LDS Mormonism is an enemy of the Cross and therefore not Christian

[withwonderingawe]

Just to remind everyone what the OP states.-----There was no question asked.

"One of the central tenets in Christianity is Christ's atonement on the Cross. In this, Christ redeemed us even though none of us deserve it, plus He claimed victory over sin and death. The Cross is the symbol of the power that lies behind Christianity."
I Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.


https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/19.15-19?lang=eng#14

Gethsemane
There he prayed and suffered in Gethsemane for the sins of mankind

13 Wherefore, I command you to repent, and keep the commandments which you have received by the hand of my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., in my name;

14 And it is by my almighty power that you have received them;
18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.

You can also study an inspiring account of the proceedings in chapter 33 of Jesus the Christ, a book by James E. Talmage.
Interesting to note that the official LSD site sends you to read Talmage---yet they can say he is not an official publication.

THIS IS THE REASON THEY AVOID THE CROSS:

"It was not physical pain, nor mental anguish alone, that caused Him to suffer such torture as to produce an extrusion of blood from every pore; but a spiritual agony of soul such as only God was capable of experiencing. No other man, however great his powers of physical or mental endurance, could have suffered so; for his human organism would have succumbed, and syncope would have produced unconsciousness and welcome oblivion. In that hour of anguish Christ met and overcame all the horrors that Satan, “the prince of this world”g could inflict. The frightful struggle incident to the temptations immediately following the Lord’s baptismh was surpassed and overshadowed by this supreme contest with the powers of evil.

The further tragedy of the night, and the cruel inflictions that awaited Him on the morrow, to culminate in the frightful tortures of the cross, could not exceed the bitter anguish through which He had successfully passed."
https://www.lds.org/manual/jesus-the-christ/chapter-33?lang=eng

They dot not preach the cross----they preach Gethsemane.

You must have missed the posting where I quoted D&C 19.

 

[tickingclocker]

... I went to the Tanner site because CARM quote from it and just had to laugh, the way they work their deception is amazing....

Tell me, is every single Mormon website on the internet perfectly accurate? Is every Christian website perfectly accurate that you go to for information? Like the one which a Mormon attempted to declare that "Baptist ministers believe in the BoM", when it was only ONE Baptist minister who said he believed it? That Mormon failed to mention this minister was subsequently excommunicated from the Baptists afterwards. Did they believe all Baptist ministers believed the BoM, or, did they want US to believe all Baptist ministers believed the BoM? You figure it out. ALL the "facts" didn't matter. How many times have we told Mormons that's not how it is, that's not what we believe, etc, etc., yet Mormons keep insisting, "Yes it is!"

Mormonism and Christianity are forever diametrically opposed. Face the fact. They will never meet on "middle ground" because there IS no middle ground. One will never accept the other, unless they both bend their own beliefs to the breaking point, and everything will be pointless then.

Stalemate. As usual. As always. Yet you keep coming back for more. Why is that? Do you honestly think you can convert anyone here? After perusing some of the past questions on here, it's been the exact same regulars on here for years, answering the the EXACT SAME QUESTIONS BOTH SIDES HAVE BEEN ARGUING OVER FOR YEARS. And still---nothing! Not one single person has changed sides or their initial opinion of the other.

I may not know everything there is about LDS mormonism, but I know enough about mormonism itself to identify the lies it started with and will certainly end with. Don't tell me I'm lying. Don't tell me I don't know. I lived it. I saw it for myself. I rejected it for what it IS--by myself, too. So now, I'm praying for a more effective forum outreach ministry to EX-Mormons instead (and I pray other Christians will join me in that prayer). They are always overlooked and they shouldn't be! They are much more open to the freedom that is offered by Jesus Christ, despite their suspicion, anger, fear and trauma. Where they can come on here as seekers and not be inundated by TBM judgment, pushiness, and head games, as has been my experience. Where they will not be ridiculed but accepted for who they are, their struggles will be validated and addressed, where they can be challenged to grow, through love, in spiritual knowledge of who God truly is in the Christianity they were never allowed to know. It's always been the LOST on my heart, those who KNOW they are like I once did. That makes it not about "Mormons" any longer--to me.

