LDS Joseph Smith's Claim of an Apostasy is a Lie

[Peter1000]

The Apostles who established the Armenian Apostolic Church are Sts. Jude (Thaddeus) and Bartholomew. We have a chain of succession from them to our current Catholicos. There are no Apostles other than the original Apostles. "Apostle" was an office. The office of Apostle was to lay the foundation of the Church. Once the foundation was laid there is no need to continue laying a foundation - the superstructure is then built. Watch how they build a house one day - they will build the foundation and then build the rest of the house on top of that. They will not keep expanding the foundation and never build the house. The Church is presented by the example of a building where the foundation is the Apostles and Christ is the Chief Cornerstone. After the original 12 (+1 for Paul) Apostles there were no other Apostles. There were also no further prophets.

So, there are no "living Apostles". That is a misunderstanding of the office of Apostle that the Bible teaches about. What the Church today has is the divinely inspired words of the Apostles in one Canon that is the Word of God. The Bible is sufficient - there is absolutely no need for any further revelation because the Word of God is sufficient for all things.

The idea that Jesus would choose a foundational office like the Apostle, only to be there to set up a few churches aroung the Meditteranean is silly. The bible in fact disagrees with you.
Ephesians 4:11-14
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Who is he? It is Jesus that gave them.

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

What reason did Jesus give them:
1) for the perfecting of the saints. Looks like saints cannot be perfected without living apostles.
2) for the work of the ministry. You have to be living to do the work of the ministry.
3) for the edifying of the body of Christ. Looks like the body of Christ can not be edifed without living apostles.


13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

How long do we need the apostles and prophets?
1) till we all come in the unity of the faith. Not till the foundation is layed??
2) till we all come to the knowledge of the Son of God. That certainly has not happened yet.
3) till we are perfect men as measured by the stature of the fulness of Christ. Are we all perfect men like Christ?

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

This is the main reason we still need apostles and prophets and others.


You say: So, there are no "living Apostles". That is a misunderstanding of the office of Apostle that the Bible teaches about.

Show me 1 scripture that says that the apostles and prophets of the church of Jesus Christ was going to go away after they layed the foundation. I have shown you a scripture that proves that is not true.

Besides it is silly to think that Jesus would set up the most important office of apostle, and not preserve it, but he would preserve a much lesser office of pastor.

What do you think happens to a house when it's foundation is weakened or ruined? It falls.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Ed Decker with his books and movies has brought more people into the Mormon church than have left the Mormon church. You want to know why? Well here it is:

Normal people know Mormon people, we are their neighbors and friends. Then they go to their church and hear this expose on Mormonism from ED. It is so utterly mind-bendingly stupid that people leave the film wondering who these monsters are living next to them. So this film actually precipitates a discussion that might not have happened otherwise. When the couple, actually under the influence of the HS, hear the truth of these things they are impressed to ask more, which many times leads to baptism. So hope his books and movies stay on the best seller list.

My mom read the Book of Mormon about the time I was born, didn't move her at all. Eight years later she picked up an anti Mormon pamphlet and read it, she thought "I don't remember reading that in the Book of Mormon" so she dusted off her old copy and read it again, this time straight through. When she was done she called up the missionaries and asked for baptism. She was real frustrated that she had to have the discussions first.

 

[mmksparbud]

What reason did Jesus give them:
1) for the perfecting of the saints. Looks like saints cannot be perfected without living apostles.
2) for the work of the ministry. You have to be living to do the work of the ministry.
3) for the edifying of the body of Christ. Looks like the body of Christ can not be edifed without living apostles.

The way you twist the scriptures is amazing!!
Ephesians 4:11-14
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;


This does not say---saints can not be perfected without living apostles! It says He gave SOME apostles! Also some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors, some teachers!!

Well---yah---you have to be living to do the work of the ministry---He gave no authority for the dead to do ministry!!!!

This does not say the body of Christ can not be edified without living apostles!! Again, it says He gave some apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors, some teachers!!!

 

[Jane_Doe]

Are you counting the dead that you baptize??

No. Only current living baptized members.

 

[Jane_Doe]

I didn't say non baptized
I said
Visitors. You can apologize now.


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A visitor is a non-baptisized person. A baptized person is a member even if they are visiting a congregation in a different country, because it's a GLOBAL church.

Now, why do you disseminate information you know is false?

 

[ToBeLoved]

The idea that Jesus would choose a foundational office like the Apostle, only to be there to set up a few churches aroung the Meditteranean is silly. The bible in fact disagrees with you.
Ephesians 4:11-14
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Who is he? It is Jesus that gave them.

