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LDS Joseph Smith's Claim of an Apostasy is a Lie

Ironhold

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[Citation required.]

I actually knew a guy that happened to.

He was raised in a mainline Christian denomination. While in school, he learned that a local girl was Mormon. He decided that it was his "Christian" duty to get into a relationship with her, then use that relationship to "save" her.

As part of it, he decided to start reading a lot of anti-Mormon material and comparing it to what the church itself was officially saying & doing, plus what he was seeing in the girl.

After a while, he came to realize that the anti-Mormon material was nothing more than hogwash. He left his denomination in order to become a member of the church, at which point he married the girl. He hasn't looked back since.
 
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Ironhold

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If that were true then mormons wouldn't be whining about him. I'm sure it's not true - I'm sure he sufficiently exposes the real beliefs of mormonism so that seekers see how different and strange from Christianity their real beliefs are. And I'm sure that deters people from joining the mormon religion and even leads many mormons out of their religion and to Christianity.

...only for people to realize that he's full of it and come right back to us.

I was actually involved in a situation where that happened.

A critic of the church was making noise on a message board I and a few others - including WWA - were on at the time. She claimed to have been a former member of the church, and that she left after reading Decker. We told her about Decker's reputation for nonsense and a number of the lies he told, at which point she agreed to re-investigate matters.

A little while later, she came back and admitted that, after investigating everything, she found that Decker was, indeed, lying. Because of this, she was going to investigate the church all over again. This time, Decker's material would be kicked to the curb so she could investigate fairly.

In response, a guy who claimed to be a Baptist minister exploded on everyone. He posted an open letter to her husband, during which he ordered the man to use "any means necessary" to stop her from rejoining the LDS faith. If she did rejoin the church, the minister pronounced, it would mean that he was a failure as a husband and a Christian.

The woman responded to the letter by noting that she and her husband were now joining the church, as neither wanted to belong to a faith tradition that would let someone like the minister be a minister.
 
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ToBeLoved

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I actually knew a guy that happened to.

He was raised in a mainline Christian denomination. While in school, he learned that a local girl was Mormon. He decided that it was his "Christian" duty to get into a relationship with her, then use that relationship to "save" her.

As part of it, he decided to start reading a lot of anti-Mormon material and comparing it to what the church itself was officially saying & doing, plus what he was seeing in the girl.

After a while, he came to realize that the anti-Mormon material was nothing more than hogwash. He left his denomination in order to become a member of the church, at which point he married the girl. He hasn't looked back since.
We do not know his true feelings or beliefs. So saying that 'he hasn't looked back since' is impossible for you to know.
 
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ToBeLoved

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...only for people to realize that he's full of it and come right back to us.

I was actually involved in a situation where that happened.

A critic of the church was making noise on a message board I and a few others - including WWA - were on at the time. She claimed to have been a former member of the church, and that she left after reading Decker. We told her about Decker's reputation for nonsense and a number of the lies he told, at which point she agreed to re-investigate matters.

A little while later, she came back and admitted that, after investigating everything, she found that Decker was, indeed, lying. Because of this, she was going to investigate the church all over again. This time, Decker's material would be kicked to the curb so she could investigate fairly.

In response, a guy who claimed to be a Baptist minister exploded on everyone. He posted an open letter to her husband, during which he ordered the man to use "any means necessary" to stop her from rejoining the LDS faith. If she did rejoin the church, the minister pronounced, it would mean that he was a failure as a husband and a Christian.

The woman responded to the letter by noting that she and her husband were now joining the church, as neither wanted to belong to a faith tradition that would let someone like the minister be a minister.
Isn't it wonderful that in the US we have the freedom to join any religion we believe in.

Seems again like Ed Decker is an asset to your faith. Maybe thank him.
 
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Peter1000

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I don't. I see much twisting of information.

If you don't see that. That's too bad

Now back on topic the apostasy. If it's been proven that the BOA is a fraud. Why would anyone believe your prophet? Even the photos were doctored.


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I suspect you meant BOM is a fraud. Well you have nailed it right on the head.

This is the classic BOM challenge.

If you read the BOM and the spirit whispers that it is true, then you know that JS was a true prophet of God.

If you read it and the HS does not whisper in your ear that it is true, then you will believe that JS was not a prophet of God.