I believe Jesus Christ meant something important when He said wipe the dust off your feet if they just refuse to listen. I can't help but believe Him. He is so perfectly right. Why keep endlessly going after those who deliberately keep swimming away from the lifeboat, drawing you further from the shore, when there are so many floundering around, searching for one thing solid enough to save them? How many times will they have to shout they don't need it for you to finally take heed?

"Wherever they do not receive you, as you leave that town, shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them.” (Luke 9:5)

 

[withwonderingawe]

"Baptist ministers believe in the BoM",

Ya mean because someone added an 's' on the end of minister you think the whole article is a lie. Who ever posted it made a type-o. The minister calls himself "charismatic Baptist" is there some difference? I looked up his name on line and I can't find a place which says he was exed from the Baptist but then his actual credentials are in question too. Sure didn't have anything nice to say about Jerry Farrell.

As usual. As always. Yet you keep coming back for more. Why is that? Do you honestly think you can convert anyone here?

No, but I do feel someone needs to confront the many lies and distortions which are spread here. I don't mind you saying the Mormons believe A, B and C when that is the truth but when A, B and C become A + 1/4 and B+1/3 and C+1/8 then I mind and I think thing should be set strait.

Wouldn't you as a Christian want to tell the truth?

 

[BigDaddy4]

And by "Christianity" you mean the popular vote of sinful men? Don't care.
Christ and His Words? Now that I care.


Actually, I am quite informed on early Christian beliefs, councils, creeds, etc. I have spent much time researching it.

But to find Truth I look to God, not men.

This is so funny and ironic. How is lds scripture canonized? Ultimately by the vote of the congregation! Yet you "don't care" about the "popular vote of sinful man"...

You have a credibility and believability problem with your contradictory statements.

 

[BigDaddy4]

...except they are not our books.

As I noted in another thread, if you ever have reason to ask whether or not a work is official, check the copyright page.

Any work that's official will be put out through the Church itself, and so it will either read "Copyright Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" or "Copyright Intellectual Reserve."

If the work is published by anyone else, then that anyone else is a third party. This third party has no authority to state what is or isn't official, and so whatever they publish will run the gamut from "profitable to study" to "unorthodox".

However, some of these books, which you deem as "unofficial", are used in your teaching manuals and can be found on the "official" lds.org website. So, once again, you are being dishonest.

 

[BigDaddy4]

I wanted you to respond in your own words and directly to what I posted.

That's the standard we expect.

Simply spamming us with more links to other questionable sites isn't helping your case any.

Um no. You routinely post a link (usually to Jeff Lindsay's site) and say that's that! Once again, you are being dishonest about any "expected standard" when you fail to live up to it yourself. Someone might call that hypocritical...

 

[Super14LDS]

Um no. You routinely post a link (usually to Jeff Lindsay's site) and say that's that! Once again, you are being dishonest about any "expected standard" when you fail to live up to it yourself. Someone might call that hypocritical...

Me thinks Ye be confused ,, Jeff Lindsay is one of my heros as is FB, Iron, Awe, Alla, Doe, Doug Bachelor and many others such as the 14LDS.com site of which I'm a fan. Yes LDS authors have caught on to the 20% rule and write plenty long articles from which to carefully exerpt text. By all means, please do post such simuarly researched material.

.

 

[Goatee]

Antletems: DO you hear us when we tell you that vast majority of this list are NOT Mormon scripture? The website is intentionally deceiving you. Do you understand that?

(I want to make sure you hear and understand this before we mess with any specific examples)

Which bit would you say are not mormon scripture then?

 

[Goatee]

Hmmm, I guess someone changed their mind on "mormon bashing"... imagine that.

