Predestination, is it coercive determinism ?

[Rick Otto]

I think God renamed Paul. So what if he is a roman citizen. What does that have to do with why he would be renamed?

I could only guess.

 

[Jan001]

Are those same people the ones He finishes the work He started in, and they make it to heaven?
Did He foreknow because He created, or did He have to peek into the future to find out?

Yes.

God wants to work in all people until their death so that they can then inherit eternal life. Unfortunately, most people choose to not cooperate with Him. They choose to disobey Him rather than to obey Him.

God knows all about all things. God does not have to think about anything. He just knows everything about everything. God knew beforehand that when He did create Adam that Adam would sin and therefore He also planned for His Son to atone for Adam's sin.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Yes.

God wants to work in all people until their death so that they can then inherit eternal life. Unfortunately, most people choose to not cooperate with Him. They choose to disobey Him rather than to obey Him.

God knows all about all things. God does not have to think about anything. He just knows everything about everything. God knew beforehand that when He did create Adam that Adam would sin and therefore He also planned for His Son to atone for Adam's sin.

Salvation is based on faith, not works.

Jesus Christ saves those who come to Him in faith, by His grace to give us a gift that we in no way deserve. His sacrifice of living a holy, sinless life and dying on the cross as a sacrifice for all the sins of man, undoing what Adam did and the sin that each of us has. Blood has always been the sacrifice for sin, Old Testament and New Testament.

 

[Jan001]

So a couple lines after He names him rock, He says "Get thee behind me Satan" to the guy He wants as leader? Jesus replaced Himself?

Jesus appointed and renamed Simon "Rock"/"Cephas"/"Peter" in order for him to represent Him (THE ROCK) on earth because Jesus was going to return to heaven to be with His Father until the time of His second appearing on earth at the end of time. Peter denied three times that he knew Jesus, none of the other apostles denied Him; they simply ran away except for Judas who betrayed Jesus and then hanged himself. Peter repented of his three denials of Jesus and he was forgiven. He was made leader of the apostles.

Luke 7:41-43
A certain creditor had two debtors; one owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. 42 When they could not pay, he forgave them both. Now which of them will love him more?” 43 Simon answered, “The one, I suppose, to whom he forgave more.” And he said to him, “You have judged rightly.” rsv

John 21:15-17
When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” 16 A second time he said to him, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.” 17 He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?” And he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my sheep. rsv
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Moses represented God on earth, and later the Judges did, and by the time of Jesus' life on earth, it was the Scribes and Pharisees who were authorized by God to be His authority on earth.

Matthew 23:1-3
Then said Jesus to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; 3 so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice. rsv
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The word Satan was also used as a term to describe a stumbling block or hindrance. Jesus was not claiming that Peter was equal to Satan, God's greatest enemy. Peter was simply thinking with his own human understanding. He did not understand that God's plan of salvation required Jesus to die on the cross and so Peter contradicted what Jesus said what happen. He made a human error about something he did not understand about Jesus' reason for His being present on earth.

Matthew 16:23
But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me; for you are not on the side of God, but of men.” rsv
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God had to choose His leaders from ordinary human beings. None of the disciples were loyal to Jesus at all times.

Matthew 26:56
But all this has taken place, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled.” Then all the disciples forsook him and fled. rsv​

If you look two chapters later, we see Him giving those same keys to everyone present.

18] Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
[19] Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

Binding and loosing are not the same as being given the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Jesus gave these keys to only Peter the Rock.

Please note that Jesus did not give the other apostles the keys. He makes no mention at all of giving the "keys of the kingdom of heaven" to the other apostles.

Only the chief steward is given the keys to the kingdom's storehouses by the king. However the chief steward does delegate some of his duties to the stewards who are under him in command. Shebna was not a good chief steward. Neither were the scribes and Pharisees good stewards. God deals with his unfaithful stewards in His own way. God destroyed Jerusalem, its temple, and its inhabitants in 70 A.D. because the leaders of the Jews rejected their Savior, God's own Son, Jesus Christ.

