LDS Mormonism is an enemy of the Cross and therefore not Christian

[Jane_Doe]

There you go with scriptures again----none of your books are scripture. All the books are Mormon. Church History is Mormon. What you term canon and what we term canon is not the same thing. You are calling certain of your books canon and scripture when they are not---except to you. It is the Church History written by Mormons for Mormons--they are Mormon books. They are what you guys read. Again, state what is wrong instead of being general. You said the quotes were not scripture, then you turn around and do admit there are quotes from the BOM and Doctrines and Covenants which you do regard as scripture and are official. So to say none are official makes you the one that is misleading. Bottom line---These are still your believes no matter if the Pope had written them! For you to quote a Catholic publication and states SDA's believe in keeping the Sabbath would not make that statement false.

I'm sorry, but you're not making a lot of sense here, and still seem to be confusing cannon and non-cannon.

 

[mmksparbud]

If you would like me to explain the difference between LDS scripture and something that is written by a guy who happens to be Mormon, I can do that again.


For example, quote #2 is gravely taken out of context. I'd rather not rehash this again myself, but you can read a good recap of it here:


If a website is going to describe LDS beliefs, and omit vast majority of the beliefs, that is a HUGE problem.

Would you like my to recap SDA beliefs and omit Christ? (Again, I think that's a huge problem).

When I'm on a thread that is talking about SDA believes, and I've been on many of them, I do not expect them to be talking about stuff that we all agree on. I fully expect them to be talking about that they disagree about. That is the problem--the disagreements, not the similarities. There are literally thousands and thousands of books written by Christians from the perspective on their denomination that are not "official" scripture. Only the bible is scripture. These books are not put out by the official leaders of each denomination, they are put out by pastors and teachers but they do state their believes. accurately. Someone quoted material written by Dough Bachelor---but they did not quote the part that disagreed with their point of view---so I quoted the right part--and though, Doug does not make the rules and regulations for the church---he is SDA writing SDA believes and written for SDA's --though also given out to non SDA's. I'm not about to jump up and down and say his writings are not scripture---I'm sure everyone knows that! If I should disagree with something he has written, I would say what it was.

 

[Jane_Doe]

When I'm on a thread that is talking about SDA believes, and I've been on many of them, I do not expect them to be talking about stuff that we all agree on. I fully expect them to be talking about that they disagree about. That is the problem--the disagreements, not the similarities.

Your SDA talking to SDA people example doesn't apply to this situation.

The CARM website is CARM people describing LDS beliefs. If CARM wanted to do a fair and honest recap of LDS beliefs they would include all LDS beliefs and not omit things like "Jesus is the Savior".

There are literally thousands and thousands of books written by Christians from the perspective on their denomination that are not "official" scripture. Only the bible is scripture.

And it is dishonest for CARM to pretend that they are quoting scripture when they are not (yes, LDS have an extended scripture library that includes the Bible and other books).

These books are not put out by the official leaders of each denomination, they are put out by pastors and teachers but they do state their believes. accurately. Someone quoted material written by Dough Bachelor---but they did not quote the part that disagreed with their point of view---so I quoted the right part--and though, Doug does not make the rules and regulations for the church---he is SDA writing SDA believes and written for SDA's --though also given out to non SDA's. I'm not about to jump up and down and say his writings are not scripture---I'm sure everyone knows that! If I should disagree with something he has written, I would say what it was.

What would you do if someone came to you and said "Ellen White and Doug Bachelor said this, and you HAVE to believe it because you're SDA!"? (Let's assume that this person does not know whether or not the teachings of EW were considered on par with the Bible).

 

[mmksparbud]

Your SDA talking to SDA people example doesn't apply to this situation.

The CARM website is CARM people describing LDS beliefs. If CARM wanted to do a fair and honest recap of LDS beliefs they would include all LDS beliefs and not omit things like "Jesus is the Savior".


And it is dishonest for CARM to pretend that they are quoting scripture when they are not (yes, LDS have an extended scripture library that includes the Bible and other books).


What would you do if someone came to you and said "Ellen White and Doug Bachelor said this, and you HAVE to believe it because you're SDA!"? (Let's assume that this person does not know whether or not the teachings of EW were considered on par with the Bible).

I get it frequently----If something they say is not what we believe, I would state what that is. If it is what we believe, then I do not care who says it. Her writings are not scripture, the bible is scripture. You can go to anti-SDA sites and quote--again, if they say something out of line, (which they do frequently) I will say what it is. I do prefer to go to official website for a denomination. The problem with that is that the Mormon official website does not ever state any of the real believes, just the basic, Christian friendly sounding stuff. It is only when delving into your books themselves that we get into the truth. That is the difference. All other denominations just flat out state what those believes are. WE say it. We do not evade the issues, heck we hold televised lectures on those subjects where we are different from others--Vive la difference!!