Finally, there are some that will not read the BOM, but still cry loudly that JS is a fraud. This is a totally unreliable testimony.

Here is a 23 year old farm boy from upstate New York, in the middle of nowhere about 1827, with a 3rd grade education and no money. But he is able to bring forth a 531 page, extemely complicated book, that ranges in time from 2200bc to 421ad and in geography, from the tower of Babel and Jerusalem in the old world to Mexico City in the new world.

He is able to come up with $3,000 and put out a first publication of 5,000 BOMs'. Again, you must always keep in mind that he is a nobody, poor, country boy with no education and no money. Why was he able to pull this miracle off?

If you are sincerely honest, you have to ask yourself, how does he pull off this miracle?
 
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ToBeLoved

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I suspect you meant BOM is a fraud. Well you have nailed it right on the head.

This is the classic BOM challenge.

If you read the BOM and the spirit whispers that it is true, then you know that JS was a true prophet of God.

If you read it and the HS does not whisper in your ear that it is true, then you will believe that JS was not a prophet of God.
That is of course what they tell you. But you know what, there are a lot of false spirits and false feelings. Mankind can bring upon themselves almost ever kind of feeling they like.

Such is why we are told to test the spirits and know that the heart is wicked above all things. Our hearts will convince us something is right that we want to do. Our heart knows that if it can justify something our brain accepts it.

Be warned by scripture. Not falling for the doctrine of men, but of God's Word.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Finally, there are some that will not read the BOM, but still cry loudly that JS is a fraud. This is a totally unreliable testimony.

Who needs to read the entire BOM? Any Christian can read a few chapters of it and see that it conflicts with God's Word.

JS cannot restore what he was never a part of in the first place. There is plenty, an overwhelming amount of evidence in the BOM for us to call JS a fraud. So one does not need to read a lot of it. It is so different that the verses conflict everywhere.
 
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Peter1000

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My mom read the Book of Mormon about the time I was born, didn't move her at all. Eight years later she picked up an anti Mormon pamphlet and read it, she thought "I don't remember reading that in the Book of Mormon" so she dusted off her old copy and read it again, this time straight through. When she was done she called up the missionaries and asked for baptism. She was real frustrated that she had to have the discussions first.
Good story withwonderingawe, and look what your mother has brought forth in you. You are a great researcher, I have learned a lot from your posts. Keep up the good work.
 
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ArmenianJohn

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The idea that Jesus would choose a foundational office like the Apostle, only to be there to set up a few churches aroung the Meditteranean is silly. The bible in fact disagrees with you.
Ephesians 4:11-14
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Who is he? It is Jesus that gave them.

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

What reason did Jesus give them:
1) for the perfecting of the saints. Looks like saints cannot be perfected without living apostles.
2) for the work of the ministry. You have to be living to do the work of the ministry.
3) for the edifying of the body of Christ. Looks like the body of Christ can not be edifed without living apostles.



13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

How long do we need the apostles and prophets?
1) till we all come in the unity of the faith. Not till the foundation is layed??
2) till we all come to the knowledge of the Son of God. That certainly has not happened yet.
3) till we are perfect men as measured by the stature of the fulness of Christ. Are we all perfect men like Christ?


14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

This is the main reason we still need apostles and prophets and others.


You say: So, there are no "living Apostles". That is a misunderstanding of the office of Apostle that the Bible teaches about.

Show me 1 scripture that says that the apostles and prophets of the church of Jesus Christ was going to go away after they layed the foundation. I have shown you a scripture that proves that is not true.

Besides it is silly to think that Jesus would set up the most important office of apostle, and not preserve it, but he would preserve a much lesser office of pastor.

What do you think happens to a house when it's foundation is weakened or ruined? It falls.
I can show you scriptures that define the qualifications of an Apostle. Consider Acts 1 where the Apostles choose a replacement for Judas and state that he must be one who was with them all the time Christ was with them and he must be a witness of the resurrection. Note also that this passage states there were 11 Apostles (with Matthias added to them).
Acts 1
20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Acts 10 confirms this:
Acts 10
39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

Paul asserts his title of Apostle by claiming his witness of the risen Christ:
I Cor 9
1 Am I am not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?

