Rapture timing

[Revealing Times]

"The Rapture is clearly shown in the Feasts, and the timing is shown, but as Jesus said in Matthew 13, it is not given to the average person to know the secrets of God, some will see but will not understand. Daniel and Leviticus shows in full he Raptures timing"

The "timing" of the Lord's next intervention is not shown in the Feasts .... this is a man made idea

.... and you added "average" .... no one can know this secret for He has not revealed

Neither does Daniel or any scripture reveal

You are creating a contradiction against the fact that no one can know

You just can't see it, I can't change that. I paraphrase instead of posting scriptures in full. The average man means just that in the fact that there be few that find the way, (the average man will not hear the truth, even when he hears it) but that special man of God will hear it, and understand it. Being a son of God is special, unique, not average. Of course this goes against your beliefs, so it can't be right. Touche. More power to you.

 

[Straightshot]

"You just can't see it"

Neither can you ..... you have fabricated a ruse because the Lord clearly and specifically tells that it is not for you to know ..... and you can't know [Acts 1:6-7]

What I can see is what you are doing

The things that you use for your story like the feast days are not even in operation during the Lord's dispensation of grace .... these things will not be re-instituted until the Lord's coming millennial kingdom upon the earth when He will rule the earth from His nation of Israel

 

[JLB777]

I'm arguing against your claim that Zechariah 14 is the Olivet Discourse. I've given you ample time to prove this but so far you've just arguing via straw man.

It's very disrespectful of you to call our Lord Jesus Christ a "straw-man", since I have stated that it was Christ that was speaking in both Zechariah and Matthew 24, about His Coming.

Peter teaches us it was Christ who spoke through the OT prophets.

10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11


The Lord Jesus Christ spoke these words through the mouth of Zechariah about His Coming.

“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Zechariah 12:10

again

Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;... Zechariah 14:1-2

again

And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives... Zechariah 14:4


The Context of Zechariah 14 is irrefutable, and is about the coming of the Lord.

The Context about Matthew 24 is irrefutable, and is about the coming of the Lord.


3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” 4 And Jesus answered and said to them:
Matthew 24:3-4


29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31


Matthew 24 and Zechariah 14 is Jesus Christ Himself speaking about His Coming.



JLB

 

[JLB777]

We're debating over Zechariah 14 as I'm refuting your foolish notion of promoting Zechariah 14 as the Olivet Discourse.

Both the Olivet Discourse and Zechariah 14 is about His Coming.


Case Closed.



JLB

 

[Straightshot]

"it was Christ that was speaking in both Zechariah and Matthew 24, about His Coming."


Of course it was .... He is the Author of all prophecy .... the Alpha and Omega [2 Peter 1:16-21]

 

[Revealing Times]

"You just can't see it"

Neither can you ..... you have fabricated a ruse because the Lord clearly and specifically tells that it is not for you to know ..... and you can't know [Acts 1:6-7]

What I can see is what you are doing

The things that you use for your story like the feast days are not even in operation during the Lord's dispensation of grace .... these things will not be re-instituted until the Lord's coming millennial kingdom upon the earth when He will rule the earth from His nation of Israel

Pentecost is now.

 

[Hank77]

You are the one that constricted my original statement down to exclude the rest of the Olivet discourse.

I said Zechariah 14 is about the coming of the Lord, which Jesus also described in the Olivet Discourse.

Jesus is the one speaking in both the Olivet Discourse as well as Zechariah 14, in which the context begins in Zechariah 12.

Here, maybe this verse will help you understand -

10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:10



Case Closed.



JLB

Zechariah 12:10 fulfilled.....On Pentecost - the Spirit of grace and supplication was poured out on the house of David.

Act 2:5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation of those under the heaven,
........
Act 2:36 assuredly, therefore, let all the house of Israel know, that both Lord and Christ did God make him--this Jesus whom ye did crucify.'

Act 2:37 And having heard, they were pricked to the heart; they say also to Peter, and to the rest of the apostles, `What shall we do, men, brethren?'

 

[Straightshot]

"Zechariah 12:10 fulfilled.....On Pentecost - the Spirit of grace and supplication was poured out on the house of David."

This is a future prophecy about Israel ..... and has nothing to do with today's church

This thread is about the timing of the Lord's harpazo action for His true ecclesia .... no one can know the dating of this event

Once over in a split second, He will then bring His unprecedented wrath upon an unbelieving world including an intransigent Israel

He will bring a believing remnant of Israel under His covenant [Ezekiel 20:34-44] and these will enter and populate His millennial kingdom upon the earth .... this is what Zechariah 12; 13; and 14 present

 

[Riberra]

This doesn't prove your foolish nonsense of the number of Christian martyred souls kept under the altar since the opening of the 5th seal mentioned in Revelation 6:9-11.

I said I would answer you if you can tell me the number of Christian martyred souls kept under the altar since the opening of the 5th seal mentioned in Revelation 6:9-11.

I've been waiting for your answer for over a month. How much time do you need to crunch a few numbers?

Why does it matters so much for you to know the precise number of the souls of the first Christians martyrs which have been slain for their testimony of Jesus that John saw under the altar of God in Heaven?

Than you tried to weasel yourself out of a jam calling me a joker and say you're leaving. Well your word sure didn't live up to expectation.

I have never said that i was leaving .I have said that talking with you is a total waste of time...i have not changed my mind about that point.

Riberra, forget about weapons of modern warfare like helicopters, jets, tanks, rockets, missiles and nuclear weapons, you must think John saw the next world war involving bows and arrows, spears, shields and catapults, and 1/3 of the world's population will be kill by these weapons, am I right?

You are jumping from discussing about the (locusts) which will not kill
but will cause a very suffering pain upon the unbelievers during 5 months ...and you blend it with the (horsemen)of Revelation 9 who will kill 1/3 of humanity.

Riberra, watch out for the arrow flying your way......no flesh would be saved.

You should learn the difference between no flesh would be saved (Salvation) if they take the mark and worship the AC during the 42 months reign of the AC/Beast versus no flesh would be alive.

 

[ebedmelech]

While there is the non-physical resurrection of initial salvation (e.g. Ephesians 2:5-6), note that the 1st resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 will be physical (cf. Romans 8:23). For Revelation 20:5 says "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished", meaning that the 1st resurrection will be the same, physical type of resurrection as will occur sometime after the 1,000 years (Revelation 20:7-15). For not every dead person is going to be non-physically resurrected in the sense of becoming saved (Revelation 20:15), and Revelation 20:5 means that the rest of the dead (i.e. all the non-church dead of all times) will be resurrected in the same manner that the church will be resurrected in Revelation 20:4-6, but the rest of the dead won't be resurrected until sometime after the 1,000 years.

