The Law Stands, it condemns us all.

[Razare]

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. - Romans 3:19

The law which condemns Jews: Romans 2:12 - ... And the Jews, who do have God’s law, will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it.

The law which condemns Gentiles: Romans 2:14 - Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. 15 They demonstrate that God’s law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right.

We then covered Jew and Gentile, but there is a third group in scripture, the church!

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, - Romans 8:1

The promise of no condemnation is only given to those who are in Christ, which is the church of Christ. Those who are in the world, the Jews and the Gentiles, are condemned by either the law of Moses or the law of their conscience.

This also outlines the 3 groups God deals with and recognizes in scripture as three distinct peoples.

Is the law then done away with for a Christian? No. It condemns us Christians too! Except, it condemns our old life which is past and gone away with forever.

For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. - Romans 7:2

Death then is the condemnation we receive through the atonement of Christ, which is the crucifixion of our old nature spiritually. This is the goodness of God's law, for without capital punishment, we would be forever bound by our sins.

In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. - Romans 6:11

The death to sin, occurs by the law, not against the law, and not by annulling the law, but by the capital punishment it prescribes against sin, giving God the authority to punish our sin nature under capital punishment at the cross, through Jesus Christ. And the degree to which that atonement is final, is the degree to which sin is dead. That atonement was final in a way that exceeded the law, for Christ having died by the law was raised by faith. Therefore, faith was greater than the retribution that the law prescribed. And so having suffered the full wrath of the law, we have no obligation to it, by faith... the cessation of that obligation though is not in rejection to the law, but in acceptance of its punishment.

 

[Cribstyl]

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. - Romans 3:19

The law which condemns Jews: Romans 2:12 - ... And the Jews, who do have God’s law, will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it.

The law which condemns Gentiles: Romans 2:14 - Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. 15 They demonstrate that God’s law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right.

We then covered Jew and Gentile, but there is a third group in scripture, the church!

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, - Romans 8:1

The promise of no condemnation is only given to those who are in Christ, which is the church of Christ. Those who are in the world, the Jews and the Gentiles, are condemned by either the law of Moses or the law of their conscience.

This also outlines the 3 groups God deals with and recognizes in scripture as three distinct peoples.

Is the law then done away with for a Christian? No. It condemns us Christians too! Except, it condemns our old life which is past and gone away with forever.

For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. - Romans 7:2

Death then is the condemnation we receive through the atonement of Christ, which is the crucifixion of our old nature spiritually. This is the goodness of God's law, for without capital punishment, we would be forever bound by our sins.

In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. - Romans 6:11

The death to sin, occurs by the law, not against the law, and not by annulling the law, but by the capital punishment it prescribes against sin, giving God the authority to punish our sin nature under capital punishment at the cross, through Jesus Christ. And the degree to which that atonement is final, is the degree to which sin is dead. That atonement was final in a way that exceeded the law, for Christ having died by the law was raised by faith. Therefore, faith was greater than the retribution that the law prescribed. And so having suffered the full wrath of the law, we have no obligation to it, by faith... the cessation of that obligation though is not in rejection to the law, but in acceptance of its punishment.

This false teaching uses isolated texts from here, there and everywhere that appears to support the OP's argument. The context of Rom 3:19 makes it clear
Rom3:21 (NLT)
But now God has shown us a way to be made right with him without keeping the requirements of the law, as was promised in the writings of Moses and the prophets long ago.
Rom3:28 (KJV)
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

 

[Razare]

This false teaching uses isolated texts from here, there and everywhere that appears to support the OP's argument. The context of Rom 3:19 makes it clear
Rom3:21 (NLT)
But now God has shown us a way to be made right with him without keeping the requirements of the law, as was promised in the writings of Moses and the prophets long ago.
Rom3:28 (KJV)
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Which is exactly what I'm saying. We are not justified by keeping the requirements of the law, but justified in that we accept we violated the law. That violation of the law then is our sin. (All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.) So certainly we are not justified by the keeping the requirement of the law.

You entirely missed what I said. I just phrased it provocatively so maybe that's what threw you off?

This is a grace teaching that I gave.

Condemnation for our sin upon the cross, through the wrath of God upon Christ, is a grace teaching. I'm just sharing, it is the law which brought that condemnation of our sin.

 

[Cribstyl]

Which is exactly what I'm saying. We are not justified by keeping the requirements of the law, but justified in that we accept we violated the law. That violation of the law then is our sin. (All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.) So certainly we are not justified by the keeping the requirement of the law.

You entirely missed what I said. I just phrased it provocatively so maybe that's what threw you off?

