The Origin of Dark vs Light

[MotherFirefly]

Within every human being lies a capability for good and evil. This is something which seemingly cannot be argued... right?

It certainly seems indisputable simply by reading the news every day. The scope of which humanity can practice evil is appalling, but our tendency to do good can be just as encouraging.
But why are certain actions defined as good or evil? Is what I find good similar to what you find good?
Is how I define good perhaps what you define as evil?

For most religious people who worship a benevolent god, it is a bit simpler as they have an 'ultimate good' to compare everything to. Anything of their god, and to the benefit of mankind as a whole, could be seen as good. While the polar opposite is evil.
What if your god and my god are that polar opposite of eachother?

However, how would you define good and evil in an atheistic world?
If we had not a sun, could we distinguish between dark and light?

In the primal carnage of animalistic society, is it evil to kill a fellow creature?
Is it evil to eat them?
Is it good to give up your family's food for another?

What is it that makes us cringe at a bloody murder, and smile at the happiness of another?
What is it that causes us to indulge in satisfaction of the death of a criminal, while feeling angry when they are released?
Why are these feelings two-fold when the victim is someone we hold dear?

In the case of a planet given life by the sun, where did darkness come from?
What of a planet that knows no sun, from where did light first shine?


For what reason do those who hold seperate beliefs in a deity, and those that believe in none, come to a distinct crossroads of defining the ethics and morality of the human race?

 

[SkyWriting]

But why are certain actions defined as good or evil? Is what I find good similar to what you find good?
Is how I define good perhaps what you define as evil?

Evil is unable to create.
Evil only has the power to corrupt or destroy what is good.
It has no power itself to do anything.

 

[MotherFirefly]

Evil is unable to create.
Evil only has the power to corrupt or destroy what is good.
It has no power itself to do anything.

So, you define evil as the creation of destruction and corruption?
Do you define good as that which is destroyed or corrupted?
How then do you define destruction?
Corruption?

 

[SkyWriting]

So, you define evil as the creation of destruction and corruption?
Do you define good as that which is destroyed or corrupted?
How then do you define destruction?
Corruption?

Sure. Any other questions?

Life vs Death

Light Vs. Dark:

 

[quatona]

Within every human being lies a capability for good and evil. This is something which seemingly cannot be argued... right?

First of all, there is a capability to evaluate, to compare and to judge.

It certainly seems indisputable simply by reading the news every day. The scope of which humanity can practice evil is appalling, but our tendency to do good can be just as encouraging.

Since you are about to ask for definitions of "good" and "evil", this seems to be the second step before the first.

But why are certain actions defined as good or evil?

There are a lot of different criteria and standards around, and they often change depending on the situation.

Is what I find good similar to what you find good?

I don´t know you, so I can´t tell for sure - but in my experience two persons typically have a certain amount of common values and a certain amount of differing values.

Is how I define good perhaps what you define as evil?

Possibly - although I personally don´t have the word "evil" in my active vocabulary. But it´s possible that our values don´t match.

For most religious people who worship a benevolent god, it is a bit simpler as they have an 'ultimate good' to compare everything to. Anything of their god, and to the benefit of mankind as a whole, could be seen as good. While the polar opposite is evil.

Well, just like religious people do, everyone can declare whatever perceived standard "ultimate".

What if your god and my god are that polar opposite of eachother?

Good point. That´s why I don´t see how projecting your moral stances on gods doesn´t help with anything.

However, how would you define good and evil in an atheistic world?

That´s a strange question. I don´t think that atheism can possibly inform my morality/ethics.

If we had not a sun, could we distinguish between dark and light?

Sure. Why not? We have ways of measuring light that do not depend on the sun as comparandum.

In the primal carnage of animalistic society, is it evil to kill a fellow creature?
Is it evil to eat them?
Is it good to give up your family's food for another?

I don´t know - because I can´t go back there. And I don´t care - because I don´t live under those circumstances.

What is it that makes us cringe at a bloody murder, and smile at the happiness of another?

Basically, it´s a mechanism that renders the imagination or the observing of something enjoyable or unenjoyable a bit like we had actually experienced it. That´s why you go "ouch" when you see someone cutting themselves.

What is it that causes us to indulge in satisfaction of the death of a criminal, while feeling angry when they are released?