Why don't we just come together as one? EVERY denomination thinks they're the ones who are right (ESPECIALLY the Catholics). Looks like some people just want to "have a go".

Having read more info i can see how bad their doctrines / beliefs are!

 

[Goatee]

Antletems: I'm going to use this example to illustrate to you how the CARM website is knowingly and intentionally deceiving you about LDS beliefs.

1) Deception by false sources: NONE of these sources are LDS scripture. The website conveniently neglects to tell you that these are entirely non-canonical non-official sources. If they wanted to actual poke holes at LDS beliefs, they could use actual scripture.

2) Out of context: all three "sources" are quotes taken out of context to distort their meaning.

3) Deception by omitting the most critical and important things of LDS beliefs in Christ. Let's look at some actual central LDS beliefs on Christ:

A. Christ is the anointed (Greek) or Messiah (Hebrew)
B. Jesus, who is called Christ, is the firstborn of the Father in the spirit and the Only Begotten of the Father in the flesh.
C. He is Jehovah and was foreordained to His great calling in the Grand Councils before the world was.
D. He was born of Mary at Bethlehem,
E. He lived a sinless life
F. Christ wrought out a perfect atonement for all mankind by the shedding of His blood and His death on the cross.
G. He rose from the grave and brought to pass the bodily resurrection of every living thing and the salvation and exaltation of the faithful.
H. He is the greatest Being to be born on this earth.
I. He is the perfect example
J. All religious things should be done in His name.
K. He is Lord of lords, King of kings, the Creator, the Savior, the God of the whole earth, the Captain of our salvation, the Bright and Morning Star.
L. He is in all things, above all things, through all things, and round about all things.
M. He is Alpha and Omega, the first and the last;
N. His name is above every name and is the only name under heaven by which we can be saved.
O. He will come again in power and glory to dwell on the earth and will stand as Judge of all mankind at the last day.

Hmmm... that's a lot of really important beliefs that your website conveniently neglected to mention... why do you think they "forgot" to tell you these things?

List the ones you say are false then from my list

 

[Goatee]

Well, it does seem that the mormons will not answer questions direct and they keep saying the bom is scripture when it is not.

Several websites quote the same info about mormon doctrines and beliefs and they can't 'all' be wrong!

We even have ex-mormons saying what it is really like in the the mormon denomination!

I am moving out of this discussion now. Looking at all the info i have seen i would advise anyone seeking God to look at true Christianity. Sorry mormon friend but your doctrines and beliefs are not from this planet!

God bless you all.

 

[Ironhold]

Well, it does seem that the mormons will not answer questions

Read my post.

I answered you at length by quoting actual church teachings and providing context behind everything.

Several websites quote the same info about mormon doctrines and beliefs and they can't 'all' be wrong!

Laziness is such a massive problem among critics of the LDS faith that even other members of the counter-cult movement have called them out on it.

It's an all-too-common practice for critics of the church to simply regurgitate already-existing material instead of doing their own research. As a result, material that was debunked decades ago is still in circulation because people don't want to bother learning better.

 

[tickingclocker]

I think I am done with this thread----It is enough to see this from their own site and this is what they believe. They are entitled to believe it---just should not call it Christian.

I'm with you, kid.

 

[tickingclocker]

Ya mean because someone added an 's' on the end of minister you think the whole article is a lie. Who ever posted it made a type-o. The minister calls himself "charismatic Baptist" is there some difference? I looked up his name on line and I can't find a place which says he was exed from the Baptist but then his actual credentials are in question too. Sure didn't have anything nice to say about Jerry Farrell.




No, but I do feel someone needs to confront the many lies and distortions which are spread here. I don't mind you saying the Mormons believe A, B and C when that is the truth but when A, B and C become A + 1/4 and B+1/3 and C+1/8 then I mind and I think thing should be set strait.

Wouldn't you as a Christian want to tell the truth?

