Why did Jesus Leave?

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

You missed the point entirely.

Maybe I used the wrong smiley. I was being facetious in response to a trite & condescending post

 

[amariselle]

I think your complaint is noted, but please understand that I'm not beginning this thread to deconvert anyone.

My set of beliefs are not better described as unbelief in God, but rather as a pending non-decision until I have some evidence or answers that I find satisfactory or plausible. That's generally the basis for any of our decisions about certain beliefs.

Likewise, I think it should be noted that I once was a believer for no other reason than a typical process that a believer goes through. For me it was educational experience at a young age, which I've progressed to college and seminary experience, and I've actually was preparing my life for some religious position in one way or another.

But, the higher my education on the subject matter got, the more it became obvious that there's a great deal of misrepresentation and obscurantism when it comes to explaining certain basics of Christian belief and what these actually translate in the real life.

Hence, the questions that I've had for a while never really been answered in a manner that would seem plausible.

For example, I keep asking people to share with me the stories about how Holy Spirit works exactly in their lives and how they know it's the Holy Spirit... and what I get is:

1) I get a verse pop in my head that helps me to guide through a situation.
2) I have a situation that goes my way after I pray
3) I get a feeling, or I've experienced some health recovery

Essentially, it doesn't really seem like anything other than projection of a belief system on a reality that's otherwise not much different form regular physical reality of non-belief.

In short, it seems to be rather an interpretation of events, rather than the reality of the events. Even in context of this forum, the reasons as to why Jesus left seem to be excuses rather than something worth considering.

To sum up:

1) People say that if he didn't leave then we wouldn't have faith:

I keep asking as to why faith is better than the real thing, and the answers seem to be to the likes of "we need to have faith in everything". But that's simply false. Faith is not a reliable means of making important decisions. We make decisions based on understanding of consequences, and such is a framework of our knowledge and not faith.

2) People give typical reasons given by Biblical writers

But none of these actually answer the question as to why any of these are better than the presence of Jesus on Earth... or at least visiting it in some visible manner to check back on people and offer some direction. Again, I don't see a 2000 year old account of what happened is viable enough to guide complexities of modern life. Biblical writers would think that a radio was a demon possessed box. Translating their cultural and scientific understanding to our day is obscene.

Hence, IT SEEMS LIKE, people write narrative and then write in excuses as to why Jesus is missing from reality, and then projecting interpretations that ascribe positive developments to some workings of Jesus or Holy Spirit without any viable means to show as to how these are any different from regular occurrences of these events, or giving any viable reason as to how they can even tell it was Jesus or Holy Spirit responsible.

The bottom line isn't that there are attempts to answer these questions, but that the answers given are not grounded in any viable reality beyond projecting one's own belief.

My suggestion is to start with non-belief and evaluate any given event described from that perspective. That's the honest way of doing it, and I think that charge of dishonesty shouldn't be pointed in my direction in this case.

Who said you were being dishonest? I didn't in any case.

However, I did address you original questions which you asked in the OP. (If you go back you will see my post).

And I have also tried repeatedly to remind others we should get back on topic.

 

[amariselle]

I suspect you're misinterpreting motives; I think the majority of atheists on these forums are well aware that mockery and ridicule are not effective ways to change someone's beliefs, but generally have the opposite effect.

I think I was specifically referring to things I have actually seen here.

 

[FireDragon76]

Agreed, Amariselle. That's why it's always a good idea not to allow yourself to be jumped by several such people here or to allow them to get away with using the "Philosophy" forum as an Atheist safe house (as can be witnessed in post 345).

Another thing to keep in mind, it's not your job to convince people that Christianity is true in some "objective" way, only to share what you yourself know. Remember, faith is a gift, and there are spiritual forces in at work in the world. People cannot always reason their way into faith, for one reason or another.

 

[devolved]

You missed the point entirely. Jesus ascended so that we could go on being human beings, so that we could become like him by faith. If he hung around, there would be little reason to do so. His work on Earth was done and finished, and he handed it off to his discpiles to whom he would give the Holy Spirit.

Do you understand the difference between What questions and Why questions?

I'm fully aware of the What Happened type of narrative. My question was concerning the Why narrative.

