LDS Joseph Smith's Claim of an Apostasy is a Lie

[dzheremi]

Not me. I'm not an Egyptologist. The actual Egyptologists featured at the end of that video say otherwise, however. Again, what is the reason for Joseph's unique 'translation' method? Actual Egyptologists or translators do not work that way. Why did Joseph work that way?

 

[mmksparbud]

Translators don't work that way---well, neither do prophets! Name one prophet--outside of a few words that Daniel translated that were written on a wall---where a whole room of people could see not only the writing on it but the hand that wrote it. And he certainly didn't need a stone in a hat to translate those words, God told him what they meant. Not one prophet has ever been given a bunch of stuff he could not read and had to use a stone in a hat to translate it. When God wanted to tell someone something, He told them. The Urim and Thummim were never used to translate anything---they were used by the High Priest ONLY, and when there was a question and no one--not even the Jews--know exactly how they were used. It is sacrilege to call what JS did using the Urim and Thummim. There is no one--absolutely no one--but Jesus as our ONLY High Priest--that would be qualified to use them. And He doesn't need to use them as He knows the will of God. They were mentioned only a few times, and then never again, and not one single person - save God--knows what happened to them--it's for certain JS was never given them.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Well your wrong. Abraham was teaching the gospel using the characters they were familiar with.

That's not what the scrolls say. No Abraham in those scrolls.

 

[Peter1000]

That's not what the scrolls say. No Abraham in those scrolls.

Have you seen the scrolls? Has your favorite scholar seen the scrolls?

 

[Peter1000]

Translators don't work that way---well, neither do prophets! Name one prophet--outside of a few words that Daniel translated that were written on a wall---where a whole room of people could see not only the writing on it but the hand that wrote it. And he certainly didn't need a stone in a hat to translate those words, God told him what they meant. Not one prophet has ever been given a bunch of stuff he could not read and had to use a stone in a hat to translate it. When God wanted to tell someone something, He told them. The Urim and Thummim were never used to translate anything---they were used by the High Priest ONLY, and when there was a question and no one--not even the Jews--know exactly how they were used. It is sacrilege to call what JS did using the Urim and Thummim. There is no one--absolutely no one--but Jesus as our ONLY High Priest--that would be qualified to use them. And He doesn't need to use them as He knows the will of God. They were mentioned only a few times, and then never again, and not one single person - save God--knows what happened to them--it's for certain JS was never given them.

If nobody knows what the U & T was used for, how do you come to the conclusion that it was sacrilege what JS did with them.

To say Jesus is the only one qualified to use them, is a silly statement. Jesus was the one that was giving the answers to the one that had the
U & T.

 

[Peter1000]

Translators don't work that way---well, neither do prophets! Name one prophet--outside of a few words that Daniel translated that were written on a wall---where a whole room of people could see not only the writing on it but the hand that wrote it. And he certainly didn't need a stone in a hat to translate those words, God told him what they meant. Not one prophet has ever been given a bunch of stuff he could not read and had to use a stone in a hat to translate it. When God wanted to tell someone something, He told them. The Urim and Thummim were never used to translate anything---they were used by the High Priest ONLY, and when there was a question and no one--not even the Jews--know exactly how they were used. It is sacrilege to call what JS did using the Urim and Thummim. There is no one--absolutely no one--but Jesus as our ONLY High Priest--that would be qualified to use them. And He doesn't need to use them as He knows the will of God. They were mentioned only a few times, and then never again, and not one single person - save God--knows what happened to them--it's for certain JS was never given them.

Well, tell us all how translators work. Tell us how prophets work. Thank you.

 

[mmksparbud]

If nobody knows what the U & T was used for, how do you come to the conclusion that it was sacrilege what JS did with them.

To say Jesus is the only one qualified to use them, is a silly statement. Jesus was the one that was giving the answers to the one that had the
U & T.

• They were to be used by the High Priest Only---Not even Moses used them--and only Jesus Christ is our High Priest now!!!--so NO--JS, nor any other human, can not in any way, use them. And no one, knows what happened to them. Even if they could be found, it would be sacrilege for any human being to use them!

 

[mmksparbud]

Well, tell us all how translators work. Tell us how prophets work. Thank you.

