Have heaven and earth passed away yet?

[bugkiller]

I am sorry, I thought this was an open forum.

2 Thessalonians

2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

You invited met o leave my house. I was here first. BTW this is an open forum and you have no right to tell others to leave. You also called me a worker of iniquity. Such violates the rules here even when a passage is used for your purpose out of context having no bearing on the thread. Such is also off topic.

bugkiller

 

[Travis93]

Matthew 23:2-3 Saying the scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore they bid you observe, that observe and do, but do not ye after their works: for they say and do not.

Jesus told us almost at the end of his life to observe and do what teachers of the law of Moses say, but don't follow their works (the oral law additions he condemned as traditions of the elders). Why would he say this if almost right away the law was to become useless?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Matthew 23:2-3 Saying the scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore they bid you observe, that observe and do, but do not ye after their works: for they say and do not.

Jesus told us almost at the end of his life to observe and do what teachers of the law of Moses say, but don't follow their works (the oral law additions he condemned as traditions of the elders).

For a while (years? decades? maybe even a century?) the apostles and disciples did as Jesus said to do, but before Paul departed, he wrote that wolves were circling waiting for a chance to tear the flock apart .... (which happened after Paul left)..
There's apparently a lot of educated people (remember what Jesus said?)
who think they were taught the truth by men who lived like the scribes and pharisees, whether recently or long ago ...
i.e.
instead of trusting God's Word as Faithful and True,
instead of obeying Jesus' Instruction ,
they flipped it over and the 'leaven of the scribes and pharisees'
became instilled in them instead of
God's Word.

 

[Frisky Wren]

To the OP question. No, they haven't. There's a passage in 1st John that you're no doubt familiar with. Test every spirit.
It's Christianity after all.
What did Christ say? There you have it.

I would love to make statements, but you don't, won't or can't respond to them. So why not ask questions to someone who knows everything and is always correct in their eyes?

bugkiller

That's a lofty self description. I'm thinking you're not an exterminator.

Sure, Hebrews 7:12 is true when taken in context. Not when thrown as a single verse into this discussion.

 

[Bob S]

Matthew 23:2-3 Saying the scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore they bid you observe, that observe and do, but do not ye after their works: for they say and do not.

Jesus told us almost at the end of his life to observe and do what teachers of the law of Moses say, but don't follow their works (the oral law additions he condemned as traditions of the elders). Why would he say this if almost right away the law was to become useless?

It doesn't matter if Jesus had said these things the day He was crucified. He was still under Torah and those He was talking to were still under Torah. Not one jot nor one tittle would pass from the law until all was fulfilled. It was not fulfilled until Jesus gave up His last breath. He came to fulfill the law, step up all you who can deny that He did just that.

 

[Travis93]

It doesn't matter if Jesus had said these things the day He was crucified. He was still under Torah and those He was talking to were still under Torah. Not one jot nor one tittle would pass from the law until all was fulfilled. It was not fulfilled until Jesus gave up His last breath. He came to fulfill the law, step up all you who can deny that He did just that.

Matthew 28:19-20 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
In the great commission it says to teach people everything Jesus had commanded during his ministry, and one of those things was to hearken unto Torah teachers as I quoted before.
Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all the nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
In Luke's version he says preach repentance. If the law is done away with, what sin should people repent of?

 

[Bob S]

Matthew 28:19-20 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
In the great commission it says to teach people everything Jesus had commanded during his ministry, and one of those things was to hearken unto Torah teachers as I quoted before.
Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all the nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
In Luke's version he says preach repentance. If the law is done away with, what sin should people repent of?

Jesus commanded Jews to observe Torah until all was accomplished. He commanded all His followers to keep His command Jn 15:9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command.

There Jesus was telling us that we are to keep His command. He kept His Father's commands(Torah) and we are to keep Jesus command "love".

 

[Travis93]

Jesus commanded Jews to observe Torah until all was accomplished. He commanded all His followers to keep His command Jn 15:9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command.

There Jesus was telling us that we are to keep His command. He kept His Father's commands(Torah) and we are to keep Jesus command "love".

Love is not mutually exclusive with the law, they are one in the same.
1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments; and his commandments are not grievous.

 

[SAAN]

The law teaches you how to Love God and Love one another, that is why they were said to be a sum of the laws that all the laws and prophets hung on, not a abolishment for all the other laws. Like it has been said before not all laws apply to everyone.