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

What reason did Jesus give them:
1) for the perfecting of the saints. Looks like saints cannot be perfected without living apostles.
2) for the work of the ministry. You have to be living to do the work of the ministry.
3) for the edifying of the body of Christ. Looks like the body of Christ can not be edifed without living apostles.


13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

How long do we need the apostles and prophets?
1) till we all come in the unity of the faith. Not till the foundation is layed??
2) till we all come to the knowledge of the Son of God. That certainly has not happened yet.
3) till we are perfect men as measured by the stature of the fulness of Christ. Are we all perfect men like Christ?

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

This is the main reason we still need apostles and prophets and others.


You say: So, there are no "living Apostles". That is a misunderstanding of the office of Apostle that the Bible teaches about.

Show me 1 scripture that says that the apostles and prophets of the church of Jesus Christ was going to go away after they layed the foundation. I have shown you a scripture that proves that is not true.

Besides it is silly to think that Jesus would set up the most important office of apostle, and not preserve it, but he would preserve a much lesser office of pastor.

What do you think happens to a house when it's foundation is weakened or ruined? It falls.

The office of Apostle is a missionary
Spreading the gospel.

I know your don't, but that's the biblical meaning.


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[Ironhold]

Here is an example of what I'm talking about:

The missionaries in question got raked over the coals by members of the church back when it happened, and IIRC there was talk of severe ecclesiastical punishment.

 

[Ironhold]

Are you counting the dead that you baptize??

No.

We're talking 16 million living, breathing people who are 8+ and who have been baptized as members of the church.

 

[mmksparbud]

No.

We're talking 16 million living, breathing people who are 8+ and who have been baptized as members of the church.

What is your reply to post #758???

 

[BigDaddy4]

Ed Decker with his books and movies has brought more people into the Mormon church than have left the Mormon church. You want to know why? Well here it is:

Normal people know Mormon people, we are their neighbors and friends. Then they go to their church and hear this expose on Mormonism from ED. It is so utterly mind-bendingly stupid that people leave the film wondering who these monsters are living next to them. So this film actually precipitates a discussion that might not have happened otherwise. When the couple, actually under the influence of the HS, hear the truth of these things they are impressed to ask more, which many times leads to baptism. So hope his books and movies stay on the best seller list.

I think you seriously overestimate the influence ED has on others. And what non-lds churches teach about the lds. Lots of overgeneralization going on with no proof to back it up.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

The missionaries in question got raked over the coals by members of the church back when it happened, and IIRC there was talk of severe ecclesiastical punishment.

See, you're just not getting it. It's not about the fact that these missionaries did desecrate a Catholic shrine (and they did). It's about the fact that mormons are clearly not above having people among them that do wrong things to offend other religions. Desecration of a shrine could be called "persecution" but I am not even going to go that far. I'll leave it as an offense - a gross offense, but an offense.

But I don't hold the whole of mormonism responsible for what some mormons did. I don't say to you "WELL YOUR SIDE has PERSECUTED MY SIDE!!! SEE!!! THERE'S PHOTO EVIDENCE!!!" I don't say that because there will always e some individuals doing some things. It's about recognizing what actual persecution is and knowing that this is not actual persecution. Wrong? Yes. Offensive, even VERY offensive? Yes. Persecution? Hardly. A reason to paint the "mormon SIDE" with a broad brushstroke as constantly persecuting our "mainline Christian SIDE"? No.

Here is something else the Mormons did and still do. They baptize the dead saints and martyrs of the Armenian Church then their missionaries go to Armenia and tell Armenian Christians that the saints and martyrs of our Church are Mormons and that they can convert also to be like the saints and martyrs. Is that persecution? No. It's offensive, it's definitely wrong and deceitful, it's lying, and it's intrusive. But it's not killing or physical violence, as people in my Church have faced (to a degree that mormons never, ever have) and still face today in certain lands.

Now, if you want to continue the defense of the "missionaries in question" feel free to provide proof or evidence that they "got raked over the coals by members of the church back when it happened" and that there was ACTUAL (not "talk of") "severe ecclesiastical punishment". According to the evidence I've provided, the spokesman for the LDS church could not confirm that the missionaries were severely disciplined or what kind of discipline, or that they were removed from their missions, and he gave no comment. "Church discipline" can mean anything - a slap on the wrist, a verbal reprimand, or any other kind of toothless pseudo-punishment. But it appears there was nothing severe:

In a separate statement, LDS church authorities wrote that "those who were involved in this incident" face church discipline.

LDS church spokesman Scott Trotter said he did not know details about the discipline, whether the three still are serving missions or whether they still are members of the LDS church. Trotter said he also did not know when LDS church leaders first became aware of the pictures or whether the accusations will affect the missionary program.

When asked whether he was aware of any other acts of vandalism by missionaries against religious property, Trotter said, "I'm going to have to decline comment."

