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Orthodox Questions - Reformed Answers

~Anastasia~

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@Light of the East

"God hates? I thought the Bible says that God is love."

The Bible talks about hate 87 times. It's a big subject. God has judged sin to be sin so yes God is love, but it would be unbalanced to say that God is only love, for his wrath was poured out on Christ for us and "he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

Yours in the Lord,

jm

I'm sure that you are aware of course, that this interpretation is not the Orthodox understanding of God.

Thank God.

But this is your sandbox. :)
 
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JM

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I'm sure that you are aware of course, that this interpretation is not the Orthodox understanding of God.

Thank God.

But this is your sandbox. :)

Light of East's post?
 
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~Anastasia~

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I'm sorry, I don't know that I am able to go into all of it. Is this not something you have questioned on the EO forum before? I'm not here to argue, I just don't want to misrepresent what the Church teaches.

You should know that we do not accept PSA. And that we believe God IS love, and desires that ALL would repent and come to faith. We do not speculate on how many in fact will not, or who will not - that is within God's counsel alone. But it is not the wrath of God that will punish them, but rather the choices and twisted nature of those who choose to hate God.

As I said, though, I'm not looking to argue.
 
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All4Christ

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@JM - I tend to not give out links as answers, but I too struggle with explaining this properly. That said, at the risk of seeming to gloss over the issue, there is a link here: http://blogs.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxyandheterodoxy/2015/02/10/grace-wrath-orthodox-tradition/ that explains this well.

God, it is said, is the Sun of righteousness (cf. Mal. 4:2), and the rays of His supernal goodness shine down on all men alike. The soul is wax if it cleaves to God, but clay if it cleaves to matter. Which it does depends upon its own will and purpose. Clay hardens in the sun, while wax grows soft. Similarly, every soul that, despite God’s admonitions, deliberately cleaves to the material world, hardens like clay and drives itself to destruction, just as Pharaoh did (cf. Exod. 7:13). But every soul that cleaves to God is softened like wax and, receiving the impress and stamp of divine realities, it becomes “in spirit the dwelling-place of God” (Eph. 2:22). - St. Maximos the Confessor
 
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~Anastasia~

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Thanks, Laura. That is a pretty good explanation. It was far better than I could have done. I've run across others that were good as well, but they are not coming to mind right now in such a way that I'd know where to look for them. I appreciate you posting this. As you probably know, I'm not up to a lot of posting and explaining right now. God bless you, dear sister. :)
 
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~Anastasia~

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God's wrath is mentioned over 75 times in scripture. It would be cool if you explain what that means to you.
Laura's link explains fairly well. It would hopefully make more sense of the short answer I have already provided. Happy to answer further questions, if you have any, if I am able. God be with you.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Thanks, I don't mind links if you don't have time to type up a response. I'll check it out, thank you.
Time is not so much the problem as ability right now. Even so, Fr. Andrew can explain better than I can. I hope it explains somewhat.
 
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Light of the East

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JM

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This paper may have answers for you.

The River of Fire

Thanks Light of the East for the linkage. I don't really have questions, not really, but I'm always willing to learn. The answer seems to avoid the obvious though. I'll read it again, more slowly.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
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JM

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@ArmyMatt I'm not able to "teach" in the Orthodox Forum and if I tried to explain what I meant further I would probably end up breaking that rule. For anyone reading please take the time to read the passages I quote in context, consider what you have read, thank you.

The Eastern Orthodox Tradition denies the biblical teaching concerning sin. It has been stated that mankind’s natural inclination is good and to do good deeds. This runs contrary to scripture. Adam’s sin leads to death (Gen. 2:16-17) and this death passed onto all men (Rom. 5:12). The result was also spiritual death which means we must be revived by the Spirit, regenerated from a state of death unto life (Eph. 2:1-3 Col. 2:13). In Psalm 51:5 David confesses to being a sinner from conception onward and wicked from birth (Psalm 58:3). The heart of all men is evil from youth (Gen. 8:21) and filled with evil (Ecc. 9:3). To claim that our natural inclination is to do good denies the biblical teaching about the deceitfulness of the heart (Jer. 17:9) from which all of our evil acts flow (Mark 7:21-23). Mankind loves darkness (John 3:19) and is set against God from the beginning (Rom. 8:7-8). The unregenerate person cannot discern spiritual things and the Gospel, faith, love to God is spiritual (1 Cor. 2:14). This is due the natural hardness of heart and dark understanding we are born with (Eph. 4:17-19 Eph 5:8) proving that unbelievers minds and consciences are corrupt and evil (Titus 1:15). Those who are not believers do the will of the Devil (John 8:44) and follow his wicked ways (Eph 2:1-2). They have been taken by the Devil (2 Tim. 2:25-26) and are his children (1 John 3:10) for the whole world is in the power of the evil one (1 John 5:19).