 

[Bob S]

The law teaches you how to Love God and Love one another, that is why they were said to be a sum of the laws that all the laws and prophets hung on, not a abolishment for all the other laws. Like it has been said before not all laws apply to everyone.

Hi Saan, we know the law of loving others as Jesus loves us applies. As to the 613 laws of the Torah who is the one who gets to choose which ones apply. Jesus said nothing can be removed from Torah until all is accomplished. Are you the one who will step up to the plate and deny that Jesus fulfilled the Torah?

 

[Bob S]

Love is not mutually exclusive with the law, they are one in the same.
1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments; and his commandments are not grievous.

Travis, remember where I pointed you and all the rest of the posters and lurkers to find out what "His commandments are?

Are you committed to tell us John is a liar where he told us what the commands for Christians are?

jN15:9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command.

1Jn3:19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

 

[Travis93]

All hasn't been accomplished though, Jesus didn't restore Israel yet, there's still wars, death, pain, and so on. We obviously aren't living in the new heaven and earth.
Does everyone in the world know God, so we don't have to teach them? Jeremiah 31:34
Has the city been rebuilt according to Jeremiah 31:38-39?
The city will never be destroyed according to Jeremiah 31:40, so it can't have happened yet.
When did the temple described in Ezekiel 40:1-48:35 get built? See also Zechariah 6:12-13
When did the whole world keep the feast of tabernacles in Jerusalem? Zechariah 14:16-19
When did the whole world come to learn the law in Jerusalem as in Isaiah 2:2-3 and Micah 4:2-3?
When did the whole world worship from one sabbath to another like Isaiah 66:23?
Do animals get along without killing each other like Isaiah 11:6-9 says?

 

[Bob S]

Thank you Travis for all the quotes however I didn't comment that all the things of this world have come to pass, I wrote that the LAW(Torah) has bee accomplished(fulfilled).

 

[Travis93]

Thank you Travis for all the quotes however I didn't comment that all the things of this world have come to pass, I wrote that the LAW(Torah) has bee accomplished(fulfilled).

Where do those events fall in your timeline of events? Did the whole world come to learn the law before or after it was done away with? Did the whole world keep the feast of tabernacles before or after it was done away with? Was the third temple built before or after the temple system was done away with? Did the whole world come to worship from one new moon to another and one sabbath to another before or after those were done away with?

 

[SAAN]

Hi Saan, we know the law of loving others as Jesus loves us applies. As to the 613 laws of the Torah who is the one who gets to choose which ones apply. Jesus said nothing can be removed from Torah until all is accomplished. Are you the one who will step up to the plate and deny that Jesus fulfilled the Torah?

Yes, I do believe he fulfilled it by coming to show us how it is to be lived. And I do completely agree with you on one thing that I keep questioning my self is, that if the Torah is still in effect how do you determine what is what to keep, and that is why I say if something doesnt apply to you, you cant be held accountable for it.

No one has ever had to keep all 613, as a man cant keep commands that applies to women menstrual cycles and so on and there really isnt 613 commands because many of those commands are repeated in Deuteronomy and I see the 10C's & Feast Days repeated many throughout the Torah, thats why the Great 2 Commandment can sum up the 10 C's and the rest of the Torah.


But here is an example if one is to say the Torah is still fully in effect...Does this mean we would put to death a woman on her wedding day if she is not a virgin???

Deuteronomy 22:13-21
Laws of Sexual Morality
13 “If any man takes a wife, and goes in to her, and detests her, 14 and charges her with shameful conduct, and brings a bad name on her, and says, ‘I took this woman, and when I came to her I found she was not a virgin,’ 15 then the father and mother of the young woman shall take and bring out the evidence of the young woman’s virginity to the elders of the city at the gate. 16 And the young woman’s father shall say to the elders, ‘I gave my daughter to this man as wife, and he detests her. 17 Now he has charged her with shameful conduct, saying, “I found your daughter was not a virgin,” and yet these are the evidences of my daughter’s virginity.’ And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. 18 Then the elders of that city shall take that man and punish him; 19 and they shall fine him one hundred shekels of silver and give them to the father of the young woman, because he has brought a bad name on a virgin of Israel. And she shall be his wife; he cannot divorce her all his days.