 

[Jane_Doe]

I get it frequently----If something they say is not what we believe, I would state what that is. If it is what we believe, then I do not care who says it. Her writings are not scripture, the bible is scripture. You can go to anti-SDA sites and quote--again, if they say something out of line, (which they do frequently) I will say what it is. I do prefer to go to official website for a denomination. The problem with that is that the Mormon official website does not ever state any of the real believes, just the basic, Christian friendly sounding stuff. It is only when delving into your books themselves that we get into the truth. That is the difference. All other denominations just flat out state what those believes are. WE say it. We do not evade the issues, heck we hold televised lectures on those subjects where we are different from others--Vive la difference!!

All official LDS beliefs are freely on LDS.org. You can view any sermon, lesson, manuals, televised lectures, etc, you want. Nothing hidden at all.

 

[mmksparbud]

Nope---got to dig for it. Like buried treasure---oh yah---I forgot, that is what JS used to do! All of a sudden, the obscurity of it makes sense!!!
Seriously, though---I went to the LDS site when I first started this. I couldn't get anything about Heavenly Mother, or preexistence, or Noah being Gabriel, or God being a man before He was God and so on---not any of it. I had to go to anti- sites to find out that those believes existed and where to go to find out about it and what books to find it in. Then I had to read the stuff. That is the only place I could find the info on what is done in your temples, the "secret" ceremonies. A lot of secrecy, you say because it is sacred. But Catholics are loaded with sacred ceremonies and they do not hide what they do. You hide it because you know it won't go over well. If you had it out in the open to begin with, it wouldn't be such a big deal now. It never would have been acceptable, but at least everyone would already know about it. Christ did nothing hidden--His ceremonies were spelled out. Only the Most Holy Place was not to be public as that was for the safety of the congregation, and the priest had to wear a rope around his leg to be pulled out if he died there! God is not into hidden and darkness--He lets the light in to shine in the corners. We study the word to find all meaning, not just the superficial, there are obscure prophecies, but they are written out there for all to see. No hidden books under the beds for only believers. What may be hard to understand is because of our own darkness of mind.

 

[Hoghead1]

Quick primer:

1. Critics of the church love to deceive people by presenting official-sounding material instead of official material. This is because the official-sounding material hasn't always gone through the process of ensuring its doctrinal accuracy, and so can contain material that isn't in line with the church's teachings.

2. Critics of the church can and will deceive audiences by wrenching material out of context, with some going so far as to outright doctor citations in the process.

3. Pursuant to the above, it falls on everyone to investigate those sources cited by critics.

I say this as a lot of the sources in the list you gave are official-sounding, not official. For example, critics of the church love to cite the original 1950s edition of "Mormon Doctrine" because it contains McConkie's own personal theology in places instead of the church's theology, giving them a gold mine of unorthodox theology in a work that sounds like it's an actual publication. Most actual members of the church, in contrast, will reference the newest edition they can get their hands on because the later editions were revised to eliminate most of the nonsense.

The facts i mentioned through that link, are you saying that they are 'not' part of Mormonism?

Are you saying that nothing on this list is true:

The book of Mormon is more correct than the Bible, (History of the Church, vol. 4, p. 461).

Actual quote:

Concerning this record the Prophet Joseph Smith said: “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.”

So already, the list is wrong in that it's attempting to paraphrase instead of going for the full statement.

The original statement is Joseph Smith advocating the Book of Mormon to the members of the church, a statement that survives in as much a historical concept as a theological one. It's not that the church is directly pitting one work against the other; rather, it's recording what Joseph Smith himself said once upon a time.

Devil, theThe Devil was born as a spirit after Jesus "in the morning of pre-existence," (Mormon Doctrine, p. 192).
Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers and we were all born as siblings in heaven to them both, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163).
GodGod used to be a man on another planet (Mormon Doctrine, p. 321, Joseph Smith,Times and Seasons, vol. 5, p. 613-614, Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 345, Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 333).

This is a common bloody shirt that critics of the church use, and it's usually presented in the most sensational fashion possible.

Source

God is not only our Ruler and Creator; He is also our Heavenly Father. All men and women are literally the sons and daughters of God. “Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal [physical] body” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith[1998], 335).

source

Jesus was willing to come to the earth, give His life for us, and take upon Himself our sins. He, like our Heavenly Father, wanted us to choose whether we would obey Heavenly Father’s commandments. He knew we must be free to choose in order to prove ourselves worthy of exaltation. Jesus said, “Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever” (Moses 4:2).