This is a grace teaching that I gave.

Respectfully friend, your OP's title is: "The law stands, it condemns us all". That first point contradicts Paul saying: Rom3:19What the law says is to those under the law...
Now, this last part of the verse:
"and all the world may become guilty before God." Paul is talking about the whole world being guilty of sin before God, and not about being guilty of breaking laws that the whole were never under in the first place.

 

[Razare]

Respectfully friend, your OP's title is: "The law stands, it condemns us all". That first point contradicts Paul saying: What the law says is to those under the law.

Well if you just want to focus on my title and ignore my post, it's kind of disingenuous.

I guess if you want to respond to titles only, go ahead.

The law has condemned every Christian, though, at the cross and that is what I mean by it condemns us all. Certainly, though, I was going for provocation and attention grabbing.

Though, I was also contradicting the idea that the law no longer exists, or that the law no longer applies. If the law no longer applies then a Christian can't be atoned for through the cross. For it's the law's judgement which is going to judge their sin nature at the cross. So I was countering false doctrine which says the law is done away with.

While a lot of people are well-meaning in that they believe the law is done away with, rather it's still in operation today. Condemning Gentiles, condemning Jews, and condemning all Christians at the cross so they can live a new life... including our present and future sins. So if we renew our minds to that judgement of our sin upon the cross, it frees us from sin, the more that we're aware of it spiritually.

 

[Cribstyl]

Well if you just want to focus on my title and ignore my post, it's kind of disingenuous.

I guess if you want to respond to titles only, go ahead.

Respectfully friend, all your words are examined for truth and error. That's what I do.

The law has condemned every Christian, though, at the cross and that is what I mean by it condemns us all. Certainly, though, I was going for provocation and attention grabbing.

That statement above and your thread title contradicts these scriptures:
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Jhn 5:24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
You're saying that every Christian is condemned by the law, but scripture teach that Christians do not come under condemnation by the law.

Though, I was also contradicting the idea that the law no longer exists, or that the law no longer applies. If the law no longer applies then a Christian can't be atoned for through the cross. For it's the law's judgement which is going to judge their sin nature at the cross. So I was countering false doctrine which says the law is done away with.

While a lot of people are well-meaning in that they believe the law is done away with, rather it's still in operation today. Condemning Gentiles, condemning Jews, and condemning all Christians at the cross so they can live a new life... including our present and future sins. So if we renew our minds to that judgement of our sin upon the cross, it frees us from sin, the more that we're aware of it spiritually.

If you prayerfully read Galatians 3 you should learn about the 2 covenants. 1 is the law and the other is the promise to Abraham (this is the gospel). These scriptures teaches that the law is not of faith. These scriptures teach the Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law. These scriptures answer the question; What is the reason for giving the law? The answer also explains when the law was given and it would serve until the seed came. These scriptures teach that the law was a schoolmaster but now we're not under that schoolmaster.

If you let scriptures be true you'll be OK, but your statements appear as SDA doctrine.

 

[Soyeong]

Respectfully friend, your OP's title is: "The law stands, it condemns us all". That first point contradicts Paul saying: Rom3:19What the law says is to those under the law...
Now, this last part of the verse:
"and all the world may become guilty before God." Paul is talking about the whole world being guilty of sin before God, and not about being guilty of breaking laws that the whole were never under in the first place.

It's God's law that gives us knowledge of sin and without the law we wouldn't even know what sin is, so you can't have people being guilty of sin without also being guilty of breaking the law, and vice versa. If you're not under God's law, then you have no need for a savior.

 

[Soyeong]

For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. - Romans 7:2

Death then is the condemnation we receive through the atonement of Christ, which is the crucifixion of our old nature spiritually. This is the goodness of God's law, for without capital punishment, we would be forever bound by our sins.

In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. - Romans 6:11

The death to sin, occurs by the law, not against the law, and not by annulling the law, but by the capital punishment it prescribes against sin, giving God the authority to punish our sin nature under capital punishment at the cross, through Jesus Christ. And the degree to which that atonement is final, is the degree to which sin is dead. That atonement was final in a way that exceeded the law, for Christ having died by the law was raised by faith. Therefore, faith was greater than the retribution that the law prescribed. And so having suffered the full wrath of the law, we have no obligation to it, by faith... the cessation of that obligation though is not in rejection to the law, but in acceptance of its punishment.