20 “But if the thing is true, and evidences of virginity are not found for the young woman, 21 then they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones, because she has done a disgraceful thing in Israel, to play the harlot in her father’s house. So you shall put away the evil from among you.




Jesus said the Torah wouldnt be abolished, but I dont see anything in the bible that says it would be put on hold either, so saying it is fully in effect would mean we arent doing ALOT of things we are supposed to and saying it is abolished would mean we are free to do as we please and we cant be judged for anything if there is no commands to keep, so there has to be a medium in there somewhere.

 

[Bob S]

Yes, I do believe he fulfilled it by coming to show us how it is to be lived. And I do completely agree with you on one thing that I keep questioning my self is, that if the Torah is still in effect how do you determine what is what to keep, and that is why I say if something doesnt apply to you, you cant be held accountable for it.

No one has ever had to keep all 613, as a man cant keep commands that applies to women menstrual cycles and so on and there really isnt 613 commands because many of those commands are repeated in Deuteronomy and I see the 10C's & Feast Days repeated many throughout the Torah, thats why the Great 2 Commandment can sum up the 10 C's and the rest of the Torah.

Jesus said the Torah wouldnt be abolished, but I dont see anything in the bible that says it would be put on hold either, so saying it is fully in effect would mean we arent doing ALOT of things we are supposed to and saying it is abolished would mean we are free to do as we please and we cant be judged for anything if there is no commands to keep, so there has to be a medium in there somewhere.

Jesus said Torah would not be fulfilled until all He came to do was fulfilled by Him. Did Jesus leave us without law and order? Absolutely not, He gave us the new command to love as He loves. Saan, you have to admit that covers all morality. It covers all possible sins. I keep reiterating that the rituals of Torah were specific to Israel. Gentiles were not sinning because they didn't observe them. Christians are not sinning because we do not observe them. Christians have never been given a command to observe the feast days for example. Who could Paul make it any more clear? How could John make it anymore clear?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

There Jesus was telling us that we are to keep His command. He kept His Father's commands(Torah) and we are to keep Jesus command "love".

Actually Bob we are told to keep both...

Rev 12:17b
...the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

What is the testimony of Jesus?

Rev 19:10b
...for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

This then lets us better understand the relationship between the Law of God (Father) and the prophesies (Jesus)

Matt 22:40
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

So, the change in the covenants can be broken down to this simply, that righteousness was properly understood as being witnessed to through the Law but imputed only through Christ.

Romans 3:21
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

 

[bugkiller]

To the OP question. No, they haven't. There's a passage in 1st John that you're no doubt familiar with. Test every spirit.
It's Christianity after all.
What did Christ say? There you have it.



That's a lofty self description. I'm thinking you're not an exterminator.

Sure, Hebrews 7:12 is true when taken in context. Not when thrown as a single verse into this discussion.

What do you mean not taken in context? did I miss something? I asked this question often to people who don't understand or refuse to accept the statement of Mat 5:17-18 this thread is based on. If the law is still valid Jesus is a sinner for assuming the priesthood because He isn't from the tribe of Levi and it would prove Hebrews isn't a reliable witness. No law thumper accepts the full Bible starting in Genesis. My query has context to the person I asked it.

The language in your post indicates to me you're very familiar with me. I think your nothing but a sock.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Love is not mutually exclusive with the law, they are one in the same.
1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments; and his commandments are not grievous.

But you and John are talking about different commandments.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

All hasn't been accomplished though, Jesus didn't restore Israel yet, there's still wars, death, pain, and so on. We obviously aren't living in the new heaven and earth.
Does everyone in the world know God, so we don't have to teach them? Jeremiah 31:34
Has the city been rebuilt according to Jeremiah 31:38-39?
The city will never be destroyed according to Jeremiah 31:40, so it can't have happened yet.
When did the temple described in Ezekiel 40:1-48:35 get built? See also Zechariah 6:12-13
When did the whole world keep the feast of tabernacles in Jerusalem? Zechariah 14:16-19
When did the whole world come to learn the law in Jerusalem as in Isaiah 2:2-3 and Micah 4:2-3?
When did the whole world worship from one sabbath to another like Isaiah 66:23?
Do animals get along without killing each other like Isaiah 11:6-9 says?

Jesus very plainly made sure His disciples understood your misrepresented passage of Mat 5 in Luke 24:44, but you won't accept it. I even posted about the Greek text you can't refute.

bugkiller