Have heaven and earth passed away yet?

[bugkiller]

Where do those events fall in your timeline of events? Did the whole world come to learn the law before or after it was done away with? Did the whole world keep the feast of tabernacles before or after it was done away with? Was the third temple built before or after the temple system was done away with? Did the whole world come to worship from one new moon to another and one sabbath to another before or after those were done away with?

Would you be so kind as to clear up whether it is Jesus or Luke lying?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Yes, I do believe he fulfilled it by coming to show us how it is to be lived. And I do completely agree with you on one thing that I keep questioning my self is, that if the Torah is still in effect how do you determine what is what to keep, and that is why I say if something doesnt apply to you, you cant be held accountable for it.

No one has ever had to keep all 613, as a man cant keep commands that applies to women menstrual cycles and so on and there really isnt 613 commands because many of those commands are repeated in Deuteronomy and I see the 10C's & Feast Days repeated many throughout the Torah, thats why the Great 2 Commandment can sum up the 10 C's and the rest of the Torah.


But here is an example if one is to say the Torah is still fully in effect...Does this mean we would put to death a woman on her wedding day if she is not a virgin???

Deuteronomy 22:13-21
Laws of Sexual Morality
13 “If any man takes a wife, and goes in to her, and detests her, 14 and charges her with shameful conduct, and brings a bad name on her, and says, ‘I took this woman, and when I came to her I found she was not a virgin,’ 15 then the father and mother of the young woman shall take and bring out the evidence of the young woman’s virginity to the elders of the city at the gate. 16 And the young woman’s father shall say to the elders, ‘I gave my daughter to this man as wife, and he detests her. 17 Now he has charged her with shameful conduct, saying, “I found your daughter was not a virgin,” and yet these are the evidences of my daughter’s virginity.’ And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. 18 Then the elders of that city shall take that man and punish him; 19 and they shall fine him one hundred shekels of silver and give them to the father of the young woman, because he has brought a bad name on a virgin of Israel. And she shall be his wife; he cannot divorce her all his days.

20 “But if the thing is true, and evidences of virginity are not found for the young woman, 21 then they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones, because she has done a disgraceful thing in Israel, to play the harlot in her father’s house. So you shall put away the evil from among you.




Jesus said the Torah wouldnt be abolished, but I dont see anything in the bible that says it would be put on hold either, so saying it is fully in effect would mean we arent doing ALOT of things we are supposed to and saying it is abolished would mean we are free to do as we please and we cant be judged for anything if there is no commands to keep, so there has to be a medium in there somewhere.

Jesus said concerning Him in LK 24:44. Jesus is plainly referencing Matthew's quote of Him in the Sermon on the Mount.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Actually Bob we are told to keep both...

Rev 12:17b
...the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

What is the testimony of Jesus?

Rev 19:10b
...for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

This then lets us better understand the relationship between the Law of God (Father) and the prophesies (Jesus)

Yes the life of prophesy is alive on Jesus. Or Jesus brings life to the prophesy about Him.

Matt 22:40
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

So, the change in the covenants can be broken down to this simply, that righteousness was properly understood as being witnessed to through the Law but imputed only through Christ.

Righteousness being imputed through Jesus is correct, therefore the law isn't needed. No one is righteous by or through the law as plainly stated n rom 3 and 4. If you choose to not believe Paul in this: then Abraham, Moses nor King David was righteous. That would mean they can't see God. But Moses appeared on Mt Transfiguration.

Romans 3:21
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Correct!

bugkiller

 

[Bob S]

Actually Bob we are told to keep both...

Rev 12:17b
...the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

What is the testimony of Jesus?

Rev 19:10b

...for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Hmmmm! where have I heard that before? Oh yes, And the spirit of prophesy is manifest in the writings of Ellen White. Remember learning that?

"Thus, for Seventh-day Adventists, the reference to the "commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus" (Rev 12:17; cf. Rev 20:4) suggests that God's end-time people will be characterized by keeping the commandments of God (all ten of them, including the seventh-day Sabbath) and by the testimony of Jesus, that is, the everlasting gospel given through God's true prophets (including Ellen G. White). Thus, our Fundamental Beliefs #17 states in part: "One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White." http://www.adventistsaffirm.org/art...of-prophecy-some-key-questions-and-principles

There you go , SDAs have to add a 10 in front of commandments even though the same author, John, tells us that the commandments Christians are to observe are believing and loving as Jesus asked us. 1Jn3:19-24

This then lets us better understand the relationship between the Law of God (Father) and the prophesies (Jesus)

Do you believe Jesus is God?

Matt 22:40
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

So, the change in the covenants can be broken down to this simply, that righteousness was properly understood as being witnessed to through the Law but imputed only through Christ.