Isaiah 22:15-24
Thus says the Lord God of hosts, “Come, go to this steward, to Shebna, who is over the household, and say to him: 16 What have you to do here and whom have you here, that you have hewn here a tomb for yourself, you who hew a tomb on the height, and carve a habitation for yourself in the rock? 17 Behold, the Lord will hurl you away violently, O you strong man. He will seize firm hold on you, 18 and whirl you round and round, and throw you like a ball into a wide land; there you shall die, and there shall be your splendid chariots, you shame of your master’s house. 19 I will thrust you from your office, and you will be cast down from your station. 20 In that day I will call my servant Eli′akim the son of Hilki′ah, 21 and I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your girdle on him, and will commit your authority to his hand; and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. 22 And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open. 23 And I will fasten him like a peg in a sure place, and he will become a throne of honor to his father’s house. 24 And they will hang on him the whole weight of his father’s house, the offspring and issue, every small vessel, from the cups to all the flagons." rsv
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There can be only one chief steward in office at a time, but there can be many stewards.

1 Corinthians 4:1-2
This is how one should regard us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. 2 Moreover it is required of stewards that they be found trustworthy. rsv​

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[Jan001]

I think God renamed Paul. So what if he is a roman citizen. What does that have to do with why he would be renamed?

Paul is a Roman name, not a Hebrew name. Paul was a Roman citizen. The Bible does not state that Jesus renamed Paul.

The Bible does state that God or His Son Jesus renamed Abram, Jacob, and Simon.

Paul was appointed by God as apostle to the Gentiles. 1 Timothy 2:7
Saul is a Hebrew name. None of the Gentiles were Hebrews. Perhaps Paul wanted to be called by his Gentile Roman name Paul instead of by his Hebrew name Saul in order to fit in better with the Gentiles that he wanted to convert to Christianity.

Acts 13:8-10
But El′ymas the magician (for that is the meaning of his name) withstood them, seeking to turn away the proconsul from the faith. 9 But Saul, who is also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked intently at him 10 and said, “You son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, full of all deceit and villainy, will you not stop making crooked the straight paths of the Lord? rsv​

 

[Jan001]

Salvation is based on faith, not works.

Jesus Christ saves those who come to Him in faith, by His grace to give us a gift that we in no way deserve. His sacrifice of living a holy, sinless life and dying on the cross as a sacrifice for all the sins of man, undoing what Adam did and the sin that each of us has. Blood has always been the sacrifice for sin, Old Testament and New Testament.

Both faith and good works are necessary to be approved worthy to inherit eternal life.

Revelation 3:1-3
And to the angel of the church in Sardis write: ‘The words of him who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars.
“‘I know your works; you have the name of being alive, and you are dead. 2 Awake, and strengthen what remains and is on the point of death, for I have not found your works perfect in the sight of my God. 3 Remember then what you received and heard; keep that, and repent. If you will not awake, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come upon you. rsv

Revelation 2:10
Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. rsv

James 2:14-17
What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. rsv

James 2:18
But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.

James 2:20
Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren?


James 2:26
For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.
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We are judged by our works alone at our judgment. Matthew 25:31-46

James 1:22
But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. rsv​

 

[Rick Otto]

QUOTE="Jan001, post: 69702190, member: 340838"]Jesus appointed and renamed Simon "Rock"/"Cephas"/"Peter" in order for him to represent Him (THE ROCK) on earth because ...

No He didn't. Peter got the nickname for his heartfelt profession of faith.
He got called Satan for his faithless thinking.

Binding and loosing are not the same as being given the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Jesus gave these keys to only Peter the Rock.

Of course it is the same. Keys bind or loose bonds. The power they represent is iterated right as they are verbally given. The same power is given to all disciples present in chapter 18. Sorry the truth doesn't agree with you.

Please note that Jesus did not give the other apostles the keys. He makes no mention at all of giving the "keys of the kingdom of heaven" to the other apostles.

He gave them the exact same power, He simply didn't invoke the symbol.

There can be only one chief steward in office at a time, but there can be many stewards.

And here you are wanting to replace the Chief with a servant steward.

 

[Rick Otto]

Both faith and good works are necessary to be approved worthy to inherit eternal life.

Jesus was the only worthy one.
The rest of us are saved from judgement only by the mercy of God's grace.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Yes.

God wants to work in all people until their death so that they can then inherit eternal life. Unfortunately, most people choose to not cooperate with Him. They choose to disobey Him rather than to obey Him.

God knows all about all things. God does not have to think about anything. He just knows everything about everything. God knew beforehand that when He did create Adam that Adam would sin and therefore He also planned for His Son to atone for Adam's sin.

Hebrews 12:1-3 the author and finisher of our faith is Jesus, how can that be?

 

[Rick Otto]

Hebrews 12:1-3 the author and finisher of our faith is Jesus, how can that be?

He can't do squat unless we cooperate.
That's the way I understood it.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

He can't do squat unless we cooperate.
That's the way I understood it.