Why do you think that we couldn't go on being human beings without his ascension?
Why do we must rely on faith, when knowledge is clearly a more reliable path?

 

[FireDragon76]

Because Jesus is primarily interested in us acquiring virtues, and faith is more important a virtue than amassing facts about him, as revealed in his own life. Jesus often spoke about faith and implied that it was a powerful force, and he praised those with great faith, in some cases esteeming them more than his own people.

 

[amariselle]

Where did I say that I didn't want to "hear from Christians"? For someone who is so concerned about words being twisted, you sure do a lot of that yourself.

I'm not the one telling people how they feel.

Oh really? How do you know that? Your criterion for "honest" seems to be "accepts my answers as definitive and doesn't question them."

Wrong.

Are you kidding? You were appalled that someone would say that Jesus was "nothing special," on a Christian forum no less! It was shocking to you.

Did I use that word? Did I say I was "appalled"? Did I say I was "shocked"? You're inferences are unfounded and bizarre.

Why should you? You didn't bother to answer that.

I don't have to answer your rhetorical question in order to see something a certain way.

 

[devolved]

Another thing to keep in mind, it's not your job to convince people that Christianity is true in some "objective" way, only to share what you yourself know. Remember, faith is a gift, and there are spiritual forces in at work in the world. People cannot always reason their way into faith, for one reason or another.

When you are saying that you can't reason your way into faith... you are essentially saying that faith is unreasonable.

 

[devolved]

Because Jesus is primarily interested in us acquiring virtues, and faith is more important a virtue than amassing facts about him, as revealed in his own life. Jesus often spoke about faith and implied that it was a powerful force, and he praised those with great faith, in some cases esteeming them more than his own people.

What makes faith virtuous?

 

[FireDragon76]

What makes faith virtuous?

What makes cynicism virtuous?

 

[FireDragon76]

When you are saying that you can't reason your way into faith... you are essentially saying that faith is unreasonable.

Faith comes from God, not through human reason. That doesn't mean it is "unreasonable" necessarily.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

What makes cynicism virtuous?

What cynicism?

 

[devolved]

What makes cynicism virtuous?

I don't think cynicism is virtuous, and that's not really what I'm doing here. I'm asking a valid question. You proposed that faith is a virtue, especially when I've asked as to what would make faith better than knowledge. You are shifting to something entirely different.

It's a valid question. You do realize that we can have faith in all wrong things? Virtues generally lead us to better qualities and behavior. Faith is merely an assertion based on "gut feeling" type of trust that's supported by loose evidence.

So, the question remains - what makes faith a virtue? Why would it be better than knowledge?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I think I was specifically referring to things I have actually seen here.

Yes, but you seem to see ridicule in everything, so...

 

[devolved]

Faith comes from God, not through human reason. That doesn't mean it is "unreasonable" necessarily.

What do you mean by that? You are a human, right?

 

[FireDragon76]

What do you mean by that? You are a human, right?

Faith illuminates human reason.

 

[FireDragon76]

What cynicism?

Don't play coy. "To those who do not believe in Him, no evidence will suffice". Jesus could appear in the sky tomorrow and you'ld find some reason to dismiss what you saw as the planet Venus.

 

[devolved]

Faith illuminates human reason.

Again, try to avoid the "mystic speech", because it doesn't actually explain or answer whatever you think it does.

1) We have a mechanism by which we reason, which is basically ability of our mind to think and understand and tell false thing from correct things. That's what reason is.

2) All of us have to rely on reason to get us through the day. We find unreasonable things to be something that's undesirable in our life.

3) The only thing that would illuminate reason are facts that can aid to provide demonstrations of viable causes and explanations of any give process.

What you are attempting to say here is that lack of reason "illuminates" human reason. How?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Don't play coy. "To those who do not believe in Him, no evidence will suffice". Jesus could appear in the sky tomorrow and you'ld find some reason to dismiss what you saw as the planet Venus.

Don't pretend to know what I would or wouldn't say in response to such an event. I find it interesting though that, presumably, you would simply assume that the entity in the sky was Jesus. You wouldn't at all wonder how you know that to be true.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Faith illuminates human reason.

In what way?