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Is God a liar?

Hieronymus

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Personal attacks only demean the attacker.
The attacker apologises.
But you just repeat the naturalistic gospel, for which there is no evidence.
You have apparently ignored the arguments of your fellow Christians.
So yeah, that's rather frustrating.
I know you have been told that new traits can't be introduced gradually, but it's simply not true.
O but it is, and the why is simple:

Any system is irreducibly complex.
It only functions when complete.
Therefore, incomplete systems do not function.
Now there is no evidence of organisms sporting incomplete systems, therefore there is no evidence of transitional species / kinds (terms and definitions may vary).

Now you probably have heard people boast that irriducible complexity is refuted.
This is of course only desperate bluff, for we all can think of numerous systems that stop functioning when you remove parts.

You probably (no offence) don't realise how many complex systems an organism incorporates.
Even a "simple" single celled organism has numerous systems incorporated to form the total system that is the organism.

Often, the intermediate forms have adaptations utterly different than the adaptation of the final form.
You should understand after my short explanation above that they are not transitional organisms.

People don't realize a cell is the most complex unit known to exist.
We just take it for granted as something normal, even simple.

Ask yourself why you would subscribe to far fetched naturalistic vague models when you believe GOD = GOD.
 
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Hieronymus

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No. I didn't come across the theory of evolution until I was older and already knew that a literal interpretation of Genesis was nonsense.
So how did you "know" Genesis is nonsense?
Because naturalism is the mandatory religion, under the guise of "science".
And most of us grew up with it, so we all know where it's coming from.

You see, science has a natural paradigm.
But naturalism pronounces that paradigm to be all there is.
This is why they have no explanation for origins of the natural (universe including life)
 
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Hieronymus

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Yes, that is one of the lists I was referring to. But be careful who you associate with; I don't know what your views are exactly, but Pitman is more an ID guy than a Creationist.
ID = Creation, but not necessarily Biblical Creation.
 
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Hieronymus

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Never mind.

The Mayr quote and the Gould quote appear on most Creationist lists of mined quotes. If you give me one or two more I can probably figure out which list you're using.
Aha, so when they're quotes you don't like, they're suddenly "mined"?
 
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Speedwell

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So how did you "know" Genesis is nonsense?
Because naturalism is the mandatory religion, under the guise of "science".
And most of us grew up with it, so we all know where it's coming from.

You see, science has a natural paradigm.
But naturalism pronounces that paradigm to be all there is.
This is why they have no explanation for origins of the natural (universe including life)
Genesis is not nonsense--I was brought up to believe that it is part of the divinely inspired Word of God.

However I was not brought up to believe that it had to be either 100% accurate literal history or it could only be a LIE.

(a proposition Creationists present as self-evident and seem to be unwilling to discuss or defend, but only to shout).
 
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Speedwell

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Now you probably have heard people boast that irriducible complexity is refuted.
This is of course only desperate bluff, for we all can think of numerous systems that stop functioning when you remove parts.

All that is necessary to show is that there is a step-by-step evolutionary sequence of variations leading to the system.

Logically, a plausible hypothetical pathway is sufficient even if the actual sequence is unknown, because the ID argument is that there is no possible pathway.

This has been accomplished, as far as I am aware, with all cases of supposed "irreducible complexity" yet brought forward.
 
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Speedwell

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Aha, so when they're quotes you don't like, they're suddenly "mined"?
No, only when they are misused as proof of something the author did not intend. While they were alive, Both Mayr and Gould complained bitterly, publically and at length about their words being used as you did.
 
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Grafted In

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The fossil record doesn't support the idea of distinct unrelated worlds, but rather one world that has gradually changed.

I appreciate the fact that you are trying to come up with a hypothesis that accommodates the evidence.

A constant renewing of things does not rule out the posibility that He, in times past, has renewed the earth with similar, but not identical plant and animal life.
These renewings may very well have included human life.
I'm not suggesting that I am correct....we simply at this time do not know.
However, if any proof of the subject is found by scientists, your assumptions would certainly have the advantage over me
 
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Meowzltov

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But you just repeat the naturalistic gospel, for which there is no evidence.
You have apparently ignored the arguments of your fellow Christians.
I haven't ignored them at all. They used to be my arguments.

Just because naturalists use argument X doesn't mean argument X is wrong. Guilt by association is a fallacy. You have to dispute argument X on its own merits. In this case, the arguments are sound.