Some "typo" (Was it YOU?? Is that why you are defending it so strongly? On second thought don't bother). The enemy of my enemy is my friend? He started his own independent "Baptist church". As if why he doesn't admit he was excommed? He's probably out of business nowadays or close to it.

You want to continue to believe Smith's lies, you go right ahead. This sure is a free country, considering JS was never was able to become president over it. And thank God.

Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except by God’s appointment, and the authorities that exist have been instituted by God. So the person who resists such authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will incur judgment (for rulers cause no fear for good conduct but for bad). Do you desire not to fear authority? Do good and you will receive its commendation, (Rom 13:1-3)

 

[fatboys]

This is so funny and ironic. How is lds scripture canonized? Ultimately by the vote of the congregation! Yet you "don't care" about the "popular vote of sinful man"...

You have a credibility and believability problem with your contradictory statements.

We vote to make it binding on us. Not to declare whether or not it is scripture. Big difference

 

[drstevej]

We vote to make it binding on us. Not to declare whether or not it is scripture. Big difference

So you can vote to thumb your nose at Scripture?

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Games?

Yes, games. Either that or you and others have severe reading comprehension deficiencies, but I doubt that since you're all able to understand what you want to understand.

We've countered your arguments. Several non-Mormons have joined us in doing so. We've cited sources, presented the actual theology, and then turned the question around several times over in an effort to show the extant double standards it presents.

Which non-mormons have joined you in countering my arguments? Or is that more game-playing?

You definitely did turn the question around several times, that's for sure - you turned it around into something completely different from what it started as (which wasn't even a question, btw).

The OP was answered some pages ago; it's just a question of getting people to realize that.

It was answered but never with any answer that disproved the premise of the OP. In fact, the premise of the OP has been held up by many posts by the many Christians who responded.

We're not the ones who first made it about the physical display of crosses... which has been shown is not in and of itself a disqualifying factor. Thus, with the foundation of your arguments gone, they do not hold any weight.

You are the ones who turned it into the physical display of crosses being a qualifying or disqualifying factor for being a Christian. That is not what the OP is about. Re-read the OP and if you still think that's what it's about then you have a reading comprehension problem.

CTR = Choose The Right

It was WWJD before WWJD even existed.

Like WWJD, it is a symbol used by those who believe in what it stands for. The mormons use CTR as their biggest symbol along with the Angel Moroni. The mormon religion loves symbols and uses many, many symbols. Symbols do not make a person mormon or christian or anything - phonies can misuse symbols to fool people (including themselves) and genuine people can be genuine about their belief or faith without having to use symbols. While those cases can exist, they are the exceptions to the norm. The norm is that a religion (or a person) will display symbolism that represents its beliefs at some point on some level.

The OP is about the mormon religion, not simply individual people. The mormon religion abhors the cross. The mormon religion sees the cross as a symbol of death and that view is in direct opposition to the Bible which is why I put those verses in the OP that show the cross is a symbol of God's power and not simply death. The fact that the mormons hate the cross and shun it while instead embracing symbols like CTR, Moroni, Crowns, beehives, inverted pentagrams, hexagrams, suns, moons, stars, etc. ad nauseum is a clear indicator that they are against the Cross. But if that's not enough, we also have it officially from the lds,org site that the cross is NOT a symbol of the faith of the mormons.

Since the cross is officially NOT a symbol of the mormon faith then the mormons have a different faith from the Biblical Gospel which is what Christians believe. It's just that simple. Mormons believe in works plus some kind of weak "grace" from their "Jesus" who is Satan's brother and is a creation himself, like Satan. Christians believe in the actual Grace of God, through Christ ALONE, by faith ALONE, "not of works lest any man should boast".