The mormon church's spokesman "did not know" a lot of "details" or other information. Isn't it a spokeman's job to KNOW these things?

But if you have evidence of what you're claiming, feel free to provide it.

If you want to keep playing your "side" vs. my "side" then feel free, because you're going to lose that game too. I've already explained why that's not the point but you want to keep going back to it and you're losing that argument very easily.

You have yet to provide any evidence of the "persecution" you claimed earlier. The best we can see from you is that people like Ed Decker say things you disagree with and it offends you or hurts your feelings so you call that "persecution". You made some spurious claims of vandalism and violence and didn't support them, instead offering some anecdotes (which don't count as valid evidence).

Your move... I have no idea what your goal is but it's not looking good if you keep going down the road you've chosen with this.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I think you seriously overestimate the influence ED has on others. And what non-lds churches teach about the lds. Lots of overgeneralization going on with no proof to back it up.

Never been to a church that spent any time on LDS. Ever


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[Ironhold]

http://religiondispatches.org/mormon-numbers-not-adding-up/

Official LDS Church statistics for 2011 count 6,144,582 Mormons in the United States in 2011, comprising about 2% of the nation’s population. Church statistics also show a 30% membership increase between 1990 and 2008—a rate double general US population growth.

But recent studies tell a different story—different because whereas LDS Church records count anyone who has ever been baptized, demographers and pollsters count only those who currently identify themselves as Mormon. Those are the parameters for the landmark Trinity College American Religious Identification Survey: a two-decade project that has produced the largest and most accurate database of self-reported religious identification ever compiled, with 100,000 randomly sampled participants. According to Rick Phillips and Ryan Cragun, the authors of a study of Mormons based on ARIS data, self-identified adult Mormons make up not 2% but rather 1.4% of the adult US population—that’s about 4.4 million LDS adults.

That's just the US numbers.

We're talking global numbers.

 

[Ironhold]

See, you're just not getting it. It's not about the fact that these missionaries did desecrate a Catholic shrine (and they did). It's about the fact that mormons are clearly not above having people among them that do wrong things to offend other religions.

Thing is, any given Mormon will tell you that what these two did was wrong.

Try getting any given non-Mormon to tell you that doing the same to an LDS structure is wrong.

 

[ToBeLoved]

The idea that Jesus would choose a foundational office like the Apostle, only to be there to set up a few churches aroung the Meditteranean is silly. The bible in fact disagrees with you.
Ephesians 4:11-14
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Who is he? It is Jesus that gave them.

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

What reason did Jesus give them:
1) for the perfecting of the saints. Looks like saints cannot be perfected without living apostles.
2) for the work of the ministry. You have to be living to do the work of the ministry.
3) for the edifying of the body of Christ. Looks like the body of Christ can not be edifed without living apostles.


13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

How long do we need the apostles and prophets?
1) till we all come in the unity of the faith. Not till the foundation is layed??
2) till we all come to the knowledge of the Son of God. That certainly has not happened yet.
3) till we are perfect men as measured by the stature of the fulness of Christ. Are we all perfect men like Christ?

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

This is the main reason we still need apostles and prophets and others.


You say: So, there are no "living Apostles". That is a misunderstanding of the office of Apostle that the Bible teaches about.

Show me 1 scripture that says that the apostles and prophets of the church of Jesus Christ was going to go away after they layed the foundation. I have shown you a scripture that proves that is not true.

Besides it is silly to think that Jesus would set up the most important office of apostle, and not preserve it, but he would preserve a much lesser office of pastor.

What do you think happens to a house when it's foundation is weakened or ruined? It falls.

The problem is that you do not know what the definition of apostle is. It is someone who ministers/shares spreads the Good News of Jesus Christ, ie missionary.

So, this office is not more important than pastor, because saints need to be built up in Christ to become missionaries. They are both important.

The Mormon use of the word 'apostle' means something different than the Bible. I said that earlier. Why do you continue thinking that office is something it is not in Christianity.

 

[tickingclocker]

Ed Decker with his books and movies has brought more people into the Mormon church than have left the Mormon church. You want to know why? Well here it is:

Normal people know Mormon people, we are their neighbors and friends. Then they go to their church and hear this expose on Mormonism from ED. It is so utterly mind-bendingly stupid that people leave the film wondering who these monsters are living next to them. So this film actually precipitates a discussion that might not have happened otherwise. When the couple, actually under the influence of the HS, hear the truth of these things they are impressed to ask more, which many times leads to baptism. So hope his books and movies stay on the best seller list.

[Citation required.]