Satan, who was called Lucifer, also came, saying, “Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor” (Moses 4:1). Satan wanted to force us all to do his will. Under his plan, we would not be allowed to choose. He would take away the freedom of choice that our Father had given us. Satan wanted to have all the honor for our salvation. Under his proposal, our purpose in coming to earth would have been frustrated (see Teachings of Presidents of the Church: David O. McKay[2003], 207).

Everyone who is, was, and ever will be exists as the spirit offspring of Heavenly Father himself. This includes Jesus, who is our Elder Brother, and Satan, who is another child.

"The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as mans . . . ," (D&C 130:22).

full verse:

The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

This teaching shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone, as the Bible itself contains a list of scripture that reference Heavenly Father and Jesus as having bodies of a physical nature.

After you become a good Mormon, you have the potential of becoming a god (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345-347, 354).

Gospel Principles manual lesson #47: exaltation

I'd suggest you take a few to read this chapter, and then we'll get back to this topic.

God, mother goddessThere is a mother god (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 443).
God is married to his goddess wife and has spirit children (Mormon Doctrine, p. 516).

While the theology does posit a Heavenly Mother behind the scenes, the two works you cite are not official; Talmage's works are supplemental, and I've already explained the issues with "Mormon Doctrine".

The truth of the matter is, most critics of the church make a bigger deal of it than we do.

The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. "That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man," (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35).

This is recorded right in the First Vision, with Heavenly Father and Jesus appearing both at the same time in front of Joseph Smith. It's not "hidden" or anything else like that, but out in the open.

We've actually gone several rounds on various threads here on this board about the matter, and I myself have been debating the point for over a decade.

If anything, one of the strongest supports for this is John 17 and the Intercessory Prayer: Jesus is praying that his followers will literally know the same sort of unity that he and Heavenly Father know, something that by definition rules out the three-in-one concept of the Trinity.

Heaven
There are three levels of heaven: telestial, terrestrial, and celestial (Mormon Doctrine, p. 348).

It's the wee hours where I am, and so for this one I'll leave you with the relevant Gospel Principles chapter explaining matters.

The Holy Ghost is a male personage (A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, Le Grand Richards, Salt Lake City, 1956, p. 118, Journal of Discources, vol. 5, p. 179).

Neither work has official weight.

"Therefore we know that both the Father and the Son are in form and stature perfect men; each of them possesses a tangible body . . . of flesh and bones," (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 38).

Did not Jesus eat a meal in front of the disciples and invite them to touch his wounds?

The Bible is quite clear on that.

"The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood--was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 115).

This is another bloody shirt.

If you read the full context, you'll see that Young is basically snapping off an answer to a debate that was going on among some of the members as a means of getting them to set aside what he thought of as a piddling matter not worthy of the time and effort being put into debating it.

It's among the many items in the JoD that were not given the official weight of doctrine, and so has no actual bearing.

"Elohim is literally the Father of the spirit of Jesus Christ and also of the body in which Jesus Christ performed His mission in the flesh . . . " (First Presidency and Council of the Twelve, 1916, God the Father, compiled by Gordon Allred, p. 150).

See above.

If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation [the context is the full gospel including exaltation to Godhood] outside the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon Doctrine, p. 670).

Remember what I said about the first edition of the work containing McConkie's own personal beliefs in lieu of actual theology?

Yeah.

We were first begotten as spirit children in heaven and then born naturally on earth (Journal of Discourse, vol. 4, p. 218).

Also referenced above.

The first spirit to be born in heaven was Jesus (Mormon Doctrine, p. 129).

Jesus is, indeed, the Firstborn Son of Heavenly Father.

The Devil was born as a spirit after Jesus "in the morning of pre-existence," (Mormon Doctrine, p. 192).

It's a common misconception both within and outside of the church that Satan was #2, but this has no support.

"One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation," (Miracle of Forgiveness, by Spencer W. Kimball, p. 206).

While the work is unofficial, the simple truth of the matter is that one doesn't have to look far to see people who have given in to what pivotal Lutheran theologian Deitrich Bonhoeffer refers to as "cheap grace", the notion that one is under no obligation of discipleship once they are "saved". Basically, a person who puts forth "cheap grace" holds that once they make the needed confession of faith, they've got a one-way ticket to Heaven and so that's all they need. This all too often results in everything from backsliding to sloth to outright wickedness in God's name, as they feel that whatever they do is fine with God and so they don't stop to consider their actions.