And again in I Cor. 15
I Cor 15
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

In Ephesians 2 it gives the best picture of the fact that the Church is like a building
Ephesians 2
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

The Apostles were clearly intended to establish the Church (with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone) and the Church is "built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets". We have the words and teachings of Christ through the Apostles in God's Holy Word, the Bible. There is nothing else to be established. The Church is the structure built on top of the foundation. The Church is the house of God through the Spirit.

To claim that there is further revelation is saying that the Bible is imperfect. That is the mormon claim, but it is wrong and it is not the Christian view at all.
 
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Peter1000

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Who needs to read the entire BOM? Any Christian can read a few chapters of it and see that it conflicts with God's Word.

JS cannot restore what he was never a part of in the first place. There is plenty, an overwhelming amount of evidence in the BOM for us to call JS a fraud. So one does not need to read a lot of it. It is so different that the verses conflict everywhere.
All I say to a person like you is, one day you will be in a different frame of mind and you will come to know that the bringing forth of the BOM was a miracle and you will want to know more. Someday?
 
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ArmenianJohn

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...only for people to realize that he's full of it and come right back to us.

I was actually involved in a situation where that happened.

A critic of the church was making noise on a message board I and a few others - including WWA - were on at the time. She claimed to have been a former member of the church, and that she left after reading Decker. We told her about Decker's reputation for nonsense and a number of the lies he told, at which point she agreed to re-investigate matters.

A little while later, she came back and admitted that, after investigating everything, she found that Decker was, indeed, lying. Because of this, she was going to investigate the church all over again. This time, Decker's material would be kicked to the curb so she could investigate fairly.

In response, a guy who claimed to be a Baptist minister exploded on everyone. He posted an open letter to her husband, during which he ordered the man to use "any means necessary" to stop her from rejoining the LDS faith. If she did rejoin the church, the minister pronounced, it would mean that he was a failure as a husband and a Christian.

The woman responded to the letter by noting that she and her husband were now joining the church, as neither wanted to belong to a faith tradition that would let someone like the minister be a minister.
Well it's kind of interesting that all of your stories are anecdotal and nothing is supported by factual, independent sources.

My belief is that while you may or may not be sincere (I can't and won't make that judgment), you are wrong. You are mistaken or you are missing information or you are looking at things with a bias so you only see the parts of the stories that you want to see.

Without any kind of facts to go on it's just your opinion based on the stories as you see them and then my reaction which is based on what I know about your bias and how there are no facts provided but instead just your view.

I am sure that at the very least you are mistaken and seeing things in a biased way and your mind is filling in the gaps with some sensationalized details that attune to your bias against non-mormons.

The fact that you use an internet message board, filled with faceless, anonymous members, as a basis for what you consider to be "reality" makes your views highly suspect right off the bat.
 
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ArmenianJohn

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All I say to a person like you is, one day you will be in a different frame of mind and you will come to know that the bringing forth of the BOM was a miracle and you will want to know more. Someday?
I bear testimony that I KNOW that the Book of Mormon is False and a lie. I know this through the teaching of the Holy Spirit. I know that I will forever know the Book of Mormon to be a lie and a false scripture. I have read the Book of Mormon and prayed to God to know if it's true or false and the Holy Spirit taught me that it is completely false by giving me no burning in the bosom and by guiding me to the Word of God and teaching me that mormonism and the book of mormon are false.
 
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ToBeLoved

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All I say to a person like you is, one day you will be in a different frame of mind and you will come to know that the bringing forth of the BOM was a miracle and you will want to know more. Someday?
I really don't think so. Thinking that God could author two books that conflict with each other shows that you do not understand the nature and character of a righteous God.

Your God can make mistakes and conflict with Himself, my God cannot. My God is righteous, perfectly righteous.

If Jesus could make mistakes, then your Jesus cannot save you. I think it is you who hopefully God will be merciful to who will think differently later. I hope it goes well for you.
 
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ToBeLoved

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I am sure that at the very least you are mistaken and seeing things in a biased way and your mind is filling in the gaps with some sensationalized details that attune to your bias against non-mormons.

The fact that you use an internet message board, filled with faceless, anonymous members, as a basis for what you consider to be "reality" makes your views highly suspect right off the bat.
The heart is wicked above all things, who can know it?

