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The Law Stands, it condemns us all.

BABerean2

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(unless it is your claim that C.H. Spurgeon, D.L. Moody, R.C Sproul are all "Judaizers" for claiming to support rather than condemn God's Ten Commandments)

In the sense that all of these ignored the Apostle Paul's words about "casting out" the Sinai covenant of bondage in Galatians chapter 4, which Peter described as a "yoke" in Acts chapter 15, the answer would be... yes.

I am not saying the 10 commandments were or are bad.
They were an essential part of God's plan.


I am not saying these men were bad.
As a matter of fact, I gladly acknowledge that they were better men than me.


However, they were wrong in that they failed to understand the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete".

I do not have to be circumcised in the flesh, because Christ was circumcised for me.

I do not have to keep the Sabbath, which is the "Sign" of the Sinai covenant, because Christ kept it for me and I rest in Him every day of the week.

I can pick up sticks, any day of the week.

I can travel more than a mile, any day of the week.

I can kindle a fire, any day of the week.

I can eat a porkchop, any day of the week.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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You should read Romans 4, 5, 6 we have been crucified with Christ already and the old man is gone....

'should' ?? that sounds presumptuous at best.

we who have been crucified with Christ already, and the old man who was a slave of sin is gone,
thankfully with great praise to our Father in heaven,
we obey Him every moment of every day willingly and joyously, LIVING IN UNION IN HIM.

just as His Word says.

like obedient children, INSTEAD OF sons of (the other father (the devil) OR) disobedience that we all once were.
 
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bugkiller

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And so also 1 John 5:3-4

Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world;

The NT writers insist that the "Commandments of God" are not a burden and do not support the "war against the LAW of God" that is so often promoted in some "camps".
Unfortunately you and John are talking about different sets of commandments.

bugkiller
 
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BobRyan

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Unfortunately you and John are talking about different sets of commandments.

bugkiller

Not in real life. In real life John knows Christ taught that the OT is "scripture" - the "Word of God" in Mark 7:6-13 and condemned those who try to set aside the "Commandments of God" as stated in Mark 7.

In real life - John knows about Eph 6:2 - that the 5th commandment is the "first commandment in that still-valid-unit of TEN" with a promise.

In real life - John knows about the "He who said" of James 2.

In real life - John knows that "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship" just as we see in Is 66:23.

In real life - John knows that Christ said "The Sabbath was made FOR mankind" Mark 2:27
 
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BobRyan

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I love this verse!

Jesus makes it clear that ALL of the Law and the prophets depend on loving God and loving your neighbor.
Without loving God and loving our neighbor, our obedience is completely worthless.
Obedience is 100% dependent on our love for God. In fact they go hand in hand.

New International Version
All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

New Living Translation
The entire law and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments."

English Standard Version
On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

That is true - excellent point. It just goes to show that "Bible details matter"!

I agree 100% and that includes not ignoring the scripture that does not agree with our doctrine.

Glad that there is finally a point of agreement.

Does not seem to happen that often between you and me.


Any doctrine which must ignore some scripture to make it work, is a doctrine of ignorance.

So far, I have not seen Judaizers on this board.

(unless it is your claim that C.H. Spurgeon, D.L. Moody, R.C Sproul are all "Judaizers" for claiming to support rather than condemn God's Ten Commandments)

In the sense that all of these ignored the Apostle Paul's words about "casting out" the Sinai covenant


They do not ignore Paul -- they simply refuse to misread him as was pointed out in Galatians 4 already.

Those who "imagine" that Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself" is "Sinai covenant abolished" -- simply misread Paul.

Those who "imagine" that Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart" is "Sinai covenant abolished" - simply misread Paul

And even the majority of pro-sunday Bible scholars know it.
 
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bugkiller

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Not in real life. In real life John knows Christ taught that the OT is "scripture" - the "Word of God" in Mark 7:6-13 and condemned those who try to set aside the "Commandments of God" as stated in Mark 7.

In real life - John knows about Eph 6:2 - that the 5th commandment is the "first commandment in that still-valid-unit of TEN" with a promise.