!. Romans 8:23 is referring to the renewal of all things and our desire in our earthly bodies to receive our immortal bodies, so this is the resurrection. It's confirms what I originally said.

2. Since Jesus received ALL AUTHORITY upon His resurrection (Matthew 28:18), and has been reigning since, you have a problem with the 1000 years. The 1000 years are symbolic, which Peter affirms when he says a day with the Lord IS LIKE a 1000 years and a 1000 years LIKE one day. Just as God owns the cattle ON A THOUSAND HILLS...or as God is faithful to the THOUSANDTH generation. Note how 1000 is used to be all inclusive. The 1000 year reign began when Jesus was raised and the Father gave Him ALL AUTHORITY in heaven and on earth.

3 The rest of the dead are spiritually dead but they also die physically. When they are raised for judgment they will be physically alive but remain spiritually dead as Ephesians 2 makes the case. If one is spiritually dead they are "the rest of the dead".

Also, the 1st resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 will be physical because it won't occur until Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), and the resurrection of the church which will occur at Jesus' 2nd coming will be a physical resurrection, just like Jesus' physical resurrection on the 3rd day after his death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-58, Philippians 3:20-21, Romans 8:23-25; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18).

No. Once again who are the rest of the dead? Think about that. Those who are not dead are reigning with Christ, therefore since Christ received the reign upon His resurrection...they came to life IN CHRIST from salvation. Before that they were "dead in trespasses and sins" as all are before they come to Christ.

Regarding "the tribulation that happened 64-70 AD", do you hold to the partial preterist view that the tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 19 was fulfilled at that time?

Indeed I do.

If so, note that just as the highly detailed tribulation events of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 find no historical fulfillment, so the tribulation events of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 find no historical fulfillment. For example, Luke 21:24 refers to the same future treading down of Jerusalem by the Gentiles as Revelation 11:2b, during the Antichrist's future, literal 42-month worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), the details of which time period are shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13). The myriad details of these chapters have never been fulfilled. Similarly, Jesus' 2nd coming and the church's gathering together (rapture) in Matthew 24:30-31 (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) have never been fulfilled, but must occur "immediately after" the future tribulation of Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6).

This is how I understand it...Jerusalem is being tread under by the Gentiles. Which Jerusalem is it...the heavenly Jerusalem or the earthly Jerusalem? Please note that according to Luke 21:

1. Jerusalem is surrounded by armies.

2. The people of Israel are dispersed among the nations

3. Jerusalem is trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the TIME of the Gentiles are fulfilled. This refers to Gentiles being grafted into the Israel of God.

Regarding "the destruction of the temple", note that the end of the 2nd temple building (also called Herod's temple building) in 70 AD didn't fulfill Matthew 24:2. For the stones of the 2nd temple's Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall) still stand today one on top of the other, just as they did when Jesus spoke that prophecy. Matthew 24:2 included the Wailing Wall, for Matthew 24:2 wasn't referring only to the single, 2nd temple building which stood in the center of the Temple Mount and which contained the holy place and the most holy place, but was referring to "all these things", all the plural "buildings"/structures/oikodome (G3619) of the entire 2nd temple complex (Matthew 24:1). Indeed, Matthew 24:2 could even have been spoken just to the north and west of the Wailing Wall. For it was spoken just after Jesus had departed from the temple complex (Matthew 24:1), and one of the main temple complex exits (called Wilson's Arch and bridge by archaeologists) was just to the north of the Wailing Wall, and at the same level as the top of the Temple Mount (see the temple-complex map-insert in the December, 2008 issue of National Geographic magazine).

Also, in Matthew 24:2, the "here" can include not just the entire 2nd temple complex, but every structure throughout Jerusalem. For the similar statement in Luke 19:44 applied to the whole city (Luke 19:41-44). Matthew 24:2 and Luke 19:44 could be fulfilled at the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before and at Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

At the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the Antichrist (Daniel 11:45) and the world's armies will pillage Jerusalem right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). And at the 2nd coming, there will be tremendous earth changes in the vicinity of Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-5). These events could result in all of Jerusalem's structures, including the 3rd temple (which will be built) and the Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall), being broken down so that not one stone will be left on another (Luke 19:44, Matthew 24:2). Then the returned Jesus (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12) will rebuild Jerusalem and make it the capital of the world (Zechariah 14:8-19, Micah 4:1-4). He will also build a 4th temple there (Zechariah 14:20-21, Zechariah 6:12-13). It will serve a similar function for the church during the future millennium (of Revelation 20:4-6) as the 2nd temple served for the church in the 1st century AD (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17), and as the temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19) serves for those in heaven (Revelation 7:15).

I've done all this with you before. I'm not going to do it again. We'll know the true view because there's no doubt Jesus is returning, and someone's view won't happen.

 

[ebedmelech]

Ebedmelech said:

That's a long story...but still the rapture is going to happen concurrent with the resurrection.

I agree with your above statement as written, but maybe you should define your terms before I commit to that.

Furthermore the first resurrection is when you got saved...John 11:25-27, Romans 6: 1-11, Ephesians 2:1-10 and Colossians 2:13-15.

None of the above passages rule out a physical resurrection. Jesus spoke of a literal, physical resurrection of the body from the grave for both the righteous as well as the wicked. John 5:28-29 What He referred to cannot be a spiritual resurrection, which can be likened to a born again experience, but does not rule out the physical resurrection. The wicked are already dead in their sins there is no spiritual experience that can be likened to a resurrection for them . They will physically be resurrected from the dead one day just as Jesus said, as well as all of the righteous dead.

Salvation as the first resurrection does not line up with Revelation 20:5 or with 1 Corinthians 15:23-24.

Revelation 19 is Jesus returning to resurrect and judge the world. He says it four times in John 6...and Jesus NEVER spoke about a pre-trib rapture.

What type of resurrection are you referring to here? Agree Jesus never spoke of a pre-trib rapture nor did Paul or anyone else in scripture.

I think it's pretty clear Postvieww. I've been kind of busy with work (which kept me from logging on)...but I think it's pretty clear that the verses I gave you refer to ONLY the physical resurrection with the exception of Luke 11:25-26 ...but even there look how carefully Jesus put it:
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”

Do you get what Jesus is saying there? I ask because many times I read the verse before I really caught what it's saying.

One has to come in life in Christ FIRST if they're going to live forever. That is the spiritual resurrection which means EVEN IF WE DIE...WE LIVE.