I've actually seen pamphlets and tracts which literally declare that reciting a prayer at the end of the work is all one needs to be saved. Just utter a few words and you've got a reserved seat in Heaven for when you die. Nothing whatsoever about how, oh by the way, someone who does believe needs to live in such a fashion that their actions back their faith up like we read about in the Epistle of James.

A plan of salvation was needed for the people of earth so Jesus offered a plan to the Father and Satan offered a plan to the father but Jesus' plan was accepted. In effect the Devil wanted to be the Savior of all Mankind and to "deny men their agency and to dethrone god," (Mormon Doctrine, p. 193, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 8).

See above.

Jesus' sacrifice was not able to cleanse us from all our sins, (murder and repeated adultery are exceptions), (Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, 1856, p. 247).

Most critics follow this up by arguing that we teach "blood atonement", the theology which supposedly states that people who are guilty of certain sins must be executed so that they can be saved.

In reality, for all intents and purposes this all goes back to a single sermon in which Brigham Young stated, to paraphrase, "If people understood the eternal consequences of such sins as murder and adultery, they'd volunteer to be executed as part of the penance process rather than die of old age and face God in their sins." It was his way of making a point, not an actual advocacy of religiously-enforced capital punishment.

Good works are necessary for salvation (Articles of Faith, p. 92).

The church holds rather devoutly to the Epistle of James, with its warning that faith is dead if a person's actions don't back it up.

There is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet of God (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p. 188).

Eh?

"The first effect [of the atonement] is to secure to all mankind alike, exemption from the penalty of the fall, thus providing a plan of General Salvation. The second effect is to open a way for Individual Salvation whereby mankind may secure remission of personal sins," (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 78-79).

And the offensive part of this sentiment is...?

"As these sins are the result of individual acts it is just that forgiveness for them should be conditioned on individual compliance with prescribed requirements--'obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel,'" (Articles of Faith, p. 79).
"This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts," (LDS Bible Dictionary, p. 697).
"We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do," (2 Nephi 25:23).

Just as Bonhoeffer spoke of "cheap grace", he also spoke of "costly grace", the kind of grace that requires a person to submit to God's will and carrying the burden of being a Christian. In essence, one can't be a good Christian if they just sit on the couch all day and expect to be saved because they said a prayer some years ago. Instead, their daily walk with Christ must reflect their faith through concrete lifestyle choices and actions that back up their professed beliefs.

I wish I had the time to read your whole post. However, I didn't. What sticks in my mind is your claim that there are three separate Gods. I can see how you would arrive at that conclusion. However, you have to admit that such a tritheistic position will put you under severe fire from many Christian quarters.

 

[Jane_Doe]

mmksparbud's stated that LDS beliefs are not on LDS.org. She gives the following examples

I couldn't get anything about Heavenly Mother,

Not much known about, and not important to daily worship. https://www.lds.org/topics/mother-in-heaven?lang=eng

preexistence

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/premortal-life?lang=eng That one is basic.

Noah being Gabriel

Not official doctrine and not important to daily worship. You can find some speculations on it on LDS.org.

I had to go to anti- sites to find out that those believes existed

Where they lied to you in pretending it was important, scripture, or a Mormon had to be believe.

That is the only place I could find the info on what is done in your temples, the "secret" ceremonies.

Which because you went to an anti site you completely misunderstood (the anti lies didn't help the matter). You could have gotten explanations on LDS.org or by respectfully asking an LDS person.

A lot of secrecy

"Totally" secret... "hidden" right on the official website.

 

[mmksparbud]

mmksparbud's stated that LDS beliefs are not on LDS.org. She gives the following examples


Not much known about, and not important to daily worship. https://www.lds.org/topics/mother-in-heaven?lang=eng


https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/premortal-life?lang=eng That one is basic.


Not official doctrine and not important to daily worship. You can find some speculations on it on LDS.org.


Where they lied to you in pretending it was important, scripture, or a Mormon had to be believe.


Which because you went to an anti site you completely misunderstood (the anti lies didn't help the matter). You could have gotten explanations on LDS.org or by respectfully asking an LDS person.


"Totally" secret... "hidden" right on the official website.

I wasn't looking for what is important or a matter I daily worship, or what is official, just wanted to know what you guys really believe. I didn't even know there was such a believe as a Heavenly Mother so I couldn't look for it! I had to find out about it from the Anti site and then go look for it. The pre existence I found out about here first then went and dug around for it.
No they didn't lie. They stated what you believe, and which of your books to read to find out about it. Respectfully asking an LDS person really got me very wordy yet vague answers--still had to dig to get it all. Can't ask about stuff you do not know even exist! It took over a year to worm it out of everyone! And I just found out about Gethsemane last night.