38% of Evangelicals such as yourself accept Evolution over Creationism (some naturalistic, others theistic)--your position is FAR from unanimous. In my case, 66% of Catholics accept Evolution over Creationism.

http://religionnews.com/2016/06/11/why-some-evangelicals-changed-their-minds-about-evolution/
 
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Hieronymus

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I haven't ignored them at all. They used to be my arguments.
So what went wrong? ;)
38% of Evangelicals such as yourself accept Evolution over Creationism (some naturalistic, others theistic)--your position is FAR from unanimous. In my case, 66% of Catholics accept Evolution over Creationism.
Irrelevant.
 
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Hieronymus

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No, only when they are misused as proof of something the author did not intend. While they were alive, Both Mayr and Gould complained bitterly, publically and at length about their words being used as you did.
Yeah, like they meant something entirely different... :D
 
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Hieronymus

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All that is necessary to show is that there is a step-by-step evolutionary sequence of variations leading to the system.
And they can't, so there's no evidence, it is therefore a belief.
It's naturalism.
Logically, a plausible hypothetical pathway is sufficient
No, not if you claim it to be factual and scientific.
Itś a belief, it's naturalism.
They won't allow a divine foot in the door.
even if the actual sequence is unknown,
A belief it is then...
because the ID argument is that there is no possible pathway.
Because there isn't.
This has been accomplished, as far as I am aware,
This is what they boast.
But it is not so.
And when you push on with unanswerable questions, they escape to: "O, but we haven't discovered everything yet."
But the whole concept is outdated.
They cling to a bankrupt 19th century theosophically inspired conjecture.
But we (mankind) have discovered so much complexity in the last century, efficiency and genius, like DNA for example, of which naturalists can not explain the origins.
I think you have no idea of the specialized proteins that are needed, and that can not form simultaniously in the same environment, let alone end up in a cell doing its thing.

Look, naturalists are atheists. It's almost the same thing: No intelligence behind the origins of life and the universe.
With all due respect, why would a theist subscribe to atheistic beliefs?
It just doesn't make sense.
Is the peer pressure really that high?
Is the lobby behind it really that impressive?
Is the loudness of their preachings even relevant?
Don't you know the endeavour and its propaganda is all dependent on finance?
Do you think Christians facilitate this, or would it be naturalists / atheists?
Or some other agenda perhaps?
The elite of this world are no Christians you know, but they are religious.
...but that's a whole different perspective on the matter, never mind that for now..
with all cases of supposed "irreducible complexity" yet brought forward.
Irreducible complexity is not 'supposed', it is factual and logical, even simple to understand.
I'm sure you don't need examples of IC.

For the record, the hardest thing about becoming a creationist is to believe the world is selling us the biggest lie ever told.
That's just hard to believe, especially since the scientific community is said to be unanimous about this.
It's not a nice thought we may be living in a world where lies rule.
This is also the frustrating thing, because we all have problems acknowledging that.
 
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Meowzltov

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And they can't, so there's no evidence, it is therefore a belief.
Baloney!!!!!! There is overwhelming evidence. You can repeat your denial til the cows come home and it won't make it true.

The majority of folks who accept evolution are not naturalists, so stop equating evolution with naturalism.
 
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Meowzltov

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Seriously. When I was a creationist, I didn't even know what scientific method was or how it worked. I had never studied genetics. I had never studied the fossil records of human evolution. I had never studied how evolution effected other sciences besides biology such as the theory of plate tectonics in geology. Accepting evolution was simply a matter of coming to terms with the evidence.

The class that tipped the balance was when we learned about Homo Habilus, and discussed the argument over whether the fossils were rightly classified as genus homo, or whether that had been a mistake. IOW, ape or man? And then suddenly it dawned on me... if evolution were true, we would have to have arguments like this, transitional forms that don't neatly fit into one category or another.
 
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Speedwell

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Look, naturalists are atheists. It's almost the same thing: No intelligence behind the origins of life and the universe.
With all due respect, why would a theist subscribe to atheistic beliefs?
The question is, why have you got such a bean up your nose about evolution?

Of all the good reasons not to believe that Genesis is either 100% accurate literal history or else a LIE, evolution isn't even near the top of the list.
 
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Revealing Times

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Let me give my own answer to my question, and perhaps that will clear things up a bit.