Just as there are two deaths which are physical and spiritual there are two resurrections (physical and spiritual). The only difference is if one is in Christ they die ONCE. Those without Christ die TWICE...(for the most part). Just as not all Christians will die because some will be alive when Christ returns, not all of the spiritually dead will die twice as some will be alive when Christ returns.

Wikipedia: Josephus claims that 1.1 million people were killed during the siege, of which a majority were Jewish, and that 97,000 were captured and enslaved, including Simon bar Giora and John of Giscala.[12] His figures are rejected as impossible by modern scholarship, since around the time about a million people lived in Palestine, probably about half of them were Jews, and sizable Jewish populations remained in the area after the war was over, even in the hard-hit region of Judea.[13]

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Even if Josephus’s numbers are correct the destruction of Jerusalem does not fulfill Revelation 7:9 in anyway.

The problem comes here when many fail to realize Revelation is not chronological. Revelation 7:9 is John's vision of ALL OF THE REDEEMED OF GOD. That's what the 144,000 represents. John HEARD them numbered (he didn't see anything).
It was when John turned SEE the great multitude which is from every nation. That's what the 144,000 is. That number INCLUDES those who were martyred, they are a special group John saw that came out of the great tribulation. All of the 144,000 did not go through it.

 

[Bible2+]

Revealing Times said in post 419:

The Rapture is clearly shown in the Feasts . . .

Note that all the Old Covenant feasts can have a New Covenant fulfillment without requiring a pre-tribulation rapture.

For Christ's death was the fulfillment of the Passover (Leviticus 23:5; 1 Corinthians 5:7b), and his resurrection was the fulfillment of the firstfruits of Leviticus 23:10 (1 Corinthians 15:20). The general salvation of the church could be a subsequent fulfillment of the firstfruits of Leviticus 23:10 (James 1:18). And the 144,000 part of the church could be a subsequent fulfillment of the firstfruits presented to the Lord (Leviticus 23:10b-11, Revelation 14:4b).

The 50 days, firstfruits, and 2 loaves of Leviticus 23:16-17 could have been fulfilled at the Pentecost in Acts 2 and subsequently, when the firstfruits of the Spirit (Romans 8:23) were poured out on (one loaf) the Jews in the church (Acts 2:14-18) and then on (another loaf) the Gentiles in the church (Acts 10:45b).

The feast of trumpets of Leviticus 23:24 could be fulfilled at the 2nd coming, when the 2nd-coming trumpet will sound (Matthew 24:30-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 1 Corinthians 15:52) after the 7 trumpets of the tribulation have sounded (Revelation 8:2).

The day of atonement of Leviticus 23:27-28 could be fulfilled when Christ saves all the elect unbelieving Jews alive at the 2nd coming (Romans 11:26-28, Zechariah 12:10-14).

The feast of tabernacles of Leviticus 23:34 could be fulfilled at the marriage feast (Revelation 19:9) which will be on the earth after the 2nd coming (Isaiah 25:6-9). Paul quotes from Isaiah 25:8 in 1 Corinthians 15:54b, showing that the earthly feast of Isaiah 25:6-9 will be connected with the resurrection of the church at the 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23, Revelation 20:4-6).

Revealing Times said in post 419:

The Church is called Home and Israel's clock starts again........then the atonement of Israel after the JUDGMENTS or ANNOUNCEMENTS, then the feast of Tabernacle, or Israel dwelling with God.

Regarding "the JUDGMENTS", note that nothing requires that the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will be God's judgments or wrath, or that any part of the tribulation that will be his judgment or wrath will be directed against any of the saved people (1 Thessalonians 5:9) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Most of the tribulation could be Satan's wrath working through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on the earth, like when Satan was allowed to work through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on righteous Job (Job 1:12-20), against whom God had no wrath.

The tribulation's first 5 seals (Revelation 6:1-11) won't be God's judgment or wrath, for after the first 4 seals, the martyrs of the 5th seal ask God when he is going to bring his judgment against the world (Revelation 6:10). And the killing of even more martyrs, which the 5th seal foretells will happen sometime after the 5th seal (Revelation 6:11), won't be God's wrath against those martyrs. So Jesus' unsealing of the seals (Revelation 6), the tribulation's 1st stage, doesn't mean that the events unsealed will be God's judgment or wrath, but that they will be permitted by God to happen at that time.

The tribulation's 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) will happen sometime before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12), as in only a few years before. The day of the Lord itself won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't happen until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Similarly, the day of the Lord's wrath (Psalms 110:5) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21).

So the people quoted at the 6th seal (Revelation 6:17), during only the 1st stage of the tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when Job said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the 6th seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. And just as the writer of the book of Job didn't go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11, and just as the apostles John and Matthew didn't go out of their way to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in John 7:12b and Matthew 27:63a, so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quoted in Revelation 6:17.

After the tribulation's 6th seal will occur its 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come its 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). Note that nothing requires that any of the first 6 trumpets' events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will be God's wrath. The 5th trumpet's events will be the work of strange locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-10), led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11). And the 6th trumpet's events to the end of Revelation 9 will be the work of weird horse-like beings led by 4 fallen angels previously bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the first 6 trumpets, this could be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy 1/3 of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause 1/3 of the angels (i.e. his fallen angels) to be cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:4,9).

Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will happen before the Antichrist's (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's beast's) future, literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). And the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 could be used by Satan to help prepare the world to welcome that reign. For what Satan could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then claim that the destruction isn't from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make it suffer, while he (Satan, as "Lucifer") only wants the best for mankind (cf. Mark 8:33b). In this way, he could deceive the world into turning away from YHWH and instead worshipping him (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

After the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year reign (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). The vials will then be poured out on the Antichrist's followers as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Revelation 16:2), and for their killing of people in the church (Revelation 16:6-7, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, people in the church will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus himself isn't the Christ (1 John 2:22), and that Christ himself isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and to give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). They will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 20:4, Revelation 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against the church (Revelation 12:17), not God's wrath, for the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Even when God's wrath comes in the 7 vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath, none of the vials will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).

Jesus will return right after the 7th-and-last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30), and he will bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that 2nd-coming wrath begins, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

*******

Revealing Times said in post 426:

Pentecost is now.

That's right, in the sense that besides getting water baptized, believers can get Holy Spirit baptized (Acts 11:15-16, Acts 10:44-46). They usually have to ask to receive the Holy Spirit (Luke 11:13b) baptism, for it is usually not given to them automatically at the moment they become believers. That is why Paul the apostle asked some believers: "Have ye received the Holy Spirit since ye believed?" (Acts 19:2).