 

[tickingclocker]

As I've noted earlier, critics of the LDS faith have a history of using official-sounding sources instead of actual, official material.

Many of these sources have no bearing on the church's actual theology, and some are even unorthodox, if not heretical.

But, because they sound official, it's enough to deceive people into thinking that they're legit.

Critics of the LDS and other mormonism factions have a history of having lived and been taught those things you say are not official or practiced by mormonism's churches. The LDS has released a series of officially sanctioned essays from "anonymous" sources revealing what ex-Mormons and never-mo's have been saying all along.

http://www.mormonthink.com/essays-responses-intro.htm

The website above is a Mormon-run site, but asks the questions Mormons are sometimes afraid to.

 

[tickingclocker]

By your same logic, I should presume that people like the Florida minister who burns Korans speaks for you, correct?

After all, he's a "Good Christian" minister, right?

Or perhaps it's time to admit that there's a line to be drawn somewhere, eh?

Q'urans. There's no such thing as Korans.

 

[Jane_Doe]

I wasn't looking for what is important or a matter I daily worship, or what is official, just wanted to know what you guys really believe.

How can you not care what is official? Or what is important? These are critical to figuring out what a belief system is about.

I could reply to rest of your post if you'd like, but this is by far the most important thing that stood out to me.

 

[Ironhold]

Sorry, but you would say that even when the evidence is right in front of you!!! Now, that is blind faith buddy!

You say which parts are not fact then?

Re-read my post.

Works like "Mormon Doctrine" are not authoritative because they were never vetted and sanctioned.

 

[Ironhold]

1. That is interesting. Publications, written by Mormons, for Mormons, are not about Mormonism----None of your writings are scripture so we do understand they are not scripture.
2. It would be much more helpful if you would state exactly what is taken out of context and what it is supposed to mean according to you instead of such a generalization, which you guys are constantly doing.
3. It is not deceptive to omit stuff we already know you supposedly do believe and have no problem with! We are, after all, talking about things we do not hold as Christian concepts, not what is a Christian concept.

Re-read my post.

I quoted what is official in response to the material he cites.

 

[Ironhold]

I wish I had the time to read your whole post. However, I didn't. What sticks in my mind is your claim that there are three separate Gods. I can see how you would arrive at that conclusion. However, you have to admit that such a tritheistic position will put you under severe fire from many Christian quarters.

I'd recommend making the time at some point, as it completely demolishes the canned arguments CARM is using.

Basically, CARM is lying to its readers on this one.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Christians, do not be fooled by the games that the mormons in this thread are playing. This is a serious subject to them because they know that being exposed as enemies of the Cross makes their religion clearly not Christian. That is why you are seeing an all-out, concerted effort on their part to confound this thread and the subject, to mischaracterize it (i.e. it is not about "wearing a cross makes someone Christian" as several of them are trying to say - it is about their aversion to the Cross as a symbol of Christ's power OVER death as said by St. Paul in God's Word several times), to obfuscate the topic, to hijack the thread into being about "LDS Scriptures", etc....

The bottom line is that they do not accept the symbol of the cross as a symbol of their faith because, as they say, they believe the cross is a symbol of death. Their mormon "Jesus" must not have had victory over the cross the way the real Jesus did.

Below are the results from lds.org for a search on "Cross" and then for a search on "CTR". For those who don't know, "CTR" is essentially their substitute for the cross. It is one of their favorite symbols, if not their favorite. They sell and buy CTR everything - jewelry, clothing, publications, etc. You can see that the searches returned far more results for CTR and barely anything for Cross.

You can see also that their entry on the Cross is dismissive and they admit that they believe the Cross symbolizes death only and is NOT a symbol of their faith at all.

You will see also for CTR the results, just in the short previews that come up, talk about CTR rings (a mormon favorite!), CTR patches, CTR charts, etc. including instructions to display this symbol.

So, when mormons try to tell you that they do consider the cross to be a symbol of their faith but it's just that they think symbols are "inward" you can know that they are either ignorant of their own religion or they are lying. Their religion is full of symols which they love to display in their various churches, temples, historic sites, publications, jewelry, clothing - you name it. The only symbol that is glaringly missing from their collection is the Cross. And that is because they are not Christians and they are rather enemies of the cross.

-------------------------------------
Cross
The cross is used in many Christian churches as a symbol of the Savior's death and Resurrection and as a sincere expression of faith. As members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we also remember with reverence the suffering of the Savior. But because the Savior lives, we do not use the symbol of His death as the symbol of our faith.

Additional Information
Our lives must be the expression of our faith. When we are baptized and confirmed, we covenant to take upon ourselves the name of Jesus Christ. The way we live our lives should demonstrate our love for the Savior and His work.