In real life - John knows about the "He who said" of James 2.

In real life - John knows that "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship" just as we see in Is 66:23.

In real life - John knows that Christ said "The Sabbath was made FOR mankind" Mark 2:27
Well you quoted anything but John to make your point. John 15:10 is all that is needed to prove you're incorrect.

bugkiller
 
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bugkiller

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That is true - excellent point. It just goes to show that "Bible details matter"!



Glad that there is finally a point of agreement.

Does not seem to happen that often between you and me.


Any doctrine which must ignore some scripture to make it work, is a doctrine of ignorance.

So far, I have not seen Judaizers on this board.

(unless it is your claim that C.H. Spurgeon, D.L. Moody, R.C Sproul are all "Judaizers" for claiming to support rather than condemn God's Ten Commandments)



They do not ignore Paul -- they simply refuse to misread him as was pointed out in Galatians 4 already.
Yes we refuse to misread Paul.
Those who "imagine" that Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself" is "Sinai covenant abolished" -- simply misread Paul.
Paul or Jesus?
Those who "imagine" that Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart" is "Sinai covenant abolished" - simply misread Paul
Paul or Jesus
And even the majority of pro-sunday Bible scholars know it.
Hogwash!!!!

bugkiller
 
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ToBeLoved

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'should' ?? that sounds presumptuous at best.

we who have been crucified with Christ already, and the old man who was a slave of sin is gone,
thankfully with great praise to our Father in heaven,
we obey Him every moment of every day willingly and joyously, LIVING IN UNION IN HIM.

just as His Word says.

like obedient children, INSTEAD OF sons of (the other father (the devil) OR) disobedience that we all once were.
So your agreeing with me. Your second sentence does.

The other stuff, I'm not sure what you are saying.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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So your agreeing with me. Your second sentence does.
No. I agree with Scripture. If you do also, well and good, then we both agree with Scripture.
As for other stuff(motives, purpose, plan, goals) , how can I know unless you say ? (Unless God reveals).
I can't read your heart nor your mind. (and don't even think it would be right at all to try )
 
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BobRyan

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I love this verse!

Jesus makes it clear that ALL of the Law and the prophets depend on loving God and loving your neighbor.
Without loving God and loving our neighbor, our obedience is completely worthless.
Obedience is 100% dependent on our love for God. In fact they go hand in hand.

New International Version
All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

New Living Translation
The entire law and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments."

English Standard Version
On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

That is true - excellent point. It just goes to show that "Bible details matter"!

I agree 100% and that includes not ignoring the scripture that does not agree with our doctrine.

Glad that there is finally a point of agreement.

Does not seem to happen that often between you and me.


Any doctrine which must ignore some scripture to make it work, is a doctrine of ignorance.

So far, I have not seen Judaizers on this board.

(unless it is your claim that C.H. Spurgeon, D.L. Moody, R.C Sproul are all "Judaizers" for claiming to support rather than condemn God's Ten Commandments)

In the sense that all of these ignored the Apostle Paul's words about "casting out" the Sinai covenant

They do not ignore Paul -- they simply refuse to misread him as was pointed out in Galatians 4 already.

Those who "imagine" that Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself" is "Sinai covenant abolished" -- simply misread Paul.

Those who "imagine" that Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart" is "Sinai covenant abolished" - simply misread Paul

And even the majority of pro-sunday Bible scholars know it.

Yes we refuse to misread Paul.Paul or Jesus?Paul or JesusHogwash!!!!

bugkiller

you seem to be trying to work something out.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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tzadik said:
I love this verse!

Jesus makes it clear that ALL of the Law and the prophets depend on loving God and loving your neighbor.
Without loving God and loving our neighbor, our obedience is completely worthless.
Obedience is 100% dependent on our love for God. In fact they go hand in hand.
BobRyan
That is true - excellent point. It just goes to show that "Bible details matter"!
BABerean2 said:
I agree 100% and that includes not ignoring the scripture that does not agree with our doctrine.
BobRyan
Glad that there is finally a point of agreement. Does not seem to happen that often between you and me.
Isn't that nice. Don't expect that very often.