Already stated--not one single prophet was ever given a bunch of writings that they could not understand and told to translate them---Whatever God wanted a prophet to know----He told them----verbally, dreams, visions---no translations needed--God knows how to communicate with His prophets in whatever language they know! No translators have ever used a stone in a hat to translate anhything---God gives the information needed at the right time --- as when the Rosetta stone was found that allowed for the deciphering of the REAL Egyptian hieroglyphics.

 

[Peter1000]

• They were to be used by the High Priest Only---Not even Moses used them--and only Jesus Christ is our High Priest now!!!--so NO--JS, nor any other human, can not in any way, use them. And no one, knows what happened to them. Even if they could be found, it would be sacrilege for any human being to use them!

Scholars know so little about the U & T, so to make these kinds of statements is overreaching, especially the sacrilege part. You absolutely do no know if it would be sacrilege.

If God Himself or by His messenger, came to a man and gave him the U & T to translate an ancient record, who are you to say it would be sacrilege for that man to use them this way? You would have to argue with God. Good luck with that.

 

[Peter1000]

Already stated--not one single prophet was ever given a bunch of writings that they could not understand and told to translate them---Whatever God wanted a prophet to know----He told them----verbally, dreams, visions---no translations needed--God knows how to communicate with His prophets in whatever language they know! No translators have ever used a stone in a hat to translate anhything---God gives the information needed at the right time --- as when the Rosetta stone was found that allowed for the deciphering of the REAL Egyptian hieroglyphics.

If there were Christians living in South and Central America between 600BC and 420AD and they wrote in a lanquage call reformed Egyptian, that nobody in the world knew how to translate and God wanted their record translated and given to the world, as a second witness that He is the Christ, how would He do that?

 

[Peter1000]

Not me. I'm not an Egyptologist. The actual Egyptologists featured at the end of that video say otherwise, however. Again, what is the reason for Joseph's unique 'translation' method? Actual Egyptologists or translators do not work that way. Why did Joseph work that way?

It is because that is the way God chose for him to translate. JS was not an Egyptologist, nor was anyone around 1824 able to read and translate Reformed Egyptian. So God gave JS the instruments and the revelation to do the work. The result was a 531 page book, containing the history of God's dealings with people who left Jerusalem around 600BC and ended around 420AD in Mexico City.

The last time I looked it ranked in the top 10 books ever published, with distribution in the millions, and in 150 different languages.

So, God used a 20 year old farm boy to translate a second witness that he is the Christ, the Savior of the World. As Jesus says as recorded in the bible says: And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God (Luke 4:4). God wanted you to know His Words to these people and their testimonies about Him. It is as important to know their testimonies as it is to know of the testimonies of those living in and around Jerusalem. Every Word of God is important. Even the Word of God given to JS.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Have you seen the scrolls? Has your favorite scholar seen the scrolls?

Is that 'really' your response? Grasping at straws already.

 

[ToBeLoved]

It is because that is the way God chose for him to translate. JS was not an Egyptologist, nor was anyone around 1824 able to read and translate Reformed Egyptian. So God gave JS the instruments and the revelation to do the work. The result was a 531 page book, containing the history of God's dealings with people who left Jerusalem around 600BC and ended around 420AD in Mexico City.

The last time I looked it ranked in the top 10 books ever published, with distribution in the millions, and in 150 different languages.

So, God used a 20 year old farm boy to translate a second witness that he is the Christ, the Savior of the World. As Jesus says as recorded in the bible says: And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God (Luke 4:4). God wanted you to know His Words to these people and their testimonies about Him. It is as important to know their testimonies as it is to know of the testimonies of those living in and around Jerusalem. Every Word of God is important. Even the Word of God given to JS.

The Bible is the Word of God, hence Luke a Book in the Bible saying so.

If your prophet spoke the words of god, he would not have mistranslated or even tried to translate a pagan hyroglif. Come on now.

 

[ToBeLoved]

If there were Christians living in South and Central America between 600BC and 420AD and they wrote in a lanquage call reformed Egyptian, that nobody in the world knew how to translate and God wanted their record translated and given to the world, as a second witness that He is the Christ, how would He do that?

The problem is that God said that the work to equip the saints was finished after the Bible.

Reformed Egyptian as a language does not exist. JS made it up.

Matthew 7:15-20
15 Beware of false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Are grapes gathered from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20So then, by their fruit you will recognize them.

No church devoted to Christ would spend billions on a mall. No church. God instructs us where our treasure lies, and it is not on earth.