The only members of the Church who wear the symbol of the cross are Latter-day Saint chaplains, who wear it on their military uniforms to show that they are Christian chaplains.

See also Atonement of Jesus Christ; Jesus Christ; Resurrection

—See True to the Faith (2004), 45-46

Prophetic Teachings

• “The Symbol of Our Faith”
  
  
  
  
• “Q&A: Questions and Answers”
  
  Answers are intended for help and perspective, not as pronouncements of Church doctrine.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CTR

• LDS.ORG - Music

... Music; Music Texts. Other Music; CTR. CTR. CTR. Solos to Sing, Submitted
Music (2007-2011). CTR are the letters that remind me to choose the right ...

CTR - New Era Nov. 1994 - new-era

• LDS.ORG - New Era

... CTR. by Elder L. Tom Perry. of the Quorum of the Twelve. Print Share: Facebook;
Twitter; E-mail. ... It's the only path to happiness. CTR. 94951_000_002 ...

CTR Pretzels - Friend Jan. 2012 - friend

• LDS.ORG - Friend

... CTR Pretzels. Heather Brinkerhoff. ... As you make these pretzels, think about
how you can choose the right every day. CTR Pretzels. ...

CTR Ring - Friend Nov. 1992 - friend

• LDS.ORG - Friend

... CTR Ring. By Vanda F. Wadsworth. Print Share: Facebook; Twitter; E-mail.
Choose the right! ... “Where did you get it?”. “It's a CTR ring. I got it in Primary ...

CTR: Choose to Be Ready - New Era June 2010 - new-era

• LDS.ORG - New Era

... CTR: Choose to Be Ready. By Edward S. Watson. ... You've probably grown up
thinking CTR stands for “Choose the Right,” and it certainly does. ...

Amanda Pratt, CTR Spy - Liahona Aug. 2000 - liahona

• LDS.ORG - Liahona

... Next. Amanda Pratt, CTR Spy. By Lori Mortensen. Print Share: Facebook; Twitter;
E-mail. Amanda Pratt, CTR Spy. 20988_000_022 A spy? ...

Supplemental Resources for CTR Lessons

• LDS.ORG - Children

... Children; Supplemental Resources for CTR Lessons. Supplemental
Resources for CTR Lessons. Lesson 1: Happiness Comes ...

Amanda Pratt, CTR Spy - Friend July 1999 - friend

• LDS.ORG - Friend

... Next. Amanda Pratt, CTR Spy. By Lori Mortensen. ... Choose the right way and
be happy (Children's Songbook, page 161). Amanda Pratt, CTR Spy. ...

Sharing Time: Choose the Right - Friend July 1999 - friend

• LDS.ORG - Friend

... You might be tempted for a minute, but you CTR (Choose The Right) and leave
it there. ... You CTR, and soon he is playing with you and your friends. ...

KC's Lost CTR Ring - Friend Aug. 2013 - friend

• LDS.ORG - Friend

... Next. KC's Lost CTR Ring. By Lisa Ballard. (Based on a true story). ... KC's Lost
CTR Ring (click to view larger) Illustrations by Bryan Beach. ...

CTR Rings in the Principal's Office - Liahona Mar. 2007 ...

• LDS.ORG - Liahona

Home: LDS.org; Magazines; Liahona. March 2007; CTR Rings in the Principal's
Office. CTR Rings in the Principal's Office. By Rebeca F. ...

Primary 2: Choose the Right A Lesson 1: Happiness Comes ...

• LDS.ORG - Manual

... so. CTR chart. Display the CTR chart you have made. Tell ... the right. CTR
Stands for Choose the Right. Chalkboard activity. • ...

Primary 2: Choose the Right A Helps for the Teacher

• LDS.ORG - Manual

... CTR stands for Choose the Right. The CTR shield, found in the front of this
manual, and the CTR ring (31362) are used in several lessons. ...

Obedience: Choose the Right

• LDS.ORG - Media Library

... An illustration of the CTR symbol. ... ctr symbol illustration of ctr obedience line
drawing of the ctr symbol ctr shield choose the right drawing of ctr. ...

LDS Media Library

• LDS.ORG - Media Library

American Sign Language (ASL) Bahasa Indonesia Dansk Deutsch English
Español Faka-tonga Français Gagana Samoa Italiano Magyar ...

Joseph: Fast Food

• LDS.ORG - Media Library

A self-employment group member discusses how the self-reliance group
helped him to decide to expand his fast food business.