Well, I do neither. I suspect the reason for you to do so is 1. fear, and 2. a desire for safety/security.

Why are these feelings two-fold when the victim is someone we hold dear?

Tribalism?

In the case of a planet given life by the sun, where did darkness come from?
What of a planet that knows no sun, from where did light first shine?

I´m afraid I don´t understand these questions.

For what reason do those who hold seperate beliefs in a deity, and those that believe in none, come to a distinct crossroads of defining the ethics and morality of the human race?

They are people, they have values. I´m not sure what theism or lack thereof has to do with anything.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Within every human being lies a capability for good and evil. This is something which seemingly cannot be argued... right?

Wrong.
This idea may be or is the cause of much evil on earth, and much deadly religion.
(And potentially the cause/reason for a multitude of error-ful posts and threads on all (almost all) forums)

 

[MotherFirefly]

@yeshuaslavejeff
I feel like you took my post from a very odd angle..

I think, when taking a philosophical approach to subjects related to life, existence, morality, humans, etc... it is important to think on the subject in a way that is void of personal opinion and biased reasoning. Nothing in my post was my personal feelings nor opinions, but merely hypothetical and metaphorical questions and statements meant to fuel an imaginitive thought process and deeper pondering on good and evil.

I hate to do this, post-edit, but here is a simpler version of my questions -

Spoiler

why is there good, why is there evil?
Does what we perceive as good/evil change alongside socially conditioned mindsets?
Do gods and religion play a role in defining good and evil, even if one does not practice such things?
If there is a benevolent god(s), why is there evil?
If there is no higher benevolent being, why is there good?

Why do we, generally as a human race, hold such similar definitions on where the line of good vs evil is drawn, regardless of religious beliefs?
What makes us hold to these values?
What makes us abandon these values?

I would like to see others' ideas and questions and possible answers, rather than debate and close-minded opinions. Perhaps I am posting this on the wrong forum for that..

 

[quatona]

why is there good, why is there evil?

"Good" and "evil" are a way of looking at things.

Does what we perceive as good/evil change alongside socially conditioned mindsets?

Social conditioning certainly plays a part.

Do gods and religion play a role in defining good and evil, even if one does not practice such things?

Religions yes, gods no.

If there is a benevolent god(s), why is there evil?
If there is no higher benevolent being, why is there good?

Personally, I see absolutely no need to bring supposedly other-worldly entities into the equation.
We prefer certain things, we dislike other things - that´s hardly surprising, seeing that we are living, conscious creatures with the ability to suffer. It´s not quite as simple as that - but that´s where it all starts.

Why do we, generally as a human race, hold such similar definitions on where the line of good vs evil is drawn, regardless of religious beliefs?

We all share similar basic needs.

What makes us hold to these values?

The realization that everything else makes no sense. Why would I hold values and not hold to them?

What makes us abandon these values?

Oftentimes the fact that they are in conflict with another, supposedly greater value.

 

[MotherFirefly]

"Good" and "evil" are a way of looking at things.

Absolutely. Yet, the majority of humankind does not look at things in such a nuetral state.. it makes me wonder where that started. And why. Other animals have a much more narrow look.. basic needs and survival. They kill to eat, and provide only for themselves.

Social conditioning certainly plays a part.

Why do you think that is the case? Does morality only exist because of this?

Religions yes, gods no.

Why and why not?

Personally, I see absolutely no need to bring supposedly other-worldly entities into the equation.
We prefer certain things, we dislike other things - that´s hardly surprising, seeing that we are living, conscious creatures with the ability to suffer. It´s not quite as simple as that - but that´s where it all starts.

Ok, that is fine. So if we take higher beings out of the equation, where did our ability for empathy for others, as well as our drive of selfish desire, take the spotlight from a nuetral basic instinct to survive?

The realization that everything else makes no sense. Why would I hold values and not hold to them?

Why do you hold onto them? Or even feel the need to have them in the first place?

Oftentimes the fact that they are in conflict with another, supposedly greater value.

Perhaps the greatest value of all.. selfishness? Do we keep a prideful stance on 'good' only until we feel uncomfortable?
If our opinions of morality can be so easily stirred, why do we set them to begin with?

What drives the human race to be 'good' to eachother? To sacrifice?
What drives the human race to do harm to eachother? Or 'evil', as we have collectively named it.