Believers usually receive Holy Spirit baptism through prayer accompanied by the laying on of hands, subsequent to water baptism (Acts 8:15-17, Acts 19:5-6). Holy Spirit baptism won't result in speaking in tongues for everyone (1 Corinthians 12:30), but for almost everyone, as tongues are one of the Spirit's lesser gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8-11,28; 1 Corinthians 14:5). Many believers haven't yet experienced Holy Spirit baptism simply because they haven't yet asked for it, under the principle of "ye have not, because ye ask not" (James 4:2b). Many believers haven't yet asked for it because they have come under the influence of mistaken teachings which say that it is no longer in effect. Believers can get hands laid on them to receive Holy Spirit baptism at any Pentecostal-type congregation, or at any charismatic-type congregation, which can be of almost any denomination.

 

[Bible2+]

Straightshot said in post 422:

The things that you use for your story like the feast days are not even in operation during the Lord's dispensation of grace .... these things will not be re-instituted until the Lord's coming millennial kingdom upon the earth when He will rule the earth from His nation of Israel

Regarding "the Lord's dispensation of grace", this is sometimes referred to by people as "the present age". But regarding the present age (world) ending, note that nothing in verses like Ephesians 1:21b, Ephesians 1:10, Ephesians 3:2, Colossians 1:25, Titus 2:12b and Hebrews 6:5 says or requires that only the present age is an age of grace or a church age, or that the age to come won't also be an age of grace or a church age.

Also, the present age can include the future tribulation (Revelation chapters 6 to 18) and the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20), with the age to come being the subsequent time of the new earth (Revelation 21). For the end of the present age, when all the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Matthew 13:40, Revelation 20:15), won't occur until sometime after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-15).

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Straightshot said in post 428:

This thread is about the timing of the Lord's harpazo action for His true ecclesia .... no one can know the dating of this event

Once over in a split second, He will then bring His unprecedented wrath upon an unbelieving world including an intransigent Israel

Regarding "Once over in a split second", note that the only thing that will happen in the twinkling of an eye at Jesus' 2nd coming will be the resurrection (if dead) and the changing (if alive) of obedient believers into immortal physical bodies (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53). Other aspects of the 2nd coming will occur before and after that. The first thing visible to occur at the 2nd coming will be the light from the sun and moon temporarily being blocked from reaching the surface of the earth (Matthew 24:29). And there will be a meteorite shower, falling "stars" (Matthew 24:29). Then the sign of Jesus (possibly the Cross) will appear in the sky and the world will mourn when it realizes that the true Jesus is coming back (Matthew 24:30). Then the world will see Jesus in the clouds of the sky (Matthew 24:30). And the people of the world will wail (Revelation 1:7), knowing in their spirits that Jesus is coming back in wrath (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9).

But before the wrath of the 2nd coming begins (Revelation 19:15-21), all the souls of the dead in Christ (of all times), who will all come back with him from the 3rd heaven at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), will descend to the earth where their graves are and their bodies will be physically resurrected (1 Thessalonians 4:16, Revelation 20:4-6). Then they and all those in Christ who survived the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured (caught up together, gathered together) as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17, Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

 

[Bible2+]

JLB777 said in post 424:

Both the Olivet Discourse and Zechariah 14 is about His Coming.

Amen (Matthew 24:30, Zechariah 14:3-4).

For Zechariah 14 is about Jesus' never-fulfilled 2nd coming with all his saints (Zechariah 14:5b; 1 Thessalonians 3:13b), and about the subsequent millennium, when he will reign on the earth from Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:8-21, Micah 4:1-4). Zechariah 14:3 refers to the 2nd-coming battle of Revelation 19:19-21. And Zechariah 14:4 shows that at his 2nd coming, Jesus will physically land on the Mount of Olives, just as at the end of his 1st coming, he physically ascended from the Mount of Olives. Acts 1:11-12 says that Jesus will return in like manner as he left.

Before Jesus returns, at the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 the world's armies will gather together at a staging area at Armageddon (Revelation 16:14,16) (Har Megiddo, Mount Megiddo in northern Israel). They will then move south and pillage Jerusalem right before Jesus returns and defeats them (Zechariah 14:2-5, Revelation 19:19-21). Jesus will then remain on the earth as king (Zechariah 14:9), and the unsaved people left alive on the earth (Matthew 24:40) will be forced to come up to Jerusalem and worship him annually (Zechariah 14:16-19). Jesus and the physically resurrected church will rule the unsaved survivors of the nations with a rod of iron during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6).

Also, Zechariah 12:2-14 refers to the same future time as Zechariah 14.

--

It is sometimes claimed that Zechariah 14 was fulfilled at Jesus' 1st coming. But Jesus' 1st coming wasn't the day of the Lord (Zechariah 14:1), for that won't begin until his 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2). Also, Jesus' 1st coming didn't occur right after Jerusalem had been defeated by all nations gathered against it (Zechariah 14:2-5). Also, at his 1st coming, Jesus didn't fight the nations (Zechariah 14:3) and then land on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4). It will be at his 2nd coming that Jesus will fight the nations (Revelation 19:11-21) and then land on the Mount of Olives, just as he had ascended from the Mount of Olives at the end of his 1st coming (Acts 1:11-12).

Also, at his 1st coming, Jesus didn't split the Mount of Olives in two (Zechariah 14:4), creating a valley through which the Jews in Jerusalem could flee from Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:5) as Jesus waged war against all the nations of the world which had just pillaged Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:2-5). Also, at Jesus' 1st coming, he didn't come with all the saints (Zechariah 14:5b). That will happen only at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 3:13b). Also, at Jesus' 1st coming, he didn't make it so that Jerusalem was light at night (Zechariah 14:6-7). And he didn't make water flow out from Jerusalem in summer and winter, half of the water flowing toward the Dead Sea and the other half toward the Mediterranean (Zechariah 14:8). And he didn't make himself king over the earth (Zechariah 14:9). And he didn't flatten the topography for miles around Jerusalem and raise its elevation (Zechariah 14:10). And he didn't make it so that Jerusalem wouldn't be destroyed (Zechariah 14:11). And he didn't send an amazingly rapid, flesh-eating plague against the armies which had just pillaged Jerusalem, so that their flesh consumed away while they stood on their feet (Zechariah 14:12).