Trying to Be Like Jesus Christ - Friend Nov. 2000 - friend

• LDS.ORG - Friend

20971_000_024 CTR Ring—A Missionary Tool. By Nichole Jewkes, age 11.
20971_000_025 ... I wear my CTR ring to school every day. People ...

“Choose the Right” - L. Tom Perry

• LDS.ORG - General Conference

... On a recent trip to New Zealand, I met with a mission president who wore a
beautiful tie tack with the inspiring CTR, or “Choose the Right,” emblem. ...

Primary 3 Helps for the Teacher

• LDS.ORG - Manual

... Class Information. The CTR shield, found in the front of this manual,
and the CTR ring are used in several lessons. CTR ...

Wearing My Heart on My Sleeve - New Era Mar. 2010 - new ...

• LDS.ORG - New Era

... While looking at all the patches, I noticed a CTR patch and pointed it out to
my mom. She was surprised that there was even that option. ...

 

[withwonderingawe]

Again----you deny that you believe and then turn around and say exactly the same thing in different words.

It's not denying it, I'm saying you can talk to this Mormon and I believe it but the next Mormon you talk to will say I don't know, not sure I believe that at all. It's not in any Church Manual!

It's okay it has nothing to do with my eternal salvation one way or the other. Sites like CARM take the sensational and try to make it sound like it's the center and end all of the gospel when it's not.

I sit here and read you guys talk back and forth, you don't agree on every jot and title.

No you have shown how slick and manipulative "Mormon speak" is. For it is a fact that BY did in fact state (again, it's been quoted here many times) that Jesus was conceived in the same natural manner as we all are-

When he made that statement there were many Christians who believed, and I suppose they still do, that there was something supernatural about the birth of Christ. They claim that Mary was conceived by virgin birth, she never felt a pain of child birth and when Jesus as born he never cried, it was about as unnatural as any birth could get.

One point about Mormonism which is different than yours is we don't believe God is magical, we believe in a God of law. God didn't just pop that baby in there by magic. He uses natural law, Young knew this and was trying to understand how that could be. I'm sure he played around with the idea but he never used the word sex and he always called Mary a virgin.

I went to the Tanner site because CARM quote from it and just had to laugh, the way they work their deception is amazing. Here they are talking about Mary and quoting the different church leaders and out of the blue they bring in Carlfred B. Broderick, bet no other Mormon on this board even knows who he is. He's was a marriage counselor and taught at UCLA, he graduated from Havard and got his PHD from Cornell, he wrote My Parents Married on a Dare: And Other Favorite Essays on Life. His parents really did marry on a dare. His son and his wife are friends of ours, known them for 30 years. Great people!

The Tanners pull a quote from Br. Broderick

The Mormon writer Carlfred B. Broderick made these comments:
"There are two basic elements in the Gospel view of sexuality as I interpret it from the scriptures. The first is that sex is good—that sexuality, far from being the antithesis of spirituality, is actually on attribute of God...."

They don't give a reference just the quote and then very oddly tie that into God having sex with Mary. They went 2+2 = 100.

First Carlfred does not speak for the Church, he wrote books on marriage and was trying to help young Mormons not to be so uptight about sex, sex is good. How in the world he pulled that out of the scriptures is beyond me and I know the scriptures. Do the God's have sex to make spirit babies, I have no idea .... hope so, but it is his own assumption. We do have a running joke about being eternally pregnant BUT IT IS A JOKE! WE DON'T KNOW!

The point is Carlfred was not discussing the relationship between Mary and God, it wasn't even in the realm of his thought process, to tie the two together is a lie.

Then they quote from Orson Pratt's book The Seer, they don't tell you Young and Pratt got in such a heated argument about what he said in the book Young almost took him out of the Quorum of the Twelve.

"The Seer, by formal action of the First Presidency and Twelve Apostles of the Church was repudiated, and Elder Orson Pratt himself sanctioned the repudiation. There was a long article published in the Deseret News on the 23rd of August, 1865, over the signatures of the First Presidency and Twelve setting forth that this work–the Seer–together with some other writings of Elder Pratt,were inaccurate. In the course of that document, after praising, as well they might, the great bulk of the work of this noted apostle, they say: “But the Seer, the Great First Cause, the article in the Millennial Star, of Oct. 15, and Nov. 1, 1850 contains doctrine which we cannot sanction and which we have felt to disown, so that the Saints who now live, and who may live hereafter, may not be misled by our silence, or be left to misinterpret it. Where these objectionable works or harts of works are bound in volumes, or otherwise, they should be cut out and destroyed." (Fair)

Not telling you about the repudiation makes their whole story a lie! It's a lie!

Mormons speculate we ponder but that does not make it doctrine. The Tanners have taken advantage of this and tried to present speculation as gospel truth. If you are gullible enough to believe them that is your fault not ours.