 

[quatona]

Absolutely. Yet, the majority of humankind does not look at things in such a nuetral state.. it makes me wonder where that started. And why. Other animals have a much more narrow look.. basic needs and survival. They kill to eat, and provide only for themselves.

Yeah, and trees probably don´t even think about this.
And humans can´t spread their wings and fly.
Humans are different from other animals in many respects, and even more so is the human brain.
It gives us abstract thinking, it gives us creativity, it gives us complex feelings, it allows us to premeditate.
From my perspective, it would be strange to have a brain like that and not entertain "moral" ideas. I am not sure which part you find is in need of an explanation.

Why do you think that is the case?

Observation, no? Different cultures, different values. The upbringing of kids leaves traces, obviously.

Does morality only exist because of this?

No - morality exists because it suggests itself to a conscious being.
Social conditioning plays a part in the particular morality a person holds - among other factors. Plus, a functioning society requires a minimum of shared values, so it´s going to do its best to secure such for the future.

Why

"Morality" has always been a central topic of religions.

and why not?

Because I don´t know that gods exist - other than as a human creations.

Ok, that is fine. So if we take higher beings out of the equation, where did our ability for empathy for others, as well as our drive of selfish desire, take the spotlight from a nuetral basic instinct to survive?

I don´t know what you mean by "where"?
I am not a natural scientist, but one explanation I have seen for the high performance of the human brain is: cooking food. Eating but raw food would never give an animal enough energy to have a high performance brain like humans have. Is that the sort of explanation you are looking for?

Why do you hold onto them? Or even feel the need to have them in the first place?

Why sure. The human brain seems to be depending on giving meaning to stuff; we want to act purposefully; we are premeditating.

Perhaps the greatest value of all.. selfishness?

From my perspective, that appears to be an antiquated misanthropic view.
As soon as humans leave the toddler-stage behind, they are most concerned with being cooperative. Primarily, because their existence and their well being is depending on the existence and well-being of others; also, because they need to learn how human interaction works (just like they spend 100% of their time trying to understand how everything works).

Do we keep a prideful stance on 'good' only until we feel uncomfortable?

Sorry, I personally wouldn´t include myself in this "we". The question is based on premises I don´t share.

If our opinions of morality can be so easily stirred, why do we set them to begin with?

I don´t know that "our morality can be so easily stirred" - could you give a few examples so I get an idea what you are talking about?

What drives the human race to be 'good' to eachother? To sacrifice?
What drives the human race to do harm to eachother? Or 'evil', as we have collectively named it.

Personally, I think that concepts like "selfishness" vs. "selflessness", "altruism" vs. "egotism" etc. aren´t adequate. We find ourselves as part of systems (families, groups, partnerships, etc.), and it´s not really hard for a thinking person to see the existential interdependence between the system and the individual (and, thus, the individuals). So we are existentially required to consider our individual needs as well as the needs of the system(s) and its other members. That in itself is not rocket-science (although in detail it can be very complex, at times - and there´s always a risk of producing something that someone else will perceive as "evil").

 

[Eudaimonist]

However, how would you define good and evil in an atheistic world?

The good is what is beneficial to human life. In short, the good is pro-human flourishing.

The evil is the opposite.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[MennoSota]

"In the beginning, God..."

There is nothing more to discuss. The Creator defines right and wrong, good and bad. The idea that we can philosophize our way into being the arbiters is simply ludicrous. (Drop mic, walk off stage.).........

 

[bhsmte]

"In the beginning, God..."

There is nothing more to discuss. The Creator defines right and wrong, good and bad. The idea that we can philosophize our way into being the arbiters is simply ludicrous. (Drop mic, walk off stage.).........

Opinion.

 

[MennoSota]

Opinion.

Nope. God stated a fact.

 

[bhsmte]

Nope. God stated a fact.

Until you can demonstrate God stated anything with reliable evidence, it is opinion. And hey, if it works for you, knock yourself out.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Within every human being lies a capability for good and evil. This is something which seemingly cannot be argued... right?

It certainly seems indisputable simply by reading the news every day. The scope of which humanity can practice evil is appalling, but our tendency to do good can be just as encouraging.
But why are certain actions defined as good or evil? Is what I find good similar to what you find good?
Is how I define good perhaps what you define as evil?