Also, at his 1st coming, Jesus didn't cause the armies which had just pillaged Jerusalem to fight against each other (Zechariah 14:13). And he didn't make Judah fight at Jerusalem and win for itself the wealth of all the nations surrounding it (Zechariah 14:14). And he didn't make the transportation animals used by the armies which had just pillaged Jerusalem suffer the horrible flesh-eating plague (Zechariah 14:15,12). And unsaved survivors of all nations which had just pillaged Jerusalem didn't come to Jerusalem annually at the feast of tabernacles to worship Jesus (Zechariah 14:16). And he didn't send drought and plague against the nations which refused to come to Jerusalem to worship him (Zechariah 14:17-19).

Also, at his 1st coming, Jesus didn't make Jerusalem so holy that even the bells on the horses in Jerusalem had the words "Holiness Unto The Lord" engraved on them (Zechariah 14:20). And he didn't make it so that the animal-sacrifice boiling pots in the temple in Jerusalem became as holy as the bowls before the altar (Zechariah 14:20). And didn't make it so that every pot in Jerusalem and Judah became holiness to the Lord (Zechariah 14:21). Instead, at his 1st coming, Jesus left unbelieving Jerusalem spiritually desolate (Luke 13:35). Also, at his 1st coming, Jesus didn't make it so that there would be no more Canaanites in the temple in Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:21).

 

[Bible2+]

ebedmelech said in post 430:

Since Jesus received ALL AUTHORITY upon His resurrection (Matthew 28:18), and has been reigning since, you have a problem with the 1000 years.

Note that Jesus isn't yet exercising his omnipotence (of Matthew 28:18) to the extent of physically subjugating the kings of the earth, like he will do during the future millennium (Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Micah 4:1-4, Zechariah 14:9-21).

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As God the Word, Jesus was the Creator of everything in heaven and earth (Colossians 1:16-18, John 1:1,3). And in the 1st century AD, he became a flesh and bones human being (John 1:14; 2 John 1:7), so he could die on the Cross for our sins and rise physically from the dead on the 3rd day (Hebrews 2:16-17; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and become our eternally-human high priest/mediator (Hebrews 7:24-26; 1 Timothy 2:5).

After his resurrection into immortality in his fully-human flesh and bones body (Luke 24:39), Jesus the man was given ultimate spiritual authority over heaven and earth (Matthew 28:18). He ascended bodily into heaven (Acts 1:9-10), and is now there ruling spiritually over everything (1 Peter 3:22, Ephesians 1:20-23, Colossians 2:10,15, Philippians 2:9).

But he won't take ultimate, de facto, physical authority over the earth until his 2nd coming, when, still as a flesh and bones human being (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14), he will descend from heaven (Revelation 19:11-21, Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12) to reign on the earth (Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:9-21) with a rod of iron with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3-4, Micah 4:1-4, Luke 1:32, Isaiah 9:6-7).

After his 1,000-year reign and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), Jesus will resurrect and judge everyone who wasn't resurrected at his 2nd coming (Revelation 20:11-15). Everyone who has ever lived will have to bow down before him and admit that he is Lord of everything (Philippians 2:10-11, Acts 10:36).

ebedmelech said in post 430:

The 1000 years are symbolic . . .

Amillennialism mistakenly claims that the "thousand" in Revelation 20:4-6 can't be literal, but must be only symbolic of fullness/completion, like in Psalms 50:10. But in the Bible, "thousand" can be literal (e.g. Numbers 31:4-6, Numbers 35:4, Judges 20:10; 2 Kings 15:19; 1 Chronicles 19:6, Song of Songs 8:11, Revelation 20:2-7).

Amillennialism ends up (inadvertently) logically requiring the error of full preterism (2 Timothy 2:18). For claiming that the church's resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 is already present requires that Jesus' 2nd coming has already happened. For the church's resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 won't happen until the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Also, amillennialism ends up (inadvertently) logically requiring the error of partial preterism. For claiming that the resurrection of those beheaded by the Antichrist during the future tribulation and their subsequent reigning on the earth with the returned Jesus for the full 1,000 years of the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29) is already present, requires that the Antichrist's literal, 3.5-year worldwide reign during the tribulation (Revelation 13:4-18) has already happened. Also, amillennialism is mistaken because it requires that the devil is currently bound in the bottomless pit (Revelation 20:1-6), when in fact he is currently walking around on the earth seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8), and he won't be bound until the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19 to 20:3).

ebedmelech said in post 430:

Please note that according to Luke 21:

1. Jerusalem is surrounded by armies.

When Jesus says "ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies" (Luke 21:20), he is referring to the 1st part of Daniel 11:31: "And arms shall stand on his part". And when Jesus says "the desolation" in Luke 21:20, he is referring to the "abomination of desolation" part of Daniel 11:31, just as in Matthew 24:15, he is referring to the "abomination of desolation" part of Daniel 11:31.

So Luke 21:20-23 isn't referring to 70 AD, nor (as is sometimes claimed) to the pillaging of Jerusalem which will occur at the very end of the future tribulation, right before Jesus' 2nd coming to save Jerusalem (Zechariah 14), but is referring to what will happen mid-tribulation, when the Antichrist will antitypically fulfill Daniel 11:31 at the start of his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18), during which 3.5 years, Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles (Revelation 11:2b), which future treading down is what Luke 21:24 is referring to.

Regarding the "abomination of desolation", Daniel 11:31 was typically fulfilled by the abomination of desolation in 1 Maccabees 1:54, which occurred in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 2nd Jewish temple in Jerusalem in the time of Antiochus IV. But per Jesus' statement in Matthew 24:15, the church will see the abomination of desolation in Daniel 11:31 fulfilled (antitypically) in the future, when the church will see the abomination of desolation stand in the holy place (of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem). This future abomination of desolation could be a standing, android image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15) which his followers ("they") will put in the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31) to be worshipped (Revelation 13:15), after they have stopped the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices which the ultra-Orthodox Jews will have restarted in front of the temple (Daniel 11:31). This image will pollute the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31).

The Antichrist will then fulfill Daniel 11:36 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 by sitting himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaiming himself God. By the power of Satan (the dragon, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will then rule and be worshipped by all the nations of the earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18), and will physically overcome Biblical Christians (not in hiding) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, from the day on which (antitypically) "the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be 1,290 days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the 1,335 days" (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). Also, because the Antichrist will fulfill Daniel 11:31 antitypically (Matthew 24:15) and will fulfill Daniel 11:36 for the 1st (and only) time, then he will also fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 (the 1st part of it antitypically, and the rest for the 1st and only time) when he arises on the world stage, for that passage refers to the career of the same man. And since the Antichrist will fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 when he arises on the world stage, then just preceding his arising on the world stage, Daniel 11:13-19 could be fulfilled antitypically by a future, Iraqi Baathist General completely defeating and occupying Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

ebedmelech said in post 430:

2. The people of Israel are dispersed among the nations

3. Jerusalem is trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the TIME of the Gentiles are fulfilled. This refers to Gentiles being grafted into the Israel of God.

