave Him. The Commandments vary it depends in which Gospel one is in. The Ten Commandments are for them who are not led by the Spirit. Those who are led by the Spirit are living the higher law. The Voice of GOD. Therefore they do not need to be told, to not lie, to not steal etc.
-------------------------------------------
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

The wicked say this is impossible to do...even in the LDS it has been taught by a Sunday School teacher who was not ready to teach on this stuff.

This is a commandment for them who are ready to move on unto perfection (Hebrews 6:1 and 2)

Those who are asleep, not ready and the blind do not understand this commandment nor believe that it is achievable in this world.

Matthew 5:48 - Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (Perfect as in Love)

This is not for them who still belong in the gospel of repentance.

The Commandments and Statutes began to multiply when Israel after the fled in fear from their God sent Moses to get for them the law. They had promised to obey the law. But Israel required of God more directions...so in the months that followed Israel received over 600 commandments and statutes. Israel tried to perfect themselves by the laws which they could not live perfectly the law. So they incurred wrath for a broken law. Only the prophets and holy men understood and were commanded not to release the higher gospel to Israel. In the book of Revelation it is called the "hidden manna"

bert12

another question

Are Jesus commands separate from the father's commands?

After we have obeyed the father's commands we are given to Jesus to obey his commands?

Does this make sense to YOU?

By whose SPIRIT are we being led since you are separating the gospel of repentance from the gospel of "perfection" and have implied after a period (which has to be translated to obedience to The Father) we are given to The Son

And obedience to the Father should be and is translated to doing HIS WILL

Correct?

Do you agree with Jesus and according to the words of Jesus what the Father's will is?

 

[Dan Bert]

No, "the another gospel which is not another gospel"...since they are both gospels from GOD. That teaching is the result of those Bishops and Pastors who John said that "there were those who went out from us but were not of us" These guys and others who were not in the Gospel of perfection started to force them back down into the gospel of repentance.

It is sort reminiscing of Heb 6-2

Hebrews 6:1 - THEREFORE leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

We are leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ dealing with repentance, when we move into perfection which deals with another gospel called the Hidden Manna ....This the another gospel which is not another. Paul was saying what are you doing back in the gospel of repentance.

Hebrews 6:2 gives the ordinances that belong in the gospel of repentance. That is why we do lay the foundation of repentance after we have been forgiven...it is dead works...Baptism, repentance, laying on of hands etc

Dan Bert.

If you would like we could begin a bible study of Galatians so that you will understand that no, this isn't a personal opinion to this letter but based on the very truth of what is written by the Spirit to this body of believers who were being influenced by the voices and spirits of others outside the body of believers

When did this happen for Paul?

Galatians 1:15 to galatians 1:16
Immediately?
Or after some period of "perfection"


Again how much more perfect, sanctified, Holy,washed than through faith in HIS BLOOD?

When did this happen for Paul?

Galatians 1:15 to galatians 1:16
Immediately?
Or after some period of "perfection"


Again how much more perfect, sanctified, Holy,washed than through faith in HIS BLOOD?

Again you speak of the blood of Jesus Christ. We are sanctified by the blood of Jesus Christ this belongs to the gospel of perfection...did you read the condition that must be fulfilled before the Blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us all of our Transgressions. The only thing that works on sins is repentance. Sanctification happens after we are forgiven.

1 John 1:7 - But"" if"" we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

You notice the condition is if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, 1promise...we have fellowship with one another (one mind) and then the Blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth us from all transgressions. When we are in the gospel of perfection transgression are not turned into sins.

---------------------------------------------------
Galatians 1:15 - But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called [me] by his grace,
Galatians 1:16 - To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Paul suffered the most of the Apostles because there is a penalty to pay for almost single handedly destroying the Church of Christ. With fasting and prayers from the apostles...Christ intervened directly in the life of Paul. Making him blind and sick with fever unto death. The glory of Christ caused the spirit of Paul to cause his body to go blind and brought on the fever unto death...it wanted to leave in shame of what Paul had done. But Christ sent two apostles to heal him by the laying on of hands. Paul state that no man taught him the gospel. It was by study and the Spirit of God that taught Paul until he was ready for his mission to the gentiles. The Gospel of the Grace of GOD is another way of saying the Gospel of perfection which I use. As you can see it is a whole gospel unto itself.