And why did you quote yours and his post 3 times? Looks like spamming me to me.......

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...-condemns-us-all.7950298/page-5#post-69747803

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...-condemns-us-all.7950298/page-5#post-69749070

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...-condemns-us-all.7950298/page-6#post-69751434



.
 
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BobRyan

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... to answer the question about why irrefutable details do not vanish from the conversation as soon as the first post comes along and fails to refute those irrefutable details...well it turns out that skimming past all the details in the conversation is not the "grand solution" that some would imagine to themselves.
 
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Razare

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If God's Spirit living inside of you "obeys and performs" commandments on your behalf, what commandments (if any) are you supposed to DO yourself?

Live in Christ, and from me comes faith, hope, and love which are the three things that last all eternity. The law was forever made to pass away.

Hebrews 8:13 - 13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

The law has not vanished away, it is ready to vanish away, for we are given a new heaven and a new earth.

For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. - Matthew 5:18

So the great things of God which last forever, the things above we are to set our eyes upon, are not the Friday Evening to Saturday Sabbath, this is not a heavenly thing but a lesser thing given to men to teach us about heavenly things.

Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. - Colossians 3:2

Three things will last forever--faith, hope, and love--and the greatest of these is love. - 1 Corinthians 13:13

... Against such things there is no law. - Galatians 5:23

Law here includes the Sabbath. There is no Sabbath against the law of love, because love was always greater than the Mosaic laws in the Torah. God does not change, however, God was always greater than the law he gave... and if you have to pick, faith, hope, and love vs. the laws given to Moses, you pick the former, which are contrary to the law of self-works, but the law points to them by pointing out our failures.

Does God's Spirit living in side of you make it so that you don't have to physically obey any of God's commandments?

Think of walking on a tightrope of God's grace. If you are on the tightrope, the law can't apply because you are above it. Walking on the tightrope is love. I certainly fail to love, and I certainly abandon God to return to his commandments which point out my sin. But the commandments which point to my sin, in no way give me any ability to walk on the tightrope. So when I fall off the tightrope, it is not productive to go through the laundry list of sins I have done. I repent to God about them, but I don't stay fallen off the tightrope. God has called me to greater things. When you're on the trightrope, there is no law, and you have the love of God expressed through you by Jesus.

If I abandon love, to focus on following the commands of God, I am disobedient to God, because I have fallen from grace, and abandoned the obedience of faith.

Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name's sake. - Romans 1:5

You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. - Galatians 5:4

Where are you getting any of the above information from?

By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. - Genesis 2:2

The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. - Genesis 2:15

So Adam worked on the 7th day, the first Sabbath day ordained by God. The 7th day lasts until Adam fell, it is all one Sabbath because it was Eden.

Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience. - Hebrews 4:11

Hebrews 4:11 indicates we labor every day, to enter the sabbath, but this is clearly not the sabbath given in the law of Moses, but the true promise of the Sabbath, of which the Mosaic Sabbath was a type and a shadow, but not the true thing.

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. - Colossians 2:16-17

So I will go to church multiple times a week when I can, not just Sundays. I pray to God often.

God says, remember His Holy Sabbath day and keep it sanctified. 6 days you should work, but not on the 7th.

I don't work when I am in Christ. It's not really "working". It looks like work in the natural human realm but spiritually, I am delivered from Adam's fall where he had to toil and sweat.

It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return." - Genesis 3:19-20

It is also true that Christians never die because the doctrine of Christianity is that we fall asleep when we are believers. This is not conceit nor silliness on our part. We are supposed to believe this. Though we see dust on the ground, those redeemed by the faith Abraham had, are those who are continually alive and not dead.

Now about the dead rising--have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the account of the burning bush, how God said to him, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!" - Mark 12:26-27

If I am presently delivered from the death Adam brought into the world, then I am also presently delivered from all the curses. This includes the curse of toil. The curse of toil that Jews and all men lived under is one of the reasons the Sabbath was given where men toil 6 days and do not work on the 7th.

Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. - Mark 2:27

I am redeemed from the fall of Adam, and so it is as though I live in the garden of Eden by covenant of God in Christ. This means I "work on the Sabbath"... just as Adam worked on the 7th day, having been born on the 6th. But this work is a blessing and not a curse, because I was delivered from the fall. The rules are simply different.

God's various laws, such as the law of faith vs. the laws Moses gave, have different stipulations depending upon your circumstances. The Mosaic law was only given to Jews for example. You could become a Jew, but if you were not a Jew, it never applied to you. The law of faith only applies to those who have faith.

God also has different covenants in scripture...

Genesis 15 - Abraham's Covenant ordained in blood

Exodus 24:8 - Mosaic Covenant Ordained in blood to Jews only, it is a different covenant than Genesis 15, and a different covenant than the one Christ made at the cross

2 Corinthians 5:19 - For God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, no longer counting people's sins against them. And he gave us this wonderful message of reconciliation. <--- This is the covenant on the cross, which was the ultimate fulfillment of the Genesis 15 covenant. It is a greater covenant than Genesis 15 and Exodus 24:8. This covenant was never given to Abraham, Abraham was only given revelation of it when he went to sacrifice his son... however, Abraham was promised this covenant would be enacted through him.

You say "working is permitted on the Sabbath".

For Christians. For Jews no. If you are not a Christian but a Jew and reject Jesus as the Messiah, please follow the Sabbath. But I am not a minister of the Mosaic law... I am specifically instructed by God not to teach on the Mosaic Sabbath as a way to maintain or attain righteous living.

He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. - 2 Corinthians 3:6

According to the Holy Spirit and revelation given by Paul, I am an incompetent minister of the letter of the Mosaic law. What this means that this incompetence is not sin on my part, but opposition by God himself to teach the Mosaic law or live under it.

If I am an incompetent minister of the Mosaic Sabbath law, then why would I ever tell anyone to follow it?

And if I am incompetent by the power of God to not preach on that subject, why would I sin against God and disobey him, presuming I can do something in my own strength when he has said I cannot?
 
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Razare

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And in my post, I gave is good revelation God gave me.

The "old man" who dies but still clings to our souls because our minds are not renewed will either cling to the law and unbelieve what I said (opposition to faith by focusing on morality self-works).

Or the "old man" will sit their applauding what I said as a way to continue to buffer yourself from having to address sins in your life. Now, I have often found myself in this situation... but I just spent 3 days worshiping Christ at a Christian concert, and God knocks this filthy thinking out of your soul when you are willing to be vulnerable with God and trust him.

We got hurts in us is why we cling to sin, and it is why we use grace as our excuse to continue living in sin. But God will heal those hurts because he loves us. And when the hurts go, so does our unbelief, and the Holy Spirit can flow out of us in love.

People who use grace as an excuse to sin... basically they are still under the Mosaic law, even if they say they are not. The problem is they wont address their hurts, or their faith is still growing inside their thinking, so God hasn't yet broke the yokes and bondages oppressing them.

Trusting Christ and his word is what frees us from this negativity where we would want to use grace to defend ourselves against the sin in our life. Certainly, it's true, we're under grace and this is the basis of righteousness. Yet, that grace can grow and grow! God's glory becomes greater and greater in our life, and when this happens sins fall off of us supernaturally that we no longer live in them because the power within us (God's love) has freed us from them.
 
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Razare

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Unfortunately for you, the text clearly tells us that it's the Same Law ... "My Law (Torah)" is always translated as the one and only Instructions of the Father. There's no way around it.

That's where you're screwing up.

Christianity has screwed this up in my view, because Christianity is trying to use a modern Jewish interpretation of viewpoint upon the Torah. To a Jew, the Torah is one thing and only one thing. But remember, these are the Jews who do not accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah! Meaning their interpretation is dubious.

"The Torah" is actually a series of covenants and laws given to men, it is not 1 law, nor one set of codes of morality. It is a progression of covenants and various laws which point to God who made all laws and covenants. And if God is the maker of the law and maker of the covenant, He is greater than them.