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Ed Decker with his books and movies has brought more people into the Mormon church than have left the Mormon church. You want to know why? Well here it is:

Normal people know Mormon people, we are their neighbors and friends. Then they go to their church and hear this expose on Mormonism from ED. It is so utterly mind-bendingly stupid that people leave the film wondering who these monsters are living next to them. So this film actually precipitates a discussion that might not have happened otherwise. When the couple, actually under the influence of the HS, hear the truth of these things they are impressed to ask more, which many times leads to baptism. So hope his books and movies stay on the best seller list.

If that were true then mormons wouldn't be whining about him. I'm sure it's not true - I'm sure he sufficiently exposes the real beliefs of mormonism so that seekers see how different and strange from Christianity their real beliefs are. And I'm sure that deters people from joining the mormon religion and even leads many mormons out of their religion and to Christianity.

I think if you REALLY wanted Ed Decker's books and movies on the best seller list you would be telling ironhold to stop badmouthing him. But since you don't, it's pretty clear that your story above is just a spin that has no reality behind it.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Ephesians 4:11-14
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Who is he? It is Jesus that gave them.
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

What reason did Jesus give them:
1) for the perfecting of the saints. Looks like saints cannot be perfected without living apostles.
2) for the work of the ministry. You have to be living to do the work of the ministry.
3) for the edifying of the body of Christ. Looks like the body of Christ can not be edifed without living apostles.

Looking at your post and your answers to what is being said, is incorrect, see bold and green.

You quoted this above:

1) for the perfecting of the saints. Looks like saints cannot be perfected without living apostles.

This is not correct. Perfecting of the saints is not that people reach perfection in that they do not sin. 'Perfection' in this case is having all the resources that each saint needs to do the will of God that they are called to in their life. That may be a pastor and teacher, that may be God's Word, that may be an apostle (missionary), that is the Holy Spirit, other saints and discussion/learning (like this forum) or countless other things. It is a reference also to the same thing this verse is saying:

1 Timothy 3:15-16
15 From infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for every good work.

You also quoted this above:

3) for the edifying of the body of Christ. Looks like the body of Christ can not be edifed without living apostles.

To 'edify' is to build one up in the faith. So apostles (missionaries) build up the faith of the body of Christ, just like pastor/teachers do. The body of Christ is NOT ONLY edified by apostles (missionaries) but they are edified (built up) by those who are sharing the Good News of Jesus Christ dying for the sin of all mankind.


So, the key to understanding these verses are the two words 'perfecting' and 'edify' and what they mean.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Thing is, any given Mormon will tell you that what these two did was wrong.

Try getting any given non-Mormon to tell you that doing the same to an LDS structure is wrong.

I think that Mormons are much more involved in what they feel is victimization than the Christian church. We know our God is in control. Yes, He let's people do bad things, He gave mankind free-will and people use their free-will to do bad things. However, God says that 'vengence is Mine'. That we are not to take vengence, but let the Lord handle it. So given that, I think Christians in faith, let God fight their battles in His vengence as God's Word tells us. We are to 'forgive' and 'pray' for those who persecute us.

Romans 12:19
18 If it is possible on your part, live at peace with everyone. 19 Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but leave room for God’s wrath. For it is written: “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” 20 On the contrary, “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him a drink. For in so doing, you will heap burning coals on his head.

Deuteronomy 32:35-36
35 Vengeance is Mine, and retribution, In due time their foot will slip; For the day of their calamity is near, And the impending things are hastening upon them.' 36 "For the LORD will vindicate His people, And will have compassion on His servants, When He sees that their strength is gone

Genesis 4:15
So the LORD said to him, "Therefore whoever kills Cain, vengeance will be taken on him sevenfold " And the LORD appointed a sign for Cain, so that no one finding him would slay him.

Proverbs 20:22
Do not say, "I will repay evil"; Wait for the LORD, and He will save you.

Leviticus 19:18
'You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD.

Ephesians 4:32

Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.

Matthew 6:14-15

For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Luke 6:37

“Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;

Colossians 3:13

Bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive.


So really I think that we know very early in our salvation that vengence and non-forgiveness are not of the Lord for us to do or take action. So we do not struggle with this like the LDS do.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Ed Decker with his books and movies has brought more people into the Mormon church than have left the Mormon church. You want to know why? Well here it is:

Normal people know Mormon people, we are their neighbors and friends. Then they go to their church and hear this expose on Mormonism from ED. It is so utterly mind-bendingly stupid that people leave the film wondering who these monsters are living next to them. So this film actually precipitates a discussion that might not have happened otherwise. When the couple, actually under the influence of the HS, hear the truth of these things they are impressed to ask more, which many times leads to baptism. So hope his books and movies stay on the best seller list.

Then Ed Decker has been a positive influence for your church. So we can stop talking about him now.