In Romans 7:1-4, Paul said he was speaking to those who knew the law, so he was using an example from the law to illustrate his point rather than using a metaphor. We can't be represented by the woman because we died to the law and it is her husband that died, and we can be represented by the man because it is the wife who is free to get married to another. When the woman's husband died, she was not set free to break the Sabbath, commit adultery, commit murder, etc., but rather she was only set free from what would condemn her if she were to live with another man while her husband was still alive. If after her husband died she were get married to another man, then she would still be subject to the same law. In the same way, we died to what would penalize us for breaking the law, however, we didn't stay dead, but rose with Messiah in newness of life. If we have no obligation to obey the law, then we have no obligation to do what is holy, righteous, and good, or to follow Messiah example of obedience to the law, but the Bible says the exact opposite (1 Peter 1:14-16, 1 John 3:10, Ephesians 2:10, 1 John 2:4-6, 1 Peter 2:21-22). Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21), and sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4), so our salvation is from transgressing to law for the purpose of becoming obedient slaves to it (Romans 6:16).

 

[Cribstyl]

It's God's law that gives us knowledge of sin and without the law we wouldn't even know what sin is, so you can't have people being guilty of sin without also being guilty of breaking the law, and vice versa. If you're not under God's law, then you have no need for a savior.

You're doubling down on error.
You're being deceptive with partial quotes from a context where Paul is saying that the law is no longer the way of righteousness.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. Paul is saying; In claiming that you keep the law, no one will win their case before God, because the law is a list of wrongdoings that results in death. (It does not promise life). Paul is not saying that we would not know what sin is. Paul said that sin was in the world before the law.

 

[bugkiller]

It's God's law that gives us knowledge of sin and without the law we wouldn't even know what sin is, so you can't have people being guilty of sin without also being guilty of breaking the law, and vice versa. If you're not under God's law, then you have no need for a savior.

On the contrary, that's exactly why the Christian isn't under the law. We have the Savior.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

In Romans 7:1-4, Paul said he was speaking to those who knew the law, so he was using an example from the law to illustrate his point rather than using a metaphor. We can't be represented by the woman because we died to the law and it is her husband that died, and we can be represented by the man because it is the wife who is free to get married to another. When the woman's husband died, she was not set free to break the Sabbath, commit adultery, commit murder, etc., but rather she was only set free from what would condemn her if she were to live with another man while her husband was still alive. If after her husband died she were get married to another man, then she would still be subject to the same law. In the same way, we died to what would penalize us for breaking the law, however, we didn't stay dead, but rose with Messiah in newness of life. If we have no obligation to obey the law, then we have no obligation to do what is holy, righteous, and good, or to follow Messiah example of obedience to the law, but the Bible says the exact opposite (1 Peter 1:14-16, 1 John 3:10, Ephesians 2:10, 1 John 2:4-6, 1 Peter 2:21-22). Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21), and sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4), so our salvation is from transgressing to law for the purpose of becoming obedient slaves to it (Romans 6:16).

And why can't Paul use as many illustrations as he wishes?

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. - Romans 3:19

Indeed it would be pretty hard for the Law of God to do that - if it no longer exists.

 

[BobRyan]

It's God's law that gives us knowledge of sin and without the law we wouldn't even know what sin is, so you can't have people being guilty of sin without also being guilty of breaking the law, and vice versa. If you're not under God's law, then you have no need for a savior.

That is true according to Paul in Romans 3 and 7 and ... John in 1 John 3:4. But what if someone does not like listening to those Bible writers when they affirm the Law of God still existing today?

 

[bugkiller]

That is true according to Paul in Romans 3 and 7 and ... John in 1 John 3:4. But what if someone does not like listening to those Bible writers when they affirm the Law of God still existing today?

My guess is they reject the truth.

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

It's God's law that gives us knowledge of sin and without the law we wouldn't even know what sin is, so you can't have people being guilty of sin without also being guilty of breaking the law, and vice versa. If you're not under God's law, then you have no need for a savior.

That is true according to Paul in Romans 3 and 7 and ... John in 1 John 3:4. But what if someone does not like listening to those Bible writers when they affirm the Law of God still existing today?

My guess is they reject the truth.
bugkiller

I hope you don't mind being quoted - just then.

 

[bugkiller]

I hope you don't mind being quoted - just then.

No I don't mind being quoted at all. The problem is you take my statement to mean something it doesn't.

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

Not in real life - in real life I simply quote the posts and place them in my post lest they vanish.

 

[bugkiller]

Not in real life - in real life I simply quote the posts and place them in my post lest they vanish.