Another covenant I forgot to mention was the Adam covenant.

The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. - Genesis 3:21

When God butchers an animal, this is enacting a covenant in this situation. It was a sacrifice, given to Adam and Eve, so it is a covenant available to all men who have ever lived.

But the covenant of Exodus 24:8 for example, only applies to the men and women Moses sprinkled the blood upon, and to their descendants.

And so we can say, "God never changes"... but the nature of God himself differentiates and separates people to follow different requirements. This is what it means to be Holy even... the word Holy is separated, meaning God recognizes one group differently than another as a called out group.

Jews were called out in a different covenant than the covenant of Abraham, and the Covenant of Adam, and the Covenant of
Noah proclaimed with the rainbow. The rules given to Adam and Noah were less burdensome than the rules given to the Jews. Some covenants are linked. Abraham's Genesis 15 covenant applied to Jews, but only some received it. The Genesis 15 covenant applies to all Christians. Even the Exodus 24:8 covenant applies to Christians, but the failure of our disobedience against God's law is forever reconciled through the cross, and so the stipulations of that covenant had buried in it where by the curses of disobedience we were forever freed from... Galatians 3:13 and the curses of Deuteronomy 28.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Live in Christ, and from me comes faith, hope, and love which are the three things that last all eternity. The law was forever made to pass away.

Hebrews 8:13 - 13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

The law has not vanished away, it is ready to vanish away, for we are given a new heaven and a new earth.

For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. - Matthew 5:18

So the great things of God which last forever, the things above we are to set our eyes upon, are not the Friday Evening to Saturday Sabbath, this is not a heavenly thing but a lesser thing given to men to teach us about heavenly things.

Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. - Colossians 3:2

Three things will last forever--faith, hope, and love--and the greatest of these is love. - 1 Corinthians 13:13

... Against such things there is no law. - Galatians 5:23

Law here includes the Sabbath. There is no Sabbath against the law of love, because love was always greater than the Mosaic laws in the Torah. God does not change, however, God was always greater than the law he gave... and if you have to pick, faith, hope, and love vs. the laws given to Moses, you pick the former, which are contrary to the law of self-works, but the law points to them by pointing out our failures.



Think of walking on a tightrope of God's grace. If you are on the tightrope, the law can't apply because you are above it. Walking on the tightrope is love. I certainly fail to love, and I certainly abandon God to return to his commandments which point out my sin. But the commandments which point to my sin, in no way give me any ability to walk on the tightrope. So when I fall off the tightrope, it is not productive to go through the laundry list of sins I have done. I repent to God about them, but I don't stay fallen off the tightrope. God has called me to greater things. When you're on the trightrope, there is no law, and you have the love of God expressed through you by Jesus.

If I abandon love, to focus on following the commands of God, I am disobedient to God, because I have fallen from grace, and abandoned the obedience of faith.

Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name's sake. - Romans 1:5

You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. - Galatians 5:4



By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. - Genesis 2:2

The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. - Genesis 2:15

So Adam worked on the 7th day, the first Sabbath day ordained by God. The 7th day lasts until Adam fell, it is all one Sabbath because it was Eden.

Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience. - Hebrews 4:11

Hebrews 4:11 indicates we labor every day, to enter the sabbath, but this is clearly not the sabbath given in the law of Moses, but the true promise of the Sabbath, of which the Mosaic Sabbath was a type and a shadow, but not the true thing.

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. - Colossians 2:16-17

So I will go to church multiple times a week when I can, not just Sundays. I pray to God often.



I don't work when I am in Christ. It's not really "working". It looks like work in the natural human realm but spiritually, I am delivered from Adam's fall where he had to toil and sweat.

It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return." - Genesis 3:19-20

It is also true that Christians never die because the doctrine of Christianity is that we fall asleep when we are believers. This is not conceit nor silliness on our part. We are supposed to believe this. Though we see dust on the ground, those redeemed by the faith Abraham had, are those who are continually alive and not dead.