 

[mmksparbud]

One of the central tenets in Christianity is Christ's atonement on the Cross. In this, Christ redeemed us even though none of us deserve it, plus He claimed victory over sin and death. The Cross is the symbol of the power that lies behind Christianity.

That's why Paul talked about it the way he did:
Galatians 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

And perhaps the most powerful statement:
I Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Paul also warns of that there are enemies of the Cross:
Phillipians 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:

In the Mormon religion, they are gravely set against the Cross. You will not see a cross in ANY Mormon buildings or publications. When you ask them, they say something like, "Well if someone you loved was shot to death, would you have a symbol of a gun on your necklace or in a picture?" That explanation makes it clear that they have no comprehension of the power of Christ through the Cross. It makes it clear that they are diametrically opposed to what Paul thought and taught about the Cross. It makes it clear that they are clearly against what all the rest of Christianity accepts about the Cross.

Furthermore, while they are careful to shun the Cross of Christ, they do enjoy embellishing their temples and their magical garments with all sorts of occultic and masonic symbols such as the compass and square, beehives, fig leafs, pentagrams and inverted pentagrams, hexagrams, and many other such occultic symbols.

This issue of the Mormons' rejection of the Cross of Christ is one of the clear signs that Mormonism is absolutely not Christian at all. Clearly, the preaching of the cross is foolishness to them.

Just to remind everyone what the OP states.-----There was no question asked.

"One of the central tenets in Christianity is Christ's atonement on the Cross. In this, Christ redeemed us even though none of us deserve it, plus He claimed victory over sin and death. The Cross is the symbol of the power that lies behind Christianity."
I Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.


https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/19.15-19?lang=eng#14

Gethsemane
There he prayed and suffered in Gethsemane for the sins of mankind

13 Wherefore, I command you to repent, and keep the commandments which you have received by the hand of my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., in my name;

14 And it is by my almighty power that you have received them;
18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.

You can also study an inspiring account of the proceedings in chapter 33 of Jesus the Christ, a book by James E. Talmage.
Interesting to note that the official LSD site sends you to read Talmage---yet they can say he is not an official publication.

THIS IS THE REASON THEY AVOID THE CROSS:

"It was not physical pain, nor mental anguish alone, that caused Him to suffer such torture as to produce an extrusion of blood from every pore; but a spiritual agony of soul such as only God was capable of experiencing. No other man, however great his powers of physical or mental endurance, could have suffered so; for his human organism would have succumbed, and syncope would have produced unconsciousness and welcome oblivion. In that hour of anguish Christ met and overcame all the horrors that Satan, “the prince of this world”g could inflict. The frightful struggle incident to the temptations immediately following the Lord’s baptismh was surpassed and overshadowed by this supreme contest with the powers of evil.

The further tragedy of the night, and the cruel inflictions that awaited Him on the morrow, to culminate in the frightful tortures of the cross, could not exceed the bitter anguish through which He had successfully passed."
https://www.lds.org/manual/jesus-the-christ/chapter-33?lang=eng

They dot not preach the cross----they preach Gethsemane.

 

[mmksparbud]

I think I am done with this thread----It is enough to see this from their own site and this is what they believe. They are entitled to believe it---just should not call it Christian.

 

[withwonderingawe]

LOL---Not official----written by Mormons for Mormons, published by Mormons---but not official---Doctrines and Covenants and the Book of Mormon are not official??? History of the Mormon church not official?? I guess the word "official" needs clarifying---as defined by Mormonism that is.

The History of the Church by Joseph Smith was not actually written by Joseph Smith. The first 40% was overseen by Joseph but written by his scribes. After Joseph died they packed up his journals and notebooks and headed to Utah. After a few years they opened up their trunks and started to piece together the history. They left it in the first person but in the preface they explain what they did. Young sent out letters to the church members and asked them to write about some of their experiences so they could add it to the history. They used William Clayton's personal journal, notes from Eliza R. Snow and a lot of others to supplement where Joseph's own writings were blank.

It really is pretty good as far as detailing where Joseph was when, giving the dates of different revelations and his day to day life but it has some draw backs. It often puts words in Joseph's mouth which he didn't say, they get second and third hand reports so some of it would never whole up in a court setting. They did have a stash of letters which went back and forth because they made copies of the letters. Every meeting held had minutes taken and his speeches were recorded by scribes.

Over the last few years there as been a group of LDS and Non LDS scholars going back through the mounds and mounds of papers. They are being published in a series of books called The Joseph Smith Papers. A lot of them have been put on the internet for all to read;
http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/