Acts 20:24 - But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

And remember Paul said Howbeit, we speak wisdom unto them that are perfect, yet not the wisdom of this world. This wisdom was not written down.

P/s Paul asked Christ three times to remove his weakness and three times Christ said no. The Prophets like Moses were given weaknesses such as stuttering...to prevent him from saying something that will offend God. Yet it was not enough, Moses one day being very angry with Israel for their lacked of faith, took the glory of God in his anger. His penalty was that He would not set foot in the Holy Land. It was Joshua who led Israel into the Holy land at the crossing of Jordan. By the time Paul was about to be crucified he had overcome his weakness. He was crucified with Peter who he had words often with in his life. By the time they were crucified...they both had inherited their divine nature and the promises. It was the will of God that they die in this manner so they could get a better resurrection. They allowed themselves to die having power over death.

bert12

bert12

 

[miknik5]

Until you have received confirmation of forgiveness from GOD. This is not a guessing game. The old adage is if you have to ask then you still belong in the gospel of repentance. It is also one of the jobs of the Holy Ghost to bring to your knowledge every sins you have committed when you reached the age of reason. This age varies from one individual to another. It is the day when you become conscious of good and evil. That is the day you eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. The Holy Ghost, will bring bring recollection of all your sins over time. That is also another thing that Holy Ghost does. The reason why it doesn't bring them up all at once it would crush and discourage us. I am not kidding one cannot live with GOD even if has one forgotten unrepentant sin. Repentance is the only thing that is prescribed by The Father in other that we are forgotten.

bert12

Why don't you go back to the first apostle and take lessons from him on what GOD requires of us

I think you should find the first preaching of THE GOSPEL in acts

When the wind blows on air, one is brought immediately to that knee-buckling/prick to the heart repentance and the TRUTH that all have sinned. And all were in need of a Saviour who is Lord and the very holiness of GOD that all men were in need of a COVERING

And the HOLY GHOST....HE glorifies THE SON for no one can even say that JESUS IS LORD except by THE SPIRIT

THE SPIRIT takes from HIM and gives to us and the HOLY SOIRIT does not even speak of HIMSELF

 

[miknik5]

Jesus said that the words He gives us are the words the Father gave Him. The Commandments vary it depends in which Gospel one is in. The Ten Commandments are for them who are not led by the Spirit. Those who are led by the Spirit are living the higher law. The Voice of GOD. Therefore they do not need to be told, to not lie, to not steal etc.
-------------------------------------------
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

The wicked say this is impossible to do...even in the LDS it has been taught by a Sunday School teacher who was not ready to teach on this stuff.

This is a commandment for them who are ready to move on unto perfection (Hebrews 6:1 and 2)

Those who are asleep, not ready and the blind do not understand this commandment nor believe that it is achievable in this world.

Matthew 5:48 - Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (Perfect as in Love)

This is not for them who still belong in the gospel of repentance.

The Commandments and Statutes began to multiply when Israel after the fled in fear from their God sent Moses to get for them the law. They had promised to obey the law. But Israel required of God more directions...so in the months that followed Israel received over 600 commandments and statutes. Israel tried to perfect themselves by the laws which they could not live perfectly the law. So they incurred wrath for a broken law. Only the prophets and holy men understood and were commanded not to release the higher gospel to Israel. In the book of Revelation it is called the "hidden manna"

bert12

I am more interested in how you instructed that young teacher on how she wasn't ready to teach.

When she /he said to the students that keeping the law was no possible, was he/she referring to the scriptures and was he/she exalting CHRIST who by the way does indeed take from THE FATHER since just as the scriptures clearly state ALL THAT IS THE FATHERS IS MINE...THIS IS WHY I SAY I WILL TAKE FROM WHAT IS MINE AND GIVE TO YOU

And then the Lord says something very interesting and I am hoping you ca. Explain it to me:

I WILL NOT LEAVE YOU AS
ORPHANS, I WILL COME TO YOU

Sunce CHRIST also said in HIS DIALOGUE to HIS DISCIPLES about THE OROMISE OF THE FATHER, that HE Wwpuld send ANOTHER COMFORTER, who would be with us forever, even the SPIRIT IF TRUTH and also says HE will come to us, who then is with us leading and teaching us?

And if we are perfect we no longer need to be led and taught

What do you think Paul meant when he said my conscience does not betray me but that firs not make me innocent