Against OSAS: some of the best warnings to the churches!

[EmSw]

The main theme is the necessity of being known by Jesus Christ.

In the case of the Matthew passage the people in question were "never" known by Him.

It does not, therefore, belong in a discussion of OSAS as this thread is intended.

Marvin, what does it mean to follow Jesus? Jesus said He knows His sheep who follow Him.

Is a person who is living in iniquity following Jesus?

 

[FreeGrace2]

OSAS does not survive the Bible details in Romans 11

This statement only proves what Marvin just posted. Rom 11:29 SAYS that the gifts of God are irrevocable. And Paul previously in that same epistle described both justification and eternal life as gifts of God. Going outside of Romans, we learn that salvation and the indwelling Holy Spirit are gifts of God.

We have this for those who claim salvation is not being discussed in Romans 11 --

11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! 13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.

And we also have this --

Romans 11
13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. ...

20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again

Because Paul followed up these verses with the plain statement that God's gifts are irrevocable, it should be obvious that being "cut off" doesn't mean loss of salvation.

Since the subject is the Jews, what did they have in their favor? They were God's chosen people, with the responsibility of preserving His Word. They were chosen for service for God. And they blew it. Buy their lack of faith, God cut them off from service.

Romans 2
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

What is your point of quoting these verses? Please explain when quoting Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Which is why OSAS does not survive 1 Corinthians 6 or Matthew 18.

1 Cor 6 isn't about not entering the kingdom, but having no inheritance in the kingdom. It is one of 3 parallel passages, the others being Gal 6 and Eph 5. 1 Cor 6 and Gal 6 speak of "not inheriting the kingdom" and Eph 5 speaks of "having no inheritance in the kingdom". Otherwise, the passages are parallel and speak of lifestyles/behaviors that will result in having no inheritance or not inheriting the kingdom.

There is NO REASON to assume that "not inheriting the kingdom" means "not entering the kingdom". But that's what people do when pushing their own agenda; make different words mean the same thing, which they don't.

The concept of inheriting the kingdom is also found in Rom 8:17b (co-reigning with Christ) and 2 Tim 2:12 (enduring results in reigning with Christ). The obvious meaning is that not every believer will reign with Christ. Only those who endure, or avoid the lists found in 21 Cor 6, Gal 6 and Eph 5.

Eternal security stands.

 

[FreeGrace2]

In Ezekiel 18:24 it says,

"But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die."

In other words, if a believer sins, his previous righteousness shall not be remembered or mentioned. It's the same when a person first comes to Christ. Their previous past sins are forgiven and remembered no more. In other words, the door swings both ways. Anyways, seeing God identifies with the righteous, and not sinful people, God will act like he never knew a person if they have fallen away into sinning or into believing a doctrine that teaches that one can sin and still be saved. Based on Ezekiel 18:24, God will no longer remember their righteousness (or them as a righteous saint) because of their sin.
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The context for this passage is God's discipline resulting in physical death. It has nothing to do with loss of salvation.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The context for this passage is God's discipline resulting in physical death. It has nothing to do with loss of salvation.

No. This is not true. From the beginning to the end of God's Word, "death" also relates to "spiritual death" for those who commit sin.

For example: When God said to Adam that the day he eats of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, he will die. But did Adam die physcially? No. This means God was referring to spiritual death and not excusively physical death.

Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death." (John 8:51)

Now, it is obvious here that Jesus was not referring to physical death here because many righteous believers have remained faithful at the cost of their own physical lives. In other words, they died physically.

Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death. (Revelation 2:10-11).

The "second death" is the Lake of Fire according to Revelation 21:8.

Spiritual death is also mentioned in 1 Timothy 5:6 by the apostle Paul. He says,

"But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives."

Right after these words, Paul then tells us about how a certain group of widows have turned away from their faithfulness to Jesus (1 Timothy 5:11) to then follow after Satan (1 Timothy 5:15). Now, stop and think for a moment. An unbeliever cannot turn away and follow after Satan if they are already within his grip.


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[FreeGrace2]

No. This is not true. From the beginning to the end of God's Word, "death" also relates to "spiritual death" for those who commit sin.

Your right to be wrong will be defended by me all day long. But your claim is still wrong.

For example: When God said to Adam that the day he eats of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, he will die. But did Adam die physcially? No. This means God was referring to spiritual death and not excusively physical death.

Actually, the literal Hebrew says "dying, you will die". There were 2 different deaths in that statement.

The word "dying" refers to the process of physical death, which takes place over time. The next word, "die" refers specifically to spiritual death, or separation from God.

Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death." (John 8:51)

Clearly referring to having eternal life.

Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death. (Revelation 2:10-11).

Here we see both physical and spiritual death.

Spiritual death is also mentioned in 1 Timothy 5:6 by the apostle Paul. He says,

"But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives."

Nope. It refers to loss of fellowship, just as the prodigal son was "dead" to his father while in a far country. When he returned, fellowship returned and the father described that as "my son is alive again". There was no meaning of spiritual death and life in that parable.

Furthermore, Paul taught that the gifts of God are irrevocable, and eternal life is one of them.

Right after these words, Paul then tells us about how a certain group of widows have turned away from their faithfulness to Jesus (1 Timothy 5:11) to then follow after Satan (1 Timothy 5:15). Now, stop and think for a moment. An unbeliever cannot turn away and follow after Satan if they are already within his grip....

Your niavity again shows it head. Of course believers can be deceived to follow the devil. But no where in Scripture do we find anything about loss of salvation.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Your right to be wrong will be defended by me all day long. But your claim is still wrong.


Actually, the literal Hebrew says "dying, you will die". There were 2 different deaths in that statement.

The word "dying" refers to the process of physical death, which takes place over time. The next word, "die" refers specifically to spiritual death, or separation from God.


Clearly referring to having eternal life.


Here we see both physical and spiritual death.


Nope. It refers to loss of fellowship, just as the prodigal son was "dead" to his father while in a far country. When he returned, fellowship returned and the father described that as "my son is alive again". There was no meaning of spiritual death and life in that parable.

Furthermore, Paul taught that the gifts of God are irrevocable, and eternal life is one of them.


Your niavity again shows it head. Of course believers can be deceived to follow the devil. But no where in Scripture do we find anything about loss of salvation.

There is no point in replying at this point. Your explanations do not make any sense. People can read those verses for themselves and see what they plainly say for themselves.


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[FreeGrace2]

There is no point in replying at this point. Your explanations do not make any sense. People can read those verses for themselves and see what they plainly say for themselves. ...

Which is why I pointed out "the LITERAL Hebrew. No English translation renders what the Hebrew says. They all leave out the "dying".

I'm sorry that my explanations don't make sense to you, but they are quite simple and shouldn't be at all difficult to understand.

How about taking what I said and asking for clarification of anything that you don't understand? Wouldn't that be helpful?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Which is why I pointed out "the LITERAL Hebrew. No English translation renders what the Hebrew says. They all leave out the "dying".

I'm sorry that my explanations don't make sense to you, but they are quite simple and shouldn't be at all difficult to understand.

How about taking what I said and asking for clarification of anything that you don't understand? Wouldn't that be helpful?

Sorry, God translates the languages just fine with no problems. This should be apparent if one were to read Acts chapter 2.


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[Marvin Knox]

Marvin, what does it mean to follow Jesus? Jesus said He knows His sheep who follow Him.

Is a person who is living in iniquity following Jesus?

I will engage you with a direct question. If no direct answer is forthcoming I will cease to dialog with you.

Do you have an example of someone living in iniquity who claims to be following Jesus while he so lives?

Even Christ's sheep go astray for awhile. There are many examples in scripture not the least of which is Peter.

(An example of one who was living in iniquity before repenting can be found in the Corinthian letter. But it says nothing about the man losing his salvation because of it or that he was claiming to be following Jesus while sinning.)

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Which is why I pointed out "the LITERAL Hebrew. No English translation renders what the Hebrew says. They all leave out the "dying"."

Sorry, God translates the languages just fine with no problems.

Not only does this not make any sense, it has nothing to do with what you responded to in my post.

All you've done is ignore the fact of what the literal Hebrew SAYS. And God doesn't "translates" languages. He speaks through writers. Who are then translated by various translators.

Your lack of interest or respect for what the original languages actually say, simply because they don't support what you believe.

 

[EmSw]

I will engage you with a direct question. If no direct answer is forthcoming we will cease to dialog with you.

Do you have an example of someone living in iniquity who claims to be following Jesus while he so lives?

Even Christ's sheep go astray for awhile. There are many examples in scripture not the least of which is Peter.

(An example of one who was living in iniquity before repenting can be found in the Corinthian letter. But it says nothing about the man losing his salvation because of it or that he was claiming to be following Jesus while sinning.)

Right off the bat, I would say Judas would answer your question. He didn't claim to follow Jesus; he actually did follow Jesus for 3+ years.

Besides, do you think there aren't any who claim to follow Jesus, and yet are living in iniquity?

And, Peter didn't live in iniquity.