The natural inclination of mankind is to sin (Roman 6:20) for we are slaves to sin (John 8:34) and to sinful lusts (Titus 3:3). This is true for all the Sons of Adam (2 Chro. 6:36), mankind is under the power of sin (Rom. 3:9-12) and unable to restrain our passions (James 3:2, 6, 8). A bad tree cannot forth good fruit (Matt. 7:16-18) or make it more acceptable. (Matt. 12:33) It must be recognized that we are not sufficient in ourselves (2 Cor. 5:5) to come to Christ, to perform acceptable works, and we differ only because of Christ (1 Cor. 4:7). One offence of the Law makes us guilty of breaking the entire Law and since we are wicked from conception (Psa. 58:3) we must acknowledge our utter wickedness before God. As you can see the Bible disagrees with the Traditional view taught in Eastern Orthodoxy.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
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All4Christ

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@JM - first, I appreciate the time you take to understand what we believe. :)

I would like to clarify one thing in regarding what you said. I wouldn't say that we don't have an inclination to sin, but rather that we do not have the guilt of Adam and Eve's sin. There is a difference in the two concepts. Also, we cannot save ourselves. Salvation comes from God and our union with Christ.

Once again, I apologize for short answers - it has been difficult for me to spend much time writing cohesive posts, though I enjoy discussing our beliefs and the beliefs of others.
 
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Light of the East

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@ArmyMatt I'm not able to "teach" in the Orthodox Forum and if I tried to explain what I meant further I would probably end up breaking that rule. For anyone reading please take the time to read the passages I quote in context, consider what you have read, thank you.

Here is my response to you. I was a PCA Calvinist for 13 years, so I do have a bit of knowledge of the "Reformed Doctrines."

The Eastern Orthodox Tradition denies the biblical teaching concerning sin.

Not true. Our understanding is based on an entirely different understanding (i.e. interpretation) of the Sacred Scriptures than Western thought. I do not mean to come off as rude, but if anything, I found when I was studying the Apostolic and Ancient faith that it is Western thought which is out of line with Scripture. I was appalled to find out how fast and loose Calvinists played with the original Greek in order to maintain their doctrine of forensic justification, for instance.

It has been stated that mankind’s natural inclination is good and to do good deeds. This runs contrary to scripture.

No it doesn't. Calvinists have yet to show one verse which shows us that the image of God was effaced from mankind's nature.

Adam’s sin leads to death (Gen. 2:16-17) and this death passed onto all men (Rom. 5:12). The result was also spiritual death which means we must be revived by the Spirit, regenerated from a state of death unto life (Eph. 2:1-3 Col. 2:13).

First grave ontological error. The West approaches sin as if sin is passed from generation to generation by sexual reproduction. This was Augustine's error, and by the time his teaching reached Constantinople and the fathers of the Church reacted in horror to it, it had already taken root. The Eastern Fathers saw sin and its effects in a different light, a distortion of our natures rather than the idea of being "dead."

In Psalm 51:5 David confesses to being a sinner from conception onward and wicked from birth (Psalm 58:3).

That is David's confession. It is dishonest to try to impose that upon all mankind. And it doesn't fit other Scriptures, which Calvinists conveniently ignore:

Abel is called "righteous."
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Not only that, but the Scriptures speak constantly of men and women who are righteous. How is this possible under the Calvinist paradigm that all are "depraved sinners?" It is only possible by ignoring texts that don't jive with your chosen understanding of man, sin, and God.


The heart of all men is evil from youth (Gen. 8:21)

Not what it says, sir! Perhaps you would do well to take off your presuppositional glasses and read what is actually said there:

Gen 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

Imagination is not the same as ontological state. From our youth we are assailed by temptation and evil thoughts, but that does not mean that the heart itself is ontologically evil. It is, in Eastern thought, inclined to evil by the effects of sin, but it is not evil itself.


and filled with evil (Ecc. 9:3). To claim that our natural inclination is to do good denies the biblical teaching about the deceitfulness of the heart (Jer. 17:9) from which all of our evil acts flow (Mark 7:21-23). Mankind loves darkness (John 3:19) and is set against God from the beginning (Rom. 8:7-8). The unregenerate person cannot discern spiritual things and the Gospel, faith, love to God is spiritual (1 Cor. 2:14).

