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LDS Joseph Smith's Claim of an Apostasy is a Lie

Peter1000

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Peter1000

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Actually, that's not correct. While it's most common to refer to him as "the priest" or "my priest" or something like that, the priest who is the head of the parish is the "pastor." In my church, we call that person the "Rector," and some other churches use other terms, but that's the standard Catholic word.


Here I agree with you. "Presbyter" is almost never used by Roman Catholics unless it's some scholarly paper or the root of the term "priest" is being explained.


That's right. They were the same.

FWIW, I think Via Crucis did slightly overstate his case because in the RCC it is argued that Protestant priests, such as in the Anglican churches, are not valid because they do not offer sacrifices. The comparison is thereby explicitly being made to the Levite priests of the OT offering animal sacrifice in the temple in order to put away their sins.

We of the reformed churches of course do not believe that the sacrifice of the Cross can be repeated or made ongoing or whatever other justification is handed out by the RCC when explaining the "sacrifice of the Mass" or how their presbyters are superior to any other churches' ministers.
The sacrifice of the Cross can not be repeated, I agree.

Priests in our church are the ones that bless the sacramental bread and wine/water, before the congregation each Sunday. They also assist the bishop in his duties when given specific assignments.
 
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Albion

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Catholics agree that the sacrifice of the Cross cannot be repeated.
No, they have moved from the position the church held in the 20th century, which is that the Mass is the "unbloody sacrifice of the Cross" (a repeat of the bloody one on Calvary, therefore) to one that is less Medieval in tone, saying that the sacrifice of the Cross is timeless, so that the priest now is said to "re-present" Christ to the Father--but somehow outside of time.

It's said that this sacrifice produces the same benefits as any temple sacrifice would do. Why the Father needs to have the Crucifixion presented to him somewhere in the world, continuously, is not explained.
 
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NYCGuy

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No, they have moved from the position the church held in the 20th century, which is that the Mass is the "unbloody sacrifice of the Cross" (a repeat of the bloody one on Calvary, therefore) to one that is less Medieval in tone, saying that the sacrifice of the Cross is timeless, so that the priest now is said to "re-present" Christ to the Father--but somehow outside of time.

I'd love to see evidence of this change in position, as well as evidence that it is a "repeat of the bloody one on Calvary". Catholics still believe that the Mass is the "unbloody" sacrifice of the Cross, and still also believe that that sacrifice is a re-presentation (and not a repeating or redoing) of the once and for all sacrifice of Jesus Christ. I have never seen a Catholic source or document claim that the Mass is a repeat of the bloody sacrifice of Calvary, so I would be interested to see such a source.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

"
1362 The Eucharist is the memorial of Christ's Passover, the making present and the sacramental offering of his unique sacrifice, in the liturgy of the Church which is his Body. In all the Eucharistic Prayers we find after the words of institution a prayer called the anamnesis or memorial.

1363 In the sense of Sacred Scripture the memorial is not merely the recollection of past events but the proclamation of the mighty works wrought by God for men.184 In the liturgical celebration of these events, they become in a certain way present and real. This is how Israel understands its liberation from Egypt: every time Passover is celebrated, the Exodus events are made present to the memory of believers so that they may conform their lives to them.

1364 In the New Testament, the memorial takes on new meaning. When the Church celebrates the Eucharist, she commemorates Christ's Passover, and it is made present the sacrifice Christ offered once for all on the cross remains ever present.185 "As often as the sacrifice of the Cross by which 'Christ our Pasch has been sacrificed' is celebrated on the altar, the work of our redemption is carried out."186

1365 Because it is the memorial of Christ's Passover, the Eucharist is also a sacrifice. The sacrificial character of the Eucharist is manifested in the very words of institution: "This is my body which is given for you" and "This cup which is poured out for you is the New Covenant in my blood."187 In the Eucharist Christ gives us the very body which he gave up for us on the cross, the very blood which he "poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."188