Then why is it you only partially quote them? Is preservation really your goal or is it something else?

bugkiller

 

[Soyeong]

You're being deceptive with partial quotes from a context where Paul is saying that the law is no longer the way of righteousness.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

The one and only way to become righteous is by grace through faith and God's law is the way for the righteous to live righteously by grace through faith. When God has given instructions for how to live righteously and you have faith that He knows what He is talking about, then living by faith is living in accordance to those instructions, for the righteous shall live by faith (Habakkuk 2:4). Paul made it clear that our faith does not abolish the law, but rather it upholds the law because we are to obey it by grace through faith. We are declared righteous apart from the law because it is by faith that we are declared righteous, but it is also by faith that we do what is righteous in accordance with God's law.

Romans 1:5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations,

Titus 2:11-14 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

What the grace of God brings in these verses is what our salvation looks like, so our salvation from sin is not just being redeemed from the penalty of sin, but also involves being trained in righteousness and being trained to cease from sin and lawlessness (2 Timothy 3:16-17). In John 1:16-17, it says that grace was added upon grace, so the grace of Messiah was added to the grace of the law. In Romans 1:5, it says that we have received grace to bring about the obedience of faith. Strong's defines "grace" as "the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life" and God's law is His instructions for how to do His will, so when His will is reflected in our lives, that takes the form of obedience to His law in training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age. God is purifying for himself a people for His own possession who are zealous for good works, and OT Scriptures are what equip us to do every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17). We are not saved by doing good works, but for the purpose of doing them (Ephesians 2:10).

Paul is saying; In claiming that you keep the law, no one will win their case before God, because the law is a list of wrongdoings that results in death. (It does not promise life).

Deuteronomy 30:11-20 “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it. 15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil. 16 If you obey the commandments of the Lord your God[a] that I command you today, by loving the Lord your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it. 17 But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them, 18 I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess. 19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live, 20 loving the Lord your God, obeying his voice and holding fast to him, for he is your life and length of days, that you may dwell in the land that the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.”

Proverbs 13:14 The teaching of the wise is a fountain of life, that one may turn away from the snares of death.

Deuteronomy 10:12-13 And now, Israel, what does the Lord your God require of you, but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in all his ways, to love him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, 13 and to keep the commandments and statutes of the Lord, which I am commanding you today for your good?

Ezekiel 36:26-27 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

God's law brings both life and death, life if you practice obedience to it, and death if you practice disobedience, so choose life. God's purpose in giving the law was not to bring about the death of His people, but so that they would choose life, not to be a heavy legalistic burden, but for our own good, so that we would be a people that He could bless. The problem was not that obeying the law was hard, but that our hearts were hard, so God will give us a heart of flesh, write His law on our hearts so that we will obey it, and put His Spirit within us to cause us to obey His commands. It seems like some people think that God can do anything except cause His people to obey His law, but Christ died to set us free from sin in disobedience to the law so that through him we might be free to obey it and thereby meet its righteous requirement (Romans 8:4). Throughout the Bible God wanted His people to repent from their sin in disobedience to His law and turn to obedience, which is a central part of the gospel message.

Paul is not saying that we would not know what sin is. Paul said that sin was in the world before the law.

Romans 7:7a What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin.

Paul directly said that we would not know what sin was if it were not for the law, so because it gives us knowledge of sin and we are told not to sin, then it is pretty straightforward that we should follow what the law instructs. God has always been holy, righteous, and good, so the way to have such a conduct in line with His character has existed from the beginning before God instructed how to do that to Moses, so it is true that sin was in the world before the law, but still is still disobedience to the law.

You're doubling down on error.

According to 2 Peter 3:15-17, Paul is difficult to understand, but those who are ignorant and unstable twist his words to their own destruction and fall into the error of lawlessness, so if you think Paul was against obeying God's law, then you have fallen into error. In any case, we must obey God rather than man, so if you think Paul was against obeying God, then you should obey God instead of Paul, however, Paul said our faith upholds God's law, so he was in favor of obeying God. According to Deuteronomy 13:4-6, the way to know that someone is not speaking for God is if they teach against obeying His commands, so again, Paul would be a false prophet and you should disregard what he said. However, he added verse Romans 3:31 precisely so that people would not fall into error by misinterpreting him as you have.

 

[ToBeLoved]

It's God's law that gives us knowledge of sin and without the law we wouldn't even know what sin is, so you can't have people being guilty of sin without also being guilty of breaking the law, and vice versa. If you're not under God's law, then you have no need for a savior.

It's not about being under the law, it is about us all being guilty of sin under the law.

The problem is sin.

We need a Savior from our sins.

People confuse the issue.