1. God is not a liar. "God is not a man that he should lie." Numbers 23:19
2. The earth has a plethora of overwhelming evidence i.e. that it is ancient: radiometric dating, ice layering, meteor crators, continental drift, Y-chromosomal ancestry, seeing starlight that has taken billions of years to reach us, and so much more. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evidence_against_a_recent_creation
3. If the earth were young, it would mean that God created it with all this "evidence" in tow, thus creating lies ....
THEREFORE
4. Young Earth Creationism cannot be true because it makes God a liar.
"yom" is a period of time, not always a day. I have done an in depth study, of science and Religion, then I tried to merge the two together using logic. For starters, God confused us at Babel, so He doesn't necessarily want us to know all that He knows. If the Universe is 14.7 billion years old and the Earth only 4.5 billion years old, why would anyone assume the First Day was 24 Hours ? My theory is below, I am not stating it is a fact, just my deductive reasoning.

God Created the Universe in His own time frame. (There is no time in Gods realm.) Looking to the WMAP, (NASA Program) the way the Universe is Mapped by the Microwaves, then reading the Creation Story, it all fits. Anyone that thinks God was speaking of Earth Rotations (Days) seems off kilter, the Earth was not even around until the Universe was 9.2 billion years old !!

God has no time in His Realm. Causation came about with the Creation of our universe. My "TIME THEORY" is based on study not just guess work. Since the Universe was created, and Earth was Formed 9.2 billion years latter, then the first day had to be 9.2 billion years Old.................................BECAUSE

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and Darkness was on he face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

{{ Notice, the Earth was void and without form, that is because God only Spoke it into Creation, it actuality it took 9.2 Billion years to form. Notice it says there was darkness on the face of the deep ? Well the WMAP/NASA Project, which has mapped out the Universe with Microwaves, says there was darkness on the face of the deep. (Big Bang, followed by Inflation, followed by Cosmic Microwave background where after 380,000 years loose electrons cool enough to combine with protons. The Universe becomes Transparent to Light. The Microwave background begins to shine. Then the dark ages/clouds of dark hydrogen gas cool and coalesce. }}

{{ The first stars appear..........Gas Clouds collapse, the fusion of Stars begin, the first of which appears at about 400 million years after the Big Bang. SO............When the Bible says Darkness was on the face of the deep, God knew exactly what was happening in the very beginning !! }}

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. {{ The First day was Darkness and Light. People have often confused this, but God is saying there was Darkness, then Light (Stars formed at 400 million years).......That was the first day. It lasted 9.2 Billion years, give or take a few million years....LOL. }}

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. {{ How does a firmament (Heaven/Air) divide the waters from the waters ? Well, God placed waters on the Earth, and the Sky has water in the Air, that's why it Rains !! This was the Second Day, so it couldn't have Started any sooner than 4.5 Billion years ago. And the Grasses and Herbs began to appear at about 900 Million years B.C. according to my study of Science books, so the Second Day lasted from 4.5 Billion years until about 900 Million years B.C. And as God stated, that was the 2ND DAY. }}

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. 11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

{{ So, since the Grasses and herb yielding fruits came about around 900 Million Years B.C. to 800 Million years B.C. that becomes the 3RD DAY. }}

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

{Seems God set the Seasons, and that was the fourth day. Probably happened at about the same time as the 3rd day, fairly close imho. And the stars started lighting the Earth over time when their light reached the Earth.}

20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. 21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

{{ Through a study of Science books and such it is determined that the Sea Creatures have been around much longer than the Land Creatures, and that jibes with Gods account here..............About 500 Million years ago the Sea Creatures and fowl came along, and that was the 5TH DAY. It lasted until about 250 million years B.C. }}

24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. 29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

{{{ Through studying Science again the land animals/creatures started showing up around 250 million years ago. So this was the 6TH day........From 250 million years B.C. until 6000 years B.C. when God created man and rested from His creation. }}}

We are now in Gods day of rest or the 7TH DAY............

This actually all fits together in Gods timeline. It can not be perfect by the numbers of course, but it is an approximation that makes more sense than an earth that is only 6000 years old. Or in believing a universe that magically appeared from nothing.

Many seem think that man is much older than 6000 years old, I ask, why is it nor recorded in history ? Secondly, Man became man when God imparted him with a Soul, and put His Spirit in us. Any Animal created before this impartation that made us into human beings (or made us in the image of God) , was not a Human Being as we are known today. They would just be another animal, nothing more, nothing less.