1366 The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is its memorial and because it applies its fruit:



[Christ], our Lord and God, was once and for all to offer himself to God the Father by his death on the altar of the cross, to accomplish there an everlasting redemption. But because his priesthood was not to end with his death, at the Last Supper "on the night when he was betrayed," [he wanted] to leave to his beloved spouse the Church a visible sacrifice (as the nature of man demands) by which the bloody sacrifice which he was to accomplish once for all on the cross would be re-presented, its memory perpetuated until the end of the world, and its salutary power be applied to the forgiveness of the sins we daily commit.189
1367 The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: "The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different." "And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner. . . this sacrifice is truly propitiatory."190"
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a3.htm
 
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Albion

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I'd love to see evidence of this change in position, as well as evidence that it is a "repeat of the bloody one on Calvary". Catholics still believe that the Mass is the "unbloody" sacrifice of the Cross, and still also believe that that sacrifice is a re-presentation (and not a repeating or redoing) of the once and for all sacrifice of Jesus Christ. I have never seen a Catholic source or document claim that the Mass is a repeat of the bloody sacrifice of Calvary, so I would be interested to see such a source.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:


http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a3.htm

Well, now you have an assignment if this interests you to that degree. And I commend you for that, considering that you probably were not around in that era before Vatican II.

Of course you won't find the answer by checking with New Advent or the current CCC, since they will state or paraphrase the current belief, not the one that was held a little bit earlier.
 
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NYCGuy

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Well, now you have an assignment if this interests you to that degree. And I commend you for that, considering that you probably were not around in that era before Vatican II.

Of course you won't find the answer by checking with New Advent or the current CCC, since they will state or paraphrase the current belief, not the one that was held a little bit earlier.

Haha, nice one. I'm very well read when in comes to Catholicism (including the fact that I have read and own various Catechisms used by the Catholic Church beyond the "current CCC" (which dates to 1992, i.e. the 20th century), to address that specific point), and I have never come across what you are saying. So, I'd like to see exactly what you are talking about (specifically, that Catholics believe, or have believed, that the Mass is a "repeat" of Calvary, and that there has been a change in how the Catholic Church understands the sacrificial nature of the Mass). You may PM me your sources if you don't want to post them here.
 
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Albion

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Haha, nice one. I'm very well read when in comes to Catholicism (including the fact that I have read and own various Catechisms used by the Catholic Church beyond the "current CCC" (which dates to 1992, i.e. the 20th century), to address that specific point), and I have never come across what you are saying. So, I'd like to see exactly what you are talking about (specifically, that Catholics believe, or have believed, that the Mass is a "repeat" of Calvary, and that there has been a change in how the Catholic Church understands the sacrificial nature of the Mass). You may PM me your sources if you don't want to post them here.
My sources are Roman Catholic priests. If this subject interests you, I encourage you to do your own homework. It will be much more meaningful for you if you do, rather than demand that someone else produce sources so that you can scoff at them.
 
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NYCGuy

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My sources are Roman Catholic priests. If this subject interests you, I encourage you to do your own homework. It will be much more meaningful for you if you do, rather than demand that someone else produce sources so that you can scoff at them.

This of course is a cop out, but I'll let it go.
 
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mmksparbud

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Because we are a royal "priest"hood. We are all priests unto our King (Jesus).

Not the same kind of priest of the ancient Aaronic order, who did sacrifices and other temple ordinances.
But priests that assist the bishop in his local area, that prepare the sacred sacraments, and keep the grounds nice and take confessions, and help the local people with religious issues, at time give sermons. These are all priestly duties that are done even today in the Roman Catholic church, the one church that at least say they have an unbroken chain back to Peter. So if they have "priests", there must be a reason.


Yah---ALL---
 
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mmksparbud

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I can tell you a couple of lies that Ed told in The god Makers.

He said the Mormon church's whole purpose was to create a world religion that dominated all other religions for the purpose of creating an evil empire for money and power.