There is no such thing as "regenerate" or "unregenerate." Another Calvinist fantasy which comes from an utter lack of proper study of the Bible. The Greek word in Scripture is "regeneration" (palinogenesis) and is found only twice in the NT. It is NOT an anthropological word. Do you see the root "genesis" there? In both instances, it has do to with the re-genesising of the cosmos. It describes Christ's work of starting a New Covenant with a new genesis which began at the Cross. (palino=again, genesis=creation). Christ is the Last Adam (1 Corin 15:45) who has "again created" the cosmos and God's creation by His work on the Cross. Calvinists are a braggy bunch who act like they are the hoi poloi of biblical interpretation, but when I actually look at their work, they should be deeply embarrassed for not finding things that the average Joe SixPack Stupid (which is me) finds with diligent study.

This is due the natural hardness of heart and dark understanding we are born with (Eph. 4:17-19 Eph 5:8)

Again, reading into the text that which you wish to prove. The text of Ephesians does not say that there is natural darkness and hardness of heart. What it does say is that Gentiles have had their understanding darkened. Scripture elsewhere states that when we are reproved and choose evil, we harden our hearts against the truth, much like what Pharaoh did. You are trying to make a case from silence.

proving that unbelievers minds and consciences are corrupt and evil (Titus 1:15).

They are evil because they have chosen evil, not because of some ontological corruption which has made them evil.

Those who are not believers do the will of the Devil (John 8:44) and follow his wicked ways (Eph 2:1-2). They have been taken by the Devil (2 Tim. 2:25-26) and are his children (1 John 3:10) for the whole world is in the power of the evil one (1 John 5:19).

The natural inclination of mankind is to sin (Roman 6:20) for we are slaves to sin (John 8:34) and to sinful lusts (Titus 3:3). This is true for all the Sons of Adam (2 Chro. 6:36), mankind is under the power of sin (Rom. 3:9-12) and unable to restrain our passions (James 3:2, 6, 8). A bad tree cannot forth good fruit (Matt. 7:16-18) or make it more acceptable. (Matt. 12:33) It must be recognized that we are not sufficient in ourselves (2 Cor. 5:5) to come to Christ, to perform acceptable works, and we differ only because of Christ (1 Cor. 4:7). One offence of the Law makes us guilty of breaking the entire Law and since we are wicked from conception (Psa. 58:3) we must acknowledge our utter wickedness before God. As you can see the Bible disagrees with the Traditional view taught in Eastern Orthodoxy.

I've said enough and I have things to do. When I return, suppose you answer me this question (I think I know the answer you will give already, and it is wrong, but I want to hear it from your lips)

How does God constantly speak of "the righteous" when all men are only evil, utterly depraved, and corrupt? How does Jesus call Abel "righteous" when according to Calvinist doctrine, Abel was an utterly depraved sinner? The same for Zacharias and Elizabeth? Such does not bode well for Calvinist teaching.

PS.....it is not the Bible you are quoting. It is the Calvinist interpretation. I always find it interesting to see two Protestants going at it with each other over some arcane point of doctrine, each claiming "the Bible says....." to defend themselves and each condemning the other.
 
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JM

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Here is my response to you. I was a PCA Calvinist for 13 years, so I do have a bit of knowledge of the "Reformed Doctrines."

Hi Light of East. This should be fun. I attended an Orthodox church for a while when I first became a Christian. The ideal found on the internet is nothing like reality you find in the local parish so, as you probably know, I really don't learn very much. I learned that to be Greek was to be Orthodox and you have to be Russian or Greek to be truly Orthodox. Oh, and "we are Roman Catholic without the Pope" was mentioned more than once. It's a little condensing to imply "I was once believed as you do now, but now I know different." lol

I will respond when I have time.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
PS: Let's be clear...you are doing exactly what you accuse me of doing. You claim I am quoting the Bible using "Calvinism" well, your doctrinal lens is from the Eastern Orthodox denomination with all it's Neoplatonism.
 
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All4Christ

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@JM - that's sad to hear that your experience was very ethnic. There are parishes that struggle with that, but not all struggle with that particular problem. For example, in my parish, we are a very diverse group of people and do not have an ethnic association...other than primarily being Americans.

Granted, most in our parish are not Greek, Russian or any other major ethnicity commonly associated with Orthodoxy. We have a common bond of being a family, and going through a similar journey to get to where we are. Now we continue our journey, with the support of our church family.
 
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