Note that Luke 21:24 wasn't fulfilled by Titus's armies in 70 AD. For it refers to the same, future treading down underfoot (i.e. not merely an outside siege) of Jerusalem by the Gentiles as Revelation 11:2b, during the Antichrist's future, literal (and never fulfilled) 42-month worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18).

That is, the treading down of Jerusalem during the "times" (Greek: kairos: G2540) of the Gentiles in Luke 21:24 refers to what will occur during certain years in our future, the same "times" (kairos: G2540), or years, referred to in Revelation 12:14b, during which the Gentiles will tread down Jerusalem as part of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 11:2b, Revelation 13:5-18), during the 2nd half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

Similarly, when Paul says "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25), he means until a full number of genetic Gentile individuals have become saved, which won't happen until near the end of the future tribulation, right before Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (Romans 11:26).

Immediately after the tribulation, when the whole world will see the amazing return of Jesus himself (Matthew 24:29-30, Revelation 1:7), all the still-living, unsaved, elect genetic Jews will be ashamed, and will all weep and become saved when they see Jesus and realize that he truly is their salvation (Zechariah 12:10-14, Romans 11:26-29). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, just as when genetic Jews believe in Jesus now they become part of the church. For now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

And the genetic Jews who will become believers at the 2nd coming will all become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit, who is "the spirit of grace and of supplications" in Zechariah 12:10 (Hebrews 10:29c, Romans 8:26), just as genetic Jewish believers today become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit. For it is by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit that both genetic Jewish believers and genetic Gentile believers become part of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13).

Also, if the genetic Jews who will become saved at the 2nd coming had been religious Jews, they won't continue to mistakenly try to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, because they will then be believers in the truth that on Jesus' Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was completely and forever abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), disannulled (Hebrews 7:18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the 2nd covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9), of Jesus' New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).

All believers, both Jews and Gentles, of all times, are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, and shouldn't keep it (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Galatians 2:11-21), or have any desire to keep it (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8, Galatians 3:2-25). Believers keep the spirit of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:6) by loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), by doing to others as they would have others do to them (Matthew 7:12).

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Also, the fullness of the Gentiles coming in during the tribulation doesn't mean that no Gentiles will be added to the church during the subsequent millennium, because they will be (Isaiah 66:19-20). For "fullness" doesn't have to mean "no more after that". For example, even after a cup has been filled with wine, more wine can be added to it, so that the "cup runneth over" (Psalms 23:5b). Also, it doesn't matter that the new believers during the millennium will be added to the church/bride (cf. Ephesians 4:4-6, Ephesians 5:30-32) after the marriage occurred at the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7). For as many husbands have discovered, a bride can increase in size sometime after her wedding.

ebedmelech said in post 430:

We'll know the true view because there's no doubt Jesus is returning, and someone's view won't happen.

True enough.

But why does partial preterism believe in a future 2nd coming, but not a future tribulation, when:

1. The 2nd coming and rapture (the gathering together/catching up together of the church: 2 Thessalonians 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) must occur "immediately after" the tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6);

2. The 2nd coming and rapture can't occur until sometime after the man of sin (commonly called the Antichrist, also called the beast) sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem during the tribulation and declares himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15-31, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-18); and

3. At Jesus' 2nd coming to rapture and marry the church, he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20)?

Partial preterism might answer: "It is obvious that the 2nd coming hasn't happened yet". And that's right. But full preterism nonetheless still (mistakenly) claims that the 2nd coming, resurrection, and rapture described in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (and in 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Corinthians 15:22-23,52-54, and Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) have already happened. For full preterism employs the same "it's only allegorical, not literal" argument which partial preterism uses to (mistakenly) claim that all the highly-detailed, myriad different events of the tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 have already happened. If partial preterism has no problem accepting that the 2nd coming, resurrection of the church, and rapture haven't yet occurred, for nowhere in history do we find the events of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (which are the same events as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Corinthians 15:22-23,52-54, and Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), then why does partial preterism have a problem accepting the fact that the events of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 haven't yet occurred either, for nowhere in history do we find these events either?

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ebedmelech said in post 431:

Revelation 7:9 is John's vision of ALL OF THE REDEEMED OF GOD. That's what the 144,000 represents.

Note that those are 2 different groups, one on earth and one in heaven, one that is numbered and one that isn't. And neither group needs to represent all of the redeemed of God.

Regarding the great multitude in Revelation 7:9-17, they can be only that part of the church (Revelation 7:14b) which will enter the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and then come out of it (Revelation 7:14) and enter heaven (Revelation 7:15) by dying (cf. Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8) during the 2nd through 6th seals in the chapter just prior (Revelation 6), the tribulation's 1st stage.

This would be similar to how the souls of "them that were slain for the word of God", who will be under the altar in heaven at the 5th seal (Revelation 6:9-11), will enter heaven by dying sometime before the 5th seal. And it would be similar to how those in the church who will be on the sea of glass in heaven (Revelation 15:2, cf. Revelation 12:11) at the tribulation's 7 last plagues (Revelation chapters 15-16), the tribulation's final stage, will enter heaven by dying during the just-preceding, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

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Regarding the 144,000, they will all be Christians (Revelation 14:1,4), and so they will all be part of the church (cf. Ephesians 4:4-6). They will be the firstfruits of the church (Revelation 14:4), in the sense of its best part (cf. Numbers 18:12). They will be male virgins (Revelation 14:4), who could all have been born in the 20th or 21st century, and who could all already be part of the church. For they will all be alive on the earth, and will all already be God's servants (Revelation 7:3; cf. Romans 6:22, Philippians 1:1), by the time of Revelation 7:3-8, during the 1st stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will have entered the tribulation along with the rest of the church alive at that time, for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Also, the 144,000, who are of the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 7:4-8), can include both Jews and Gentiles in the church. For all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

The tribe of Dan is missing from the list of the 144,000's twelve tribes (Revelation 7:4-8; there, "Joseph" stands for Ephraim: Numbers 1:32, Psalms 78:67, Ezekiel 37:16b,19) because the Israel they are from isn't genetic Israel with its 12 genetic tribes which include Dan (Genesis 49:28,17), but rather spiritual Israel (Romans 9:6-8), which consists of all the elect (Romans 9:11-13), both elect Jews and elect Gentiles (Romans 9:24).

 

[Psalm3704]

Both the Olivet Discourse and Zechariah 14 is about His Coming.