Well on the one hand he is correct. The Church has been instructed to teach the gospel to all nations and to baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the HS. This world-wide effort is being accomplished and as the second coming comes ever closer, it is important that a world-wide organization exists, because Jesus will rule for a thousand years and will need that organization to help him govern.

This LDS world organization could care less about power and money, except in the accomplishing the direct order of Jesus Christ. It takes millions of dollars to create and maintain a world organization, and the Mormon church people give at least 10% of their gross income to help build this kingdom of God here on earth. It is happening, but certainly not like Ed is saying. He is telling a total lie.

The other lie that made me laugh. As I can remember, there was a small country somewhere in the world that had an evil god by the name of Mormos. This said Ed was pure evidence that Mormon was an evil god that visited JS and set up a devil church. It was a total lie.



That is more what I was looking for---But next time, maybe you could quote the actual saying?
LOL---Mormos---French country folk group from the 70's!!---
 
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Peter1000

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That is more what I was looking for---But next time, maybe you could quote the actual saying?
LOL---Mormos---French country folk group from the 70's!!---
I would have to rent the movie and watch it again. Not going to do it. I almost had a heart attack laughing so hard. Can't risk that again.
 
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mmksparbud

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I would have to rent the movie and watch it again. Not going to do it. I almost had a heart attack laughing so hard. Can't risk that again.


Oh It's from the movie---haven't seen those.

Did you read my post #566? Did you read my challenge to tickingclocker?

Not sure what: "It was just stated-try reading it not just quoting it" means??? Let me know?


You know what-----I am loosing track of what is what---there are about 4-5 threads here and after a while they all start to morph together!! However, quite often, I am asked something that is answered in the very quote that is posted!! I tried going back and finding out what all that was about and gave up. It might have been on a post that was deleted---I got a bit "short" and used the "o" word again----obtuse---got dinged for it. Me bad. I think I need another break.
 
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Ironhold

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No, it's not. You had links for others but not for Ed Decker. If there were references it wouldn't be hard for you to provide them even if you provided them before.

See this link -> http://c.web.umkc.edu/cowande/ccp/decker.htm ?

Right in the first list.

Also, I'm trying to understand what your point is about people who "persecute" mormons. Even if it's true, why is this such a problem for your religion? Are people being physically hurt or killed?

Yes.
To this day, members of the church are subject to violence and threats of violence, even here in places like America. The buildings are subject to vandalism and even arson, and LDS materials are frequently destroyed or displayed like war trophies by "Good Christians".

It's actually a common practice for "Good Christians" to physically disrupt LDS meetings and services, with this disruption often consisting of groups of people marching right on into the buildings themselves and making as big a spectacle as possible.

I mean, it wasn't that long ago that the LDS meetinghouse I went to was desecrated by people who painted a pentagram on the front lawn and then stapled a dead deer to it. The building itself, meanwhile, has been broken into so often that the building administrator has the cops on speed dial.
 
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Ironhold

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Sounds like he told his story. You did not live his life. He sinned, but we all do which is why we need a Savior.

Thing is, Decker's official story is that he had a salvific experience in which he decided to leave the LDS faith, and that his wife was ordered by the church to divorce him as punishment.

So he's still lying to people by not telling them the truth behind his exit.
 
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ToBeLoved

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What are the names of your Apostles? And don't name me the original, biblical 12 Apostles. The reason you can't include them is because we have about 1/1000 of their holy words, which are still applicable to our day, but the foundation of the biblical church was living apostles and prophets. What are the names of your living apostles?
Um... The BOM doesn't have any of the apostles holy words. Any holy words from real apostles is in our Bible.
 
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NYCGuy

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It's actually a common practice for "Good Christians" to physically disrupt LDS meetings and services, with this disruption often consisting of groups of people marching right on into the buildings themselves and making as big a spectacle as possible.

Common? Where? When I was LDS I attended meetings in New York, California, and Arizona, for years, and never had this happen.
 
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