Now about the dead rising--have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the account of the burning bush, how God said to him, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!" - Mark 12:26-27

If I am presently delivered from the death Adam brought into the world, then I am also presently delivered from all the curses. This includes the curse of toil. The curse of toil that Jews and all men lived under is one of the reasons the Sabbath was given where men toil 6 days and do not work on the 7th.

Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. - Mark 2:27

I am redeemed from the fall of Adam, and so it is as though I live in the garden of Eden by covenant of God in Christ. This means I "work on the Sabbath"... just as Adam worked on the 7th day, having been born on the 6th. But this work is a blessing and not a curse, because I was delivered from the fall. The rules are simply different.

God's various laws, such as the law of faith vs. the laws Moses gave, have different stipulations depending upon your circumstances. The Mosaic law was only given to Jews for example. You could become a Jew, but if you were not a Jew, it never applied to you. The law of faith only applies to those who have faith.

God also has different covenants in scripture...

Genesis 15 - Abraham's Covenant ordained in blood

Exodus 24:8 - Mosaic Covenant Ordained in blood to Jews only, it is a different covenant than Genesis 15, and a different covenant than the one Christ made at the cross

2 Corinthians 5:19 - For God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, no longer counting people's sins against them. And he gave us this wonderful message of reconciliation. <--- This is the covenant on the cross, which was the ultimate fulfillment of the Genesis 15 covenant. It is a greater covenant than Genesis 15 and Exodus 24:8. This covenant was never given to Abraham, Abraham was only given revelation of it when he went to sacrifice his son... however, Abraham was promised this covenant would be enacted through him.



For Christians. For Jews no. If you are not a Christian but a Jew and reject Jesus as the Messiah, please follow the Sabbath. But I am not a minister of the Mosaic law... I am specifically instructed by God not to teach on the Mosaic Sabbath as a way to maintain or attain righteous living.

He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. - 2 Corinthians 3:6

According to the Holy Spirit and revelation given by Paul, I am an incompetent minister of the letter of the Mosaic law. What this means that this incompetence is not sin on my part, but opposition by God himself to teach the Mosaic law or live under it.

If I am an incompetent minister of the Mosaic Sabbath law, then why would I ever tell anyone to follow it?

And if I am incompetent by the power of God to not preach on that subject, why would I sin against God and disobey him, presuming I can do something in my own strength when he has said I cannot?

Nice post.


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bugkiller

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Not in real life. In real life John knows Christ taught that the OT is "scripture" - the "Word of God" in Mark 7:6-13 and condemned those who try to set aside the "Commandments of God" as stated in Mark 7.

In real life - John knows about Eph 6:2 - that the 5th commandment is the "first commandment in that still-valid-unit of TEN" with a promise.

In real life - John knows about the "He who said" of James 2.

In real life - John knows that "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship" just as we see in Is 66:23.

In real life - John knows that Christ said "The Sabbath was made FOR mankind" Mark 2:27
You provided nothing from John to back your false claim.

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bugkiller

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That is true - excellent point. It just goes to show that "Bible details matter"!



Glad that there is finally a point of agreement.

Does not seem to happen that often between you and me.


Any doctrine which must ignore some scripture to make it work, is a doctrine of ignorance.

So far, I have not seen Judaizers on this board.

(unless it is your claim that C.H. Spurgeon, D.L. Moody, R.C Sproul are all "Judaizers" for claiming to support rather than condemn God's Ten Commandments)



They do not ignore Paul -- they simply refuse to misread him as was pointed out in Galatians 4 already.

Those who "imagine" that Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself" is "Sinai covenant abolished" -- simply misread Paul.

Those who "imagine" that Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart" is "Sinai covenant abolished" - simply misread Paul

And even the majority of pro-sunday Bible scholars know it.
I really love it when you make such a statement as - Any doctrine which must ignore some scripture to make it work, is a doctrine of ignorance.

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bugkiller

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... to answer the question about why irrefutable details do not vanish from the conversation as soon as the first post comes along and fails to refute those irrefutable details...well it turns out that skimming past all the details in the conversation is not the "grand solution" that some would imagine to themselves.
Those irrefutable details are only irrefutable because you ignore the refutation.

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