Case Closed.

JLB

We've been disputing over Zechariah 14 which you claim is the Olivet Discourse.

Nobody is in disagreement or arguing over His second coming, Mr. Straw Man

I can play your game too and say Jesus is the Son of God and will reign on earth. Case Closed.

It's very disrespectful of you to call our Lord Jesus Christ a "straw-man"

Keep this up and Christ will be asking you why do you willfully violate the 9th commandment?

Peter teaches us it was Christ who spoke through the OT prophets.

10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11

You don't read carefully do you? Peter is telling us all the prophets were inspired, not only Zechariah.

1 Peter 1:10 (KJV) Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

The Lord Jesus Christ spoke these words through the mouth of Zechariah about His Coming.

You'll be shocked to find out God also spoke the words of His coming to Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Malachi, Matthew, Mark, Luke, Paul, John and David

“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Zechariah 12:10

again

Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;... Zechariah 14:1-2

again

And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives... Zechariah 14:4


The Context of Zechariah 14 is irrefutable, and is about the coming of the Lord.

The Context about Matthew 24 is irrefutable, and is about the coming of the Lord.

This still doesn't make Zechariah 14 the Olivet Discourse. Unless you can prove Zechariah was alive and sitting at the Mount of Olives with the disciples listening to Jesus' prophecies, Zechariah 14 is not the Olivet Discourse.

Just because you think it does, makes it easily refutable.

Matthew 24 and Zechariah 14 is Jesus Christ Himself speaking about His Coming.

This still doesn't prove Zechariah 14 is the Olivet Discourse, especially when 1/4 of the entire bible are prophecies of Christ's second coming.

Did you know Zechariah is not the only prophet in the old testament?







.

 

[Psalm3704]

@JBL777

Read this. Just because Zechariah was inspired and wrote prophecies about the second coming, it doesn't mean he wrote the Olivet Discourse. Christ gave the sermon on Mount of Olives and Matthew, Mark and Luke were there to record what He said.

Zechariah was not there. Case Closed.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Olivet-discourse.html

Question: "What is the Olivet Discourse?"

Answer: The Olivet Discourse is the name given to the orderly and extended teaching given by Jesus Christ on the Mount of Olives. His subject is the end times. This discourse is recorded in Matthew 24:1 – 25:46. Parallel passages are found in Mark 13:1-37 and Luke 21:5-36. The record in Matthew is the most extensive, so reference here will be to Matthew's Gospel.

It is important to recognize that Jesus’ teaching in this discourse is in reference to Israel and not the Church. Christ was speaking of God’s future program for Israel. Other passages to consider when studying the Olivet Discourse are Daniel 9:24-27 and Revelation 6:1 – 19:21, which refer to the future seven-year period called the tribulation. God’s program for the Church concludes with the rapture, which is not taught in the Olivet Discourse. The rapture of the Church is found in John 14:1-4; 1 Corinthians 15:51-52; and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

In Matthew 23, Jesus had spoken to the Pharisees concerning judgment. This can be seen in the "woe" statements in that chapter. In 24:1, Jesus was leaving the temple when the disciples called His attention to the magnificent buildings on the temple mount. Jesus then tells the disciples that “not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down” (verse 2). This prophecy was literally fulfilled in A.D. 70 when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem. The temple was burned. The gold in the temple melted in the fire and ran down into the cracks between the stones. As people later searched for the gold, they toppled every stone from its place. This destruction of Jerusalem was but a foreshadowing of what is yet to come.

Jesus’ prophecy of doom got the disciples curious, and probably more than a little concerned. When they were alone with Jesus on the Mount of Olives, they asked Him, "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" (verse 3). What follows in Matthew 24–25 refers to the future, seven-year tribulation period and the second coming of Christ at the end of the tribulation. During that time, God will complete His chastisement and purification of Israel and judge the whole world (Daniel 9:24-27; Revelation 6–19).

Daniel 9:27 indicates that the tribulation will be divided into two equal parts. Jesus’ teaching in Matthew 24:4-8refers to the first half. The “birth pangs” (verse 8) refer to the sufferings that Israel will experience during the first 3 1/2 years. The signs with reference to the end of the age are the coming of false messiahs (verse 5), the threat of wars and widespread conflict (verses 6-7), and various natural catastrophes (verse 7).

Revelation 6 is a parallel passage. The apostle John writes of the seal judgments. Revelation 6:2 speaks of a rider on a white horse, which refers to a false messiah called elsewhere the Antichrist and the Beast. Revelation 6:4 says that peace is taken from the earth. Revelation 6:6-8 speaks of famine and death. Jesus said these things are only the “beginning of birth pangs” (Matthew 24:8). Worse is yet to come.

In Revelation 13, the second half of the tribulation begins when the Beast, or Antichrist, sets up his rule for 42 months (cf. Daniel 9:27; Matthew 24:15).

In the Olivet Discourse, the second half of the tribulation is described in Matthew 24:9-14. Persecution of the Jews and death (verse 9) will be the result of the Beast’s rise to power. The Antichrist will also persecute anyone who refuses to follow him (Revelation 13:1-18).The salvation promised in Matthew 24:13 is deliverance from the Beast’s persecution. The one who endures until Christ returns will be saved from the Beast. Jesus says that “this gospel of the kingdom” will be preached worldwide before the end comes. In other words, the good news (gospel) will be available during the tribulation; the message will be that Christ will soon return in judgment to set up His earthly kingdom (Revelation 20:4-6). This message will cause many people to realize their sinful state and receive the Savior during the tribulation.

Matthew 24:15-26 gives further details concerning the tribulation. Jesus refers to an “abomination” and desolation of a future temple in Matthew 24:15-22; this is more clearly spoken of in Luke 21:20-24. The Beast will take authority and set up an image of himself in the future temple (Daniel 9:27; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4;Revelation 13:1-18). When this happens, Jesus says, head for the hills. Those in Jerusalem are advised to flee for their lives when they see that Beast has taken his seat of authority (Matthew 24:16-20). The Antichrist will rule from Jerusalem for 42 months (3 1/2 years), the latter half of the tribulation, called the “great tribulation” in verse 21.

Jesus warns that the great tribulation will be the worst time ever seen on earth (verse 21). In fact, if those days were not cut short by the return of Christ, no one would survive (compare the bowl judgments in Revelation 16).

Jesus again gives a warning of false prophets in the last days (Matthew 24:23-28). At the end of the tribulation, there will be astronomical upheaval (verse 29), and the nations of the world will see the Christ “coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory” (verses 29-30). Those who were saved during the tribulation will be gathered out of the world by the angels (verse 31).