 

[Peter1000]

The Bible is the Word of God, hence Luke a Book in the Bible saying so.

If your prophet spoke the words of god, he would not have mistranslated or even tried to translate a pagan hyroglif. Come on now.

It was revealed to JS that the scrolls he was looking at were written by the prophet Abraham with Egyptian hieroglyphic characters. IOW, in their language.

You have nothing to counter that with. You haven't got the scrolls to examine, therefore if JS says this and you say that, it comes down to who you believe. I believe JS. You don't, but to call him a fraud is not very smart of you.

Show me the scrolls and their interpretation from 3 different Egyptian scholars, and I will take another look.

 

[mmksparbud]

Scholars know so little about the U & T, so to make these kinds of statements is overreaching, especially the sacrilege part. You absolutely do no know if it would be sacrilege.

If God Himself or by His messenger, came to a man and gave him the U & T to translate an ancient record, who are you to say it would be sacrilege for that man to use them this way? You would have to argue with God. Good luck with that.

• Again----Only the High Priest used them---Period. I don't argue with God. JS said he has the right to use them---There is no proof he ever had them, and certainly no proof that God gave him anything. The High Priest and the High Priest only -- anything else would have been worse than sacrilege--Jesus Christ is the only High Priest. They were never used to translate---they were used to find out the will of God when no other direction had been given. It is thought one was black and one was white---no one knows how the answer was delivered, some say one would light up for yes, the white, and the black for no---the bible didn't give detailed answers---it was yes or no---I've checked many Jewish sites and they all say the same thing--yes or no answers.

 

[mmksparbud]

If there were Christians living in South and Central America between 600BC and 420AD and they wrote in a lanquage call reformed Egyptian, that nobody in the world knew how to translate and God wanted their record translated and given to the world, as a second witness that He is the Christ, how would He do that?

Well. let's see---whoever wrote the Torah--was told the story by God. He didn't have to translate a thing. When God wants someone to know something---He tells them in their own language---He had Moses up on the mountain for 40 days telling Him what He wanted Moses to write down. He didn't need to translate a thing, no prophet ever has.

 

[Peter1000]

Is that 'really' your response? Grasping at straws already.

There is no grasping at straws from my side. Your the one that is calling JS a fraud with no evidence to back it up. Again, show me the scrolls and their interpretation from 3 different Egyptian scholars and i will take another look.

 

[Peter1000]

The problem is that God said that the work to equip the saints was finished after the Bible.

Reformed Egyptian as a language does not exist. JS made it up.

Matthew 7:15-20
15 Beware of false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Are grapes gathered from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20So then, by their fruit you will recognize them.

No church devoted to Christ would spend billions on a mall. No church. God instructs us where our treasure lies, and it is not on earth.

When the Mormons were thrown out of the U.S. and they chose the Salt Lake Valley as their desert home, there had to be a side of the church that dealt with the realities of settling a state and cities within the state. It is the business/development side of the church. It was and is still necessary as the community grew from nothing to a beautiful state. The business side of the church pays taxes and acts like a regular buisness.

When Jesus comes back to reign on earth, you will have the same configuration in his church/government.

Reformed Egyptian script has been discovered, you know that from many discussions about this subject, but yet you say it again. Why? The reason is that if you were forced to admit that Reformed Egyptian actually exists, you would have to admit that JS was a prophet that translated from plates written in Reformed Egyptian. So rather than admit that (heaven forbid) you decide to ignore what you know to be true.

Read this article to bring you up to date on Reformed Egyptian:
http://www.bmaf.org/articles/reformed_egyptian__lindsay

 

[Peter1000]

Well. let's see---whoever wrote the Torah--was told the story by God. He didn't have to translate a thing. When God wants someone to know something---He tells them in their own language---He had Moses up on the mountain for 40 days telling Him what He wanted Moses to write down. He didn't need to translate a thing, no prophet ever has.

That's fine, so are you restricting God from revealing what he wants His prophet to know to what and how Moses received the Torah? There is nothing recorded about how Moses was given the text of the Torah, so you really don't know how that happened? And even if Moses received the Torah one way, that does not mean JS could not receive the BOM text another way, both revealed by the power of God.

IOW it doesn't matter how the revelation was given by God. What matters is the revelation itself, which you reject, partly because you object to the way God revealed the BOM to JS. Not a particularly smart position to take. I allow God to reveal things in the manner that He wishes.