For most religious people who worship a benevolent god, it is a bit simpler as they have an 'ultimate good' to compare everything to. Anything of their god, and to the benefit of mankind as a whole, could be seen as good. While the polar opposite is evil.
What if your god and my god are that polar opposite of eachother?

However, how would you define good and evil in an atheistic world?
If we had not a sun, could we distinguish between dark and light?

In the primal carnage of animalistic society, is it evil to kill a fellow creature?
Is it evil to eat them?
Is it good to give up your family's food for another?

What is it that makes us cringe at a bloody murder, and smile at the happiness of another?
What is it that causes us to indulge in satisfaction of the death of a criminal, while feeling angry when they are released?
Why are these feelings two-fold when the victim is someone we hold dear?

In the case of a planet given life by the sun, where did darkness come from?
What of a planet that knows no sun, from where did light first shine?


For what reason do those who hold seperate beliefs in a deity, and those that believe in none, come to a distinct crossroads of defining the ethics and morality of the human race?

This is a lot of questions...

Did you really want answers to all of them or just a couple?

 

[CodyFaith]

I believe morality is set in stone. That is, there are some things that simply are evil, and some things that are good. I believe we don't define morality, and that morality is defined in itself.

I also believe that love is good, things done out of love are good, evil is things that are not done out of love.

And I also believe in some people's ability to recognize good and evil, at some level. I don't believe we're just floating around guessing what's good and what's evil and doing it robotically, I believe we can call a spade a spade for the most part, not only in our minds but from our hearts. I say some because not everyone can, especially people's whose hearts are seared shut and don't love others.

I will say too, that, your first statement is definitely something argued- many people, Christians included, disagree. Some Christians for example believe that humans are completely incapable of doing any good at all until they are regenerated by the Holy Spirit, and even then the definition of good isn't the definition seems to be implied here. Some atheists, for example, would argue that there is no such thing as good and evil and that it's just an idea made up by humans. Two examples of many.

 

[MotherFirefly]

I believe morality is set in stone. That is, there are some things that simply are evil, and some things that are good. I believe we don't define morality, and that morality is defined in itself.

Do you think morality is defined by the action or the reaction?

Is murder evil? If so, is that simply because someone died? Or is it because of the feelings invoked in those involved? The possible regret in the one who did the deed, or the fear in those who witness, afraid of finding a similar fate?

What if someone attacks your family, and you kill them of self defense? What seperates that from murder of an 'innocent'? The action is the same, the result the same, yet the feelings invoked in those involved is different. Is it these 'justifications' we create for different circumstances that set the foundation for morality?

A robber who steals from a bank compared to a mother stealing food for her starving children. The action is the same, yet we find it easy to justify one side over another, right?

If morality is so set, why does it seem humanity can sway it on a whim when emotions fuel such positions?

Perhaps morality is a delusion created to feel a sense of control in the chaos of circumstances which we cause upon ourselves.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Do you think morality is defined by the action or the reaction?

Is murder evil? If so, is that simply because someone died? Or is it because of the feelings invoked in those involved? The possible regret in the one who did the deed, or the fear in those who witness, afraid of finding a similar fate?

What if someone attacks your family, and you kill them of self defense? What seperates that from murder of an 'innocent'? The action is the same, the result the same, yet the feelings invoked in those involved is different. Is it these 'justifications' we create for different circumstances that set the foundation for morality?

A robber who steals from a bank compared to a mother stealing food for her starving children. The action is the same, yet we find it easy to justify one side over another, right?

If morality is so set, why does it seem humanity can sway it on a whim when emotions fuel such positions?

Perhaps morality is a delusion created to feel a sense of control in the chaos of circumstances which we cause upon ourselves.

I don't know if it's a delusion...

Perhaps it would make more sense to just think of it as an opinion. In certain circumstances you have an idea of what's "good" or "right"...and so do I. Maybe we agree on what that is...maybe we don't.

The big clue here is that we can never prove what's right or wrong...we would always just be arguing our opinions.

 

[quatona]

Perhaps morality is a delusion created to feel a sense of control in the chaos of circumstances which we cause upon ourselves.

In any case, human morality serves human purposes, and that´s a good thing.
I wouldn´t call human concepts and feelings "delusions" just because they aren´t things out there.