Since faith is a gift (predestined as such?) I suppose it does depend on what one does with the gift. Christ has set a race before us from which we're not to weary because of His great example of endurance over those who oppose Him. My comment to Jan001 had to do with her stance that God predestined Christ to a role

God knew beforehand that when He did create Adam that Adam would sin and therefore He also planned for His Son to atone for Adam's sin.

My question was how could Christ be predestined to that role when He was the author of that role?

 

[Rick Otto]

Since faith is a gift (predestined as such?) I suppose it does depend on what one does with the gift. Christ has set a race before us from which we're not to weary because of His great example of endurance over those who oppose Him. My comment to Jan001 had to do with her stance that God predestined Christ to a role My question was how could Christ be predestined to that role when He was the author of that role?

Self determination.
But that confuses Father & Son distinctions.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Self determination.
But that confuses Father & Son distinctions.

From the scripture then what is the answer?

ETA
2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have been allotted faith equally precious as ours in the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

 

[Rick Otto]

From the scripture then what is the answer?

I gather that the Father did the planning, and the Son executed the plan.


“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light” (Genesis 1:1–3).

These incomparable words open God’s written revelation to man, telling us how our Time/Space/Matter universe came to exist. No other religious writings, ancient or modern, do this. All others begin with the assumption of an eternal, self-existing universe. The truth is, however, that the eternal, self-existing, transcendent, omnipotent Triune God simply called the universe into being by His word. “By the word of the LORD were the heavens made. . . . For He spake, and it was done” (Psalm 33:6,9).

The Hebrew for “God” is the uni-plural Elohim, a plural noun (as noted by the “im” ending), yet normally represented by a singular pronoun “He.” This is the first foreshadowing of the marvelous doctrine of the Trinity—only one Creator God, yet functioning as three divine Persons. It is significant that His created universe is actually a tri-universe, with each of its distinct components (“beginning” = time; “heaven” = space; “earth” = matter) comprising and pervading the whole universe. Just as the Father is the source and background of all being, so space is the background of all that happens in the physical universe. Just as the Son manifests and speaks for the Father, so matter manifests and functions in space. Just as the Spirit interprets and energizes the Son and the Father in human experience, so space and matter are interpreted and experienced in phenomena operating in time.

The Father planned the work of creation, the Son did the work (“all things were made by Him”—John 1:3), and the Spirit energized it (“the Spirit of God moved”). The Triune God created and now sustains our tri-universe! HMM"

http://www.icr.org/article/trinity-creation/

Also, this came to my mind:
Acts 2:[23] Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Self determination only falls into the reward system of the next age, also triune in form.

 

[Rick Otto]

Self determination only falls into the reward system of the next age, also triune in form.

Explain, please.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Explain, please.

We're given faith, endurance is rewarded to those who believe He is a God that rewards.

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.​

That may be in the present where those of a pure heart are rewarded with seeing God etc. or at the coming age

Luke 14:14 and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.​

Those who have eternal life have the only reward offered by God

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.​

Hence three ages, now/ the age of the resurrection of the righteous/ and the age when all will be handed over to the Father.

1 Corinthians 15:24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.​

 

[Jan001]

No He didn't. Peter got the nickname for his heartfelt profession of faith.
He got called Satan for his faithless thinking.

Of course it is the same. Keys bind or loose bonds. The power they represent is iterated right as they are verbally given. The same power is given to all disciples present in chapter 18. Sorry the truth doesn't agree with you.


He gave them the exact same power, He simply didn't invoke the symbol.


And here you are wanting to replace the Chief with a servant steward.

We disagree.

 

[Jan001]

Jesus was the only worthy one.
The rest of us are saved from judgement only by the mercy of God's grace.

God's grace and our own actions determine whether we will be approved worthy to inherit/receive/enter eternal life.

Ephesians 4:1
I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, rsv

2 Thessalonians 1:5
[ The Judgment at Christ’s Coming ] This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be made worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering— rsv​

Revelation 3:4
Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white, for they are worthy. rsv



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[Jan001]

Hebrews 12:1-3 the author and finisher of our faith is Jesus, how can that be?

We must imitate/follow Jesus' example of obedience to His Father until we die in order for us to be approved worthy of eternal life.

Philippians 2:8
And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross. rsv​

1 Corinthians 9:24-27
Do you not know that in a race all the runners compete, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. 25 Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Well, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air; 27 but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified. rsv

Philippians 2:12
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; rsv

Revelation 2:10
Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. rsv

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