Okay, that is a start. You have been so adamant that the new covenant is exactly like the old one. Now you admit change however so small.

Romans 3:21
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Christ Took Our Punishment
21 But now God has shown us a way to be made right with him without keeping the requirements of the law, as was promised in the writings of Moses and the prophets long ago. 22 We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are.

I have no idea why you used this verse to bolster your claim that we are still under the 10 commandments. It stands as a beacon telling us we have a way to become righteous without the law. This means we don't have to observe the ritual Sabbath and all the feast days. We don't have to wear tassels or observe clean and unclean. God gave us a new way, so He must not be concerned about honoring Him by keeping the ministry that brought death, the 10 commandments and doing as Jesus did under the law.

 

[Travis93]

Jesus very plainly made sure His disciples understood your misrepresented passage of Mat 5 in Luke 24:44, but you won't accept it. I even posted about the Greek text you can't refute.

bugkiller

Why did Peter still believe in the law of unclean food?
Acts 10:14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Hmmmm! where have I heard that before? Oh yes, And the spirit of prophesy is manifest in the writings of Ellen White. Remember learning that?

"Thus, for Seventh-day Adventists, the reference to the "commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus" (Rev 12:17; cf. Rev 20:4) suggests that God's end-time people will be characterized by keeping the commandments of God (all ten of them, including the seventh-day Sabbath) and by the testimony of Jesus, that is, the everlasting gospel given through God's true prophets (including Ellen G. White). Thus, our Fundamental Beliefs #17 states in part: "One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White." http://www.adventistsaffirm.org/art...of-prophecy-some-key-questions-and-principles

There you go , SDAs have to add a 10 in front of commandments even though the same author, John, tells us that the commandments Christians are to observe are believing and loving as Jesus asked us. 1Jn3:19-24


Do you believe Jesus is God?


Okay, that is a start. You have been so adamant that the new covenant is exactly like the old one. Now you admit change however so small.


Christ Took Our Punishment
21 But now God has shown us a way to be made right with him without keeping the requirements of the law, as was promised in the writings of Moses and the prophets long ago. 22 We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are.

I have no idea why you used this verse to bolster your claim that we are still under the 10 commandments. It stands as a beacon telling us we have a way to become righteous without the law. This means we don't have to observe the ritual Sabbath and all the feast days. We don't have to wear tassels or observe clean and unclean. God gave us a new way, so He must not be concerned about honoring Him by keeping the ministry that brought death, the 10 commandments and doing as Jesus did under the law.

Actually Bob, I know the EG White you are referring to regarding the Rev quote but that wasn't what I was talking about. In the passage, John distinctly mentions two persons here, otherwise it would read the commandments and testimonies of Jesus. All throughout the NT, especially the epistles, the reference to the Father and Son is this... "God the Father and Jesus the (His) Son" denoting both. So when we see "the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus" we can be sure it is referring to two. The commandments of God are the Decalogue as referenced by Jesus.

Happy Sabbath, btw.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Actually Bob, I know the EG White you are referring to regarding the Rev quote but that wasn't what I was talking about. In the passage, John distinctly mentions two persons here, otherwise it would read the commandments and testimonies of Jesus. All throughout the NT, especially the epistles, the reference to the Father and Son is this... "God the Father and Jesus the (His) Son" denoting both. So when we see "the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus" we can be sure it is referring to two. The commandments of God are the Decalogue as referenced by Jesus.

Happy Sabbath, btw.

When did the other 603 OT commandments cease being the commandments of God?

 

[Travis93]

When did the other 603 OT commandments cease being the commandments of God?

They didn't, most of them just aren't possible to perform without the temple and the Levitical priesthood, so God won't hold us accountable for those. Deuteronomy 12:13-14 says don't do sacrifices outside of the place God chooses, so everything related to that would be sin to try and do today. However, laws like wearing tassels, not wearing mixed fabrics, dietary laws, and so on have nothing to do with sacrifices and can still be practiced.

 

[bbbbbbb]

They didn't, most of them just aren't possible to perform without the temple and the Levitical priesthood, so God won't hold us accountable for those. Deuteronomy 12:13-14 says don't do sacrifices outside of the place God chooses, so everything related to that would be sin to try and do today. However, laws like wearing tassels, not wearing mixed fabrics, dietary laws, and so on have nothing to do with sacrifices and can still be practiced.

So, because of circumstances we don't need to bother ourselves with many of the commandments of God. Fair enough. When was the last year you completely rested from work?