What I find most odd is that so many mormons here are trying to defend against being called "enemies of the cross" while their own church makes it officially clear that they don't like the cross and refuse to acknowledge it as a symbol of the mormon faith or religion.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

We vote to make it binding on us. Not to declare whether or not it is scripture. Big difference

If you make it "binding", meaning you become "bound" to it, then it is law just as much as any scripture. It is de facto scripture if you make it so. And you trust sinful men to bind your entire religion to laws enacted by votes from those sinful men? What good are your prophets and apostles, then? Seems like they're mostly worthless.

 

[dzheremi]

It appears that they want their own trinity of three gods, their own bible and quasi-bible in the form of the LDS translation of the Bible (cross-referenced with their quasi-Bible, the Book of Mormon), their own substitute cross with this "CTR" thing, their own prophets outside of the ones we hold in common, their own revelations, and so forth, and still to be thought of as Christians, with everyone else merely 'misunderstanding' (or deliberately mischaracterizing) each of these points.

Well, when you hold so little in common with actual Christianity, does it really matter if others don't understand the finer points of Mormon theology? You don't get the 'big stuff' right, so what would be the point of going to this LDS source or that LDS source, as though that is going to make Mormonism clearly Christian to anyone who is not already predisposed to thinking that it is? I went to the offered links from every Mormon who has answered any of my posts in this thread (well...'answer', like 'Christian', has its own definition to Mormons), and what I found there was deep delusion and things wildly at variance with Christianity. Any kind of Christianity. At least with the vast majority of Protestants, and with Catholics, and with Eastern Orthodox, I can see enough in the points we have in common to say that we're probably worshiping or at least talking about the same God. Y'know, most Protestants, all Catholics, and all Eastern Orthodox are Trinitarians, and at least implicitly (in the case of Protestants; in the case of EO and RCs, it's more explicit) adhere to the early councils and creeds. So there's actually kind of a lot there to say "Yes, these people are Christians, though they may be wrong in this or that respect" (from an Orthodox POV, that is). As my own priest likes to say, the line between a Christian and a non-Christian is different than the line between an Orthodox Christian and a non-Orthodox Christian. But the Mormons are nowhere near being Christians of any kind. Just because they use the Bible (or perhaps it's better said misuse), and they have this figure they call Jesus, or this thing they call the Trinity doesn't make it so. I feel like if the Mormons are going to rightly make the point (which nobody was countering, but hey...credit where credit's due) that wearing a cross doesn't make you a Christian, then it should also be stated that simply calling your movement Christian or your cult a "Church" doesn't make that so, either.

And while it's at least possible to be a Christian without wearing a cross (I don't wear one myself, although I'm not against it in any way; I just don't own any jewelry with crosses on it that still fits me), thus making the Mormons' point very irrelevant, it is most definitely not possible to be a Christian without worshiping the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, One God in three Persons who are homoousios, of one and the same substance, not just united in purpose or action as anyone can be with anyone else.

Mormonism is an anti-Christian, polytheistic cult masquerading as a denomination of Christianity. Lord have mercy on the ones who started it, are raised in it, or got entranced by it at any point along the way. It is a soul-destroying false religion.

 

[Ironhold]

Yes, games. Either that or you and others have severe reading comprehension deficiencies, but I doubt that since you're all able to understand what you want to understand.

You know, I don't think you ever answered my question about whether or not wearing the cross is, in and of itself, enough to mark someone as a "Good Christian".

You're placing so much emphasis on the physical symbol that one wonders about how you see it in regards to everything else.

Which non-mormons have joined you in countering my arguments?

John Davidson

EmmaCat

The former - a former member of the church - outright stated that you're wrong with your arguments. The latter actually apologized on your behalf for going off like you did with an OP so clearly misinformed and insulting.

It was answered but never with any answer that disproved the premise of the OP.

Maybe if you'd leave the goal posts where they were...

You are the ones who turned it into the physical display of crosses being a qualifying or disqualifying factor for being a Christian.

If it's not what the OP is about, then why are you so obsessed with it?

Re-read the OP and if you still think that's what it's about then you have a reading comprehension problem.

How do personal insults reflect the light of Christ?