Again, this is only my theory from studying both science and the bible. God Bless
 
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Grafted In

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The fossil record doesn't support the idea of distinct unrelated worlds, but rather one world that has gradually changed.

I appreciate the fact that you are trying to come up with a hypothesis that accommodates the evidence.

Well, I do what little I can with what little gray matter I do have.
 
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Meowzltov

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"yom" is a period of time, not always a day. I have done an in depth study, of science and Religion, then I tried to merge the two together using logic. For starters, God confused us at Babel, so He doesn't necessarily want us to know all that He knows. If the Universe is 14.7 billion years old and the Earth only 4.5 billion years old, why would anyone assume the First Day was 24 Hours ? My theory is below, I am not stating it is a fact, just my deductive reasoning.

God Created the Universe in His own time frame. (There is no time in Gods realm.) Looking to the WMAP, (NASA Program) the way the Universe is Mapped by the Microwaves, then reading the Creation Story, it all fits. Anyone that thinks God was speaking of Earth Rotations (Days) seems off kilter, the Earth was not even around until the Universe was 9.2 billion years old !!

God has no time in His Realm. Causation came about with the Creation of our universe. My "TIME THEORY" is based on study not just guess work. Since the Universe was created, and Earth was Formed 9.2 billion years latter, then the first day had to be 9.2 billion years Old.................................BECAUSE

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and Darkness was on he face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

{{ Notice, the Earth was void and without form, that is because God only Spoke it into Creation, it actuality it took 9.2 Billion years to form. Notice it says there was darkness on the face of the deep ? Well the WMAP/NASA Project, which has mapped out the Universe with Microwaves, says there was darkness on the face of the deep. (Big Bang, followed by Inflation, followed by Cosmic Microwave background where after 380,000 years loose electrons cool enough to combine with protons. The Universe becomes Transparent to Light. The Microwave background begins to shine. Then the dark ages/clouds of dark hydrogen gas cool and coalesce. }}

{{ The first stars appear..........Gas Clouds collapse, the fusion of Stars begin, the first of which appears at about 400 million years after the Big Bang. SO............When the Bible says Darkness was on the face of the deep, God knew exactly what was happening in the very beginning !! }}

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. {{ The First day was Darkness and Light. People have often confused this, but God is saying there was Darkness, then Light (Stars formed at 400 million years).......That was the first day. It lasted 9.2 Billion years, give or take a few million years....LOL. }}

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. {{ How does a firmament (Heaven/Air) divide the waters from the waters ? Well, God placed waters on the Earth, and the Sky has water in the Air, that's why it Rains !! This was the Second Day, so it couldn't have Started any sooner than 4.5 Billion years ago. And the Grasses and Herbs began to appear at about 900 Million years B.C. according to my study of Science books, so the Second Day lasted from 4.5 Billion years until about 900 Million years B.C. And as God stated, that was the 2ND DAY. }}

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. 11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

{{ So, since the Grasses and herb yielding fruits came about around 900 Million Years B.C. to 800 Million years B.C. that becomes the 3RD DAY. }}

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

{Seems God set the Seasons, and that was the fourth day. Probably happened at about the same time as the 3rd day, fairly close imho. And the stars started lighting the Earth over time when their light reached the Earth.}

20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. 21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

{{ Through a study of Science books and such it is determined that the Sea Creatures have been around much longer than the Land Creatures, and that jibes with Gods account here..............About 500 Million years ago the Sea Creatures and fowl came along, and that was the 5TH DAY. It lasted until about 250 million years B.C. }}

24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. 29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

{{{ Through studying Science again the land animals/creatures started showing up around 250 million years ago. So this was the 6TH day........From 250 million years B.C. until 6000 years B.C. when God created man and rested from His creation. }}}

We are now in Gods day of rest or the 7TH DAY............

This actually all fits together in Gods timeline. It can not be perfect by the numbers of course, but it is an approximation that makes more sense than an earth that is only 6000 years old. Or in believing a universe that magically appeared from nothing.

Many seem think that man is much older than 6000 years old, I ask, why is it nor recorded in history ? Secondly, Man became man when God imparted him with a Soul, and put His Spirit in us. Any Animal created before this impartation that made us into human beings (or made us in the image of God) , was not a Human Being as we are known today. They would just be another animal, nothing more, nothing less.


Again, this is only my theory from studying both science and the bible. God Bless
Do you believe in Old Earth Creationism, or Theistic Evolution? After all, the only difference between micro-Evolution and macro-Evolution is time.
 
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