Jesus emphasizes the facts that there will be signs leading up to the day of judgment (Matthew 24:32-34) and that His Word is sure (verse 35). Jesus says that no one knows the timing of these events and that those upon whom judgment is coming will be caught unawares (verses 36-44).

Jesus ends the Olivet Discourse with four parables. The first one concerns a wicked servant whose master punishes him upon his return home (Matthew 24:45-51). The next, the Parable of the Ten Virgins, encourages readiness and watchfulness (25:1-13). The third parable, relating the story of three servants and their use (or misuse) of finances, teaches faithfulness in view of the fact that God’s servants must give an account of themselves one day (25:14-30). Jesus ends His discourse by telling the Parable of the Sheep and Goats, which pictures the dividing of the saved from the unsaved at the end of the tribulation before the commencement of Christ’s millennial reign (25:31-46).

Within days of the Olivet Discourse, Jesus was betrayed into the hands of unbelievers and crucified for sinners. The Holy One of God will one day return in glory to judge the world, but first He had to provide the way of salvation for all who would trust in Him.

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All you did was take three passages: Zechariah 12:10, Zechariah 14:1-2 and Zechariah 14:4 from the book of Zechariah, suddenly realized he was prophesying about Jesus and now you think Zechariah 14 is the Olivet Discourse.

The Lord Jesus Christ spoke these words through the mouth of Zechariah about His Coming.

“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Zechariah 12:10

again

Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;... Zechariah 14:1-2

again

And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives... Zechariah 14:4

Tell me, was Zechariah 14:4 the kicker for you because it said "And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives."

Did you get some type of revelation when you saw the words "Mount of Olives" and came to the conclusion Zechariah's prophecy is also the Olivet Discourse?

If so, I got news for you, Paul also wrote the Olivet Discourse. Look!

Acts 1:10-12 New King James Version (NKJV)
10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.” 12 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day’s journey.​

Paul wrote about Christ's return, the second coming, and he also used the words Mount of Olives.

By your standard, this is irrefutable!

Case Closed!





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[Psalm3704]

Why does it matters so much for you to know the precise number of the souls of the first Christians martyrs which have been slain for their testimony of Jesus that John saw under the altar of God in Heaven?

When you make a bold statement claiming you can calculate the number of Christian martyred souls kept under the altar since the opening of the 5th seal mentioned in Revelation 6:9-11, I want to know how you can come up with the number.

Or are your words just all hype and a bunch of poo-poos?

You are jumping from discussing about the (locusts) which will not kill
but will cause a very suffering pain upon the unbelievers during 5 months ...and you blend it with the (horsemen)of Revelation 9 who will kill 1/3 of humanity.

Riberra, the weapons of war used during the 1st half of the trumpet judgements will be the same used during the 2nd half of the vial judgement. Things won't change in a few years. Tanks, helicopters, jets, ships, rockets, missiles and nukes will be used throughout the 7 years of the tribulation.

If you believe actual locusts is used during the trumpets judgement, locusts will also be used during the vials.

So how will locusts kill 1/3 of mankind?

You should learn the difference between no flesh would be saved (Salvation) if they take the mark and worship the AC during the 42 months reign of the AC/Beast versus no flesh would be alive.

You should learn what Jesus said in Matthew 24:15-22. It's not about (Salvation) or the mark of the beast.










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[JLB777]

Read this. Just because Zechariah was inspired and wrote prophecies about the second coming, it doesn't mean he wrote the Olivet Discourse. Christ gave the sermon on Mount of Olives and Matthew, Mark and Luke were there to record what He said.

Zechariah was not there. Case Closed.

Aaaaahhhh, now that you have been proven wrong by the scriptures, you resort to the logical fallacy.

Fallacy: Straw Man The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:
1. Person A has position X.
2. Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
3. Person B attacks position Y.
4. Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. One might as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of a person to hurt the person.


No one has claimed that Zechariah wrote the Olivet Discourse.

Your getting desperate!



JLB

 

[Postvieww]

I think it's pretty clear Postvieww. I've been kind of busy with work (which kept me from logging on)...but I think it's pretty clear that the verses I gave you refer to ONLY the physical resurrection with the exception of Luke 11:25-26 ...but even there look how carefully Jesus put it:
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”

Do you get what Jesus is saying there? I ask because many times I read the verse before I really caught what it's saying.

One has to come in life in Christ FIRST if they're going to live forever. That is the spiritual resurrection which means EVEN IF WE DIE...WE LIVE.

Just as there are two deaths which are physical and spiritual there are two resurrections (physical and spiritual). The only difference is if one is in Christ they die ONCE. Those without Christ die TWICE...(for the most part). Just as not all Christians will die because some will be alive when Christ returns, not all of the spiritually dead will die twice as some will be alive when Christ returns.


The problem comes here when many fail to realize Revelation is not chronological. Revelation 7:9 is John's vision of ALL OF THE REDEEMED OF GOD. That's what the 144,000 represents. John HEARD them numbered (he didn't see anything).
It was when John turned SEE the great multitude which is from every nation. That's what the 144,000 is. That number INCLUDES those who were martyred, they are a special group John saw that came out of the great tribulation. All of the 144,000 did not go through it.

Ebedmelech said:

Do you get what Jesus is saying there? I ask because many times I read the verse before I really caught what it's saying.

One has to come in life in Christ FIRST if they're going to live forever. That is the spiritual resurrection which means EVEN IF WE DIE...WE LIVE.

Just as there are two deaths which are physical and spiritual there are two resurrections (physical and spiritual). The only difference is if one is in Christ they die ONCE. Those without Christ die TWICE...(for the most part). Just as not all Christians will die because some will be alive when Christ returns, not all of the spiritually dead will die twice as some will be alive when Christ returns.

Do you believe the dead in Christ from past generations will receive a resurrected literal eternal body when Jesus returns?


The problem comes here when many fail to realize Revelation is not chronological.

I do not believe Revelation is chronological.

Revelation 7:9 is John's vision of ALL OF THE REDEEMED OF GOD.

What is that based on? Rev 7:14 identifies them as “they which came out of great tribulation” not all of the redeemed of God.

That's what the 144,000 represents. John HEARD them numbered (he didn't see anything).

It was when John turned SEE the great multitude which is from every nation. That's what the 144,000 is. That number INCLUDES those who were martyred, they are a special group John saw that came out of the great tribulation. All of the 144,000 did not go through it.

If the 144,000 is a representation of a larger group why does scripture break it down for us as 12,000 from each of the listed tribes?