Leviticus 25:1 The Lord then spoke to Moses at Mount Sinai, saying, 2 “Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘When you come into the land which I shall give you, then the land shall have a sabbath to the Lord. 3 Six years you shall sow your field, and six years you shall prune your vineyard and gather in its crop, 4 but during the seventh year the land shall have a sabbath rest, a sabbath to the Lord; you shall not sow your field nor prune your vineyard. 5 Your harvest’s aftergrowth you shall not reap, and your grapes of untrimmed vines you shall not gather; the land shall have a sabbatical year. 6 All of you shall have the sabbath products of the land for food; yourself, and your male and female slaves, and your hired man and your foreign resident, those who live as aliens with you. 7 Even your cattle and the animals that are in your land shall have all its crops to eat.

 

[Travis93]

So, because of circumstances we don't need to bother ourselves with many of the commandments of God. Fair enough. When was the last year you completely rested from work?

Leviticus 25:1 The Lord then spoke to Moses at Mount Sinai, saying, 2 “Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘When you come into the land which I shall give you, then the land shall have a sabbath to the Lord. 3 Six years you shall sow your field, and six years you shall prune your vineyard and gather in its crop, 4 but during the seventh year the land shall have a sabbath rest, a sabbath to the Lord; you shall not sow your field nor prune your vineyard. 5 Your harvest’s aftergrowth you shall not reap, and your grapes of untrimmed vines you shall not gather; the land shall have a sabbatical year. 6 All of you shall have the sabbath products of the land for food; yourself, and your male and female slaves, and your hired man and your foreign resident, those who live as aliens with you. 7 Even your cattle and the animals that are in your land shall have all its crops to eat.

It's a rest for the land, not the people. They could still do work other than farming. I'm not a farmer, I won't be pruning my vineyard, gathering crops, or sowing the field during those years.

 

[bbbbbbb]

It's a rest for the land, not the people. They could still do work other than farming. I'm not a farmer, I won't be pruning my vineyard, gathering crops, or sowing the field during those years.

Excellent. My land rested today and I did not reap any crops from any fields, so I guess I am good to go regarding the Sabbath.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Again, using semantics to be cute...

The word sabbath means rest but there is only one seventh day Sabbath. No other Sabbath was founded in the creation account. No other Sabbath was written on stone by God's own finger... if you choose to ignore these simple facts, it's your choice but will have eternal consequences.

 

[bugkiller]

Why did Peter still believe in the law of unclean food?
Acts 10:14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.

Don't know, but Peter was living like a gentile in Antioch.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Actually Bob, I know the EG White you are referring to regarding the Rev quote but that wasn't what I was talking about. In the passage, John distinctly mentions two persons here, otherwise it would read the commandments and testimonies of Jesus. All throughout the NT, especially the epistles, the reference to the Father and Son is this... "God the Father and Jesus the (His) Son" denoting both. So when we see "the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus" we can be sure it is referring to two. The commandments of God are the Decalogue as referenced by Jesus.

Happy Sabbath, btw.

NOPE!!!!!

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

They didn't, most of them just aren't possible to perform without the temple and the Levitical priesthood, so God won't hold us accountable for those. Deuteronomy 12:13-14 says don't do sacrifices outside of the place God chooses, so everything related to that would be sin to try and do today. However, laws like wearing tassels, not wearing mixed fabrics, dietary laws, and so on have nothing to do with sacrifices and can still be practiced.

So it only point to the fact one can't keep the law.

bugkiiller

 

[bugkiller]

It's a rest for the land, not the people. They could still do work other than farming. I'm not a farmer, I won't be pruning my vineyard, gathering crops, or sowing the field during those years.

No but you'll sure be buying them. That requires others and the land to work for you.

bugkiller

 

[Travis93]

No but you'll sure be buying them. That requires others and the land to work for you.

bugkiller

In that case I will just not buy fruits or vegetables during those years. I looked it up, and the last sabbath year was 2014-2015, so the next will be 2021-2022. Thank you for pointing it out to me so I can avoid sin, I didn't think of that.

 

[bugkiller]

In that case I will just not buy fruits or vegetables during those years. I looked it up, and the last sabbath year was 2014-2015, so the next will be 2021-2022. Thank you for pointing it out to me so I can avoid sin, I didn't think of that.

Do you unplug your refrigerator every week? Consuming electricity requires other to work for you.

bugkiller

 

[Travis93]

Do you unplug your refrigerator every week? Consuming electricity requires other to work for you.

bugkiller

Never thought of that, I guess I will from now on. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[bbbbbbb]

In that case I will just not buy fruits or vegetables during those years. I looked it up, and the last sabbath year was 2014-2015, so the next will be 2021-2022. Thank you for pointing it out to me so I can avoid sin, I didn't think of that.

And you know this with absolute certainty how? Certainly not by an unbroken chain of sabbatical years since its inauguration.