The human mind and heart are a powerful combination. That's why the Lord is all about what is in our hearts, because it can lead one to folly very easily. We have to learn to control our hearts and minds. To seek the spiritual, not the carnal. Yup.
 
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Peter1000

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I can show you scriptures that define the qualifications of an Apostle. Consider Acts 1 where the Apostles choose a replacement for Judas and state that he must be one who was with them all the time Christ was with them and he must be a witness of the resurrection. Note also that this passage states there were 11 Apostles (with Matthias added to them).
Acts 1
20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Acts 10 confirms this:
Acts 10
39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

Paul asserts his title of Apostle by claiming his witness of the risen Christ:
I Cor 9
1 Am I am not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?

And again in I Cor. 15
I Cor 15
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

In Ephesians 2 it gives the best picture of the fact that the Church is like a building
Ephesians 2
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

The Apostles were clearly intended to establish the Church (with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone) and the Church is "built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets". We have the words and teachings of Christ through the Apostles in God's Holy Word, the Bible. There is nothing else to be established. The Church is the structure built on top of the foundation. The Church is the house of God through the Spirit.

To claim that there is further revelation is saying that the Bible is imperfect. That is the mormon claim, but it is wrong and it is not the Christian view at all.

You say:
And again in I Cor. 15
I Cor 15
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

Notice it says that an apostle needed to be a witness with us of his resurrection. Not that he needed to witness all that Jesus had done.

So Paul becomes the key apostle in the continuation of the office of apostle, or the expanded foundation. He says, "and last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

The key words are "as of one born out of due time". This means that he was not a witness of all that Jesus had done, because he was born out of due time and was not around when Jesus was doing his ministry. Paul did not witness all that the other 13 had, but he was still worthy to be called to the office of an apostle.

The reason he was worthy was that Jesus made an appearance to him on the road to Damascus and showed himself to Paul and talked with him, so that Paul knew for a surety that Jesus was real. This is the qualification, not that you saw all that he did, but that you have seen him and talked to him and know for a surety that he was really resurrected.

Paul would have been at least the 14th apostle. Who's place did he take, probably James, I think he was killed by being run through by a sword in Jerusalem, only a couple of years after Jesus's ascension?

There were at least 15 apostles that we can consider from the bible, and a fair implications of others.

Any new apostle "born out of due time" can become worthy of the office of apostle by having Jesus appear to them and letting them know for an assurety that Jesus indeed was resurrected. That is the qualification.

26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Were you trying to say that with the addition of Mathias there was now 11, I don't think so. The 11 other apostles were choosing a replacement for Judas. If there had been only 10 apostles, logically, the 10 would be choosing 2 to replace Judas and ?. I think it may have been exactly clear if it would have said that he was numbered with the other 11 apostles that now brought the grand total up to 12 apostles again.

Why would there only be 11 apostles after Mathias was chosen to replace Judas?


 
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Jane_Doe

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Who needs to read the entire BOM? Any Christian can read a few chapters of it and see that it conflicts with God's Word.

JS cannot restore what he was never a part of in the first place. There is plenty, an overwhelming amount of evidence in the BOM for us to call JS a fraud. So one does not need to read a lot of it. It is so different that the verses conflict everywhere.
Except that we've had this discussion numerous times and you've never shown an actual conflict.
 
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Peter1000

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I really don't think so. Thinking that God could author two books that conflict with each other shows that you do not understand the nature and character of a righteous God.

Your God can make mistakes and conflict with Himself, my God cannot. My God is righteous, perfectly righteous.

If Jesus could make mistakes, then your Jesus cannot save you. I think it is you who hopefully God will be merciful to who will think differently later. I hope it goes well for you.
Sorry, but the bible confiicts with itself in many, many, many, many ways. But we overlook that because we know that scribes make errors and they are innocent. We know that even though there is a seeming conflict, generally we can find out the reason. There are some we can't but we still know that this is the word of God and we accept it and go on. We just go on, and don't focus on the conflict.

There are those that do focus on the conflict and they fall victim to their own stupidity, but it is a cause that they fall away from the church. We don't, we just go on and know that the bible is the words of God for our betterment. If you would read the BOM you would really find it to agree with the bible. It is a second witness that Jesus is really the Christ and he saved us from our sins and is resurrected and that we too may have eternal life with him. The bible is the first witness to these things.
 
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