Eternal vs conditional security, or OSAS vs LOS

[ZacharyB]

I'm willing to continue this discussion but only if you can provide a rational explanation for the 20+ passages already posted that clearly teach justification can be lost.

He cannot, and you should not (continue to waste your time).

 

[StanJ]

OK. Then what is your security based on? If you have no security, then just what have you believed in? For what, exactly?

What security? Read Hebrew 6:19. Then read the lyrics of this great old hymn; http://www.hymnsite.com/lyrics/umh368.sht
We have the armor of God to give us protection along with 2 Peter 3:17

 

[StanJ]

Art thou serious?

As a heart attack!

http://www.khouse.org/articles/2014/1171/

 

[FreeGrace2]

The ONLY requirement to remaining justified before God is to continue to have supernatural faith and love for God (which are both gifts from God, poured out upon the believer when he was converted).

The Bible never says or even suggests that justification is based on continuing in anything. If so, what verse says that?

EVERYONE (without any exceptions whatsoever) who dies with supernatural faith and love for God will go to heaven.

Please define the difference between supernatural faith and what the Bible calls simply 'faith'.

As the parable of the sower shows, not everyone who believes will necessarily endure until the end. Some believers, despite their faith, will turn away from God because they love their sins more than God or are more concerned with the affairs of this world. Those believers, as the parable shows, will not be saved.

Where in the parable of the soils is it shown that such believers will not be saved?? Specifically.

I said this:
"And, I've been able to explain EVERY verse in the LOS doctrine and show that they aren't speaking of loss of salvation."

Great! What post was it?

The comment is in regard to the very many threads on LOS vs ES. One has to follow along in order to keep up.

However, please choose the single very best verse that UN-ambiguously teaches that salvation can be lost, and I'll be happy to exegete it and show what I meant by my comment.

I spent an hour explaining them to you as I'm sure others have as well. It's not anyone else's fault if you chose to ignore it.

I ignore false teaching. I pay attention to truth. LOS isn't the truth.

If you don't agree, I'd like to know which Christians in the 1st century agreed with your interpretation of scripture regarding grace? Clement? Ignatius? Polycarp? Someone else? I'd like to confirm whether any early Christians agreed with your interpretation of scripture.

I guess you missed my point about the "early Christian writers", who, by the way, began in the 2nd century. The 1st century writers were the human authors of Scripture, who I pay very close attention to. I'm not interested in the commentaries of those who followed.

If you are unable to explain the verses that refute OSAS, I understand. I haven't found anyone else who could refute them either.

Don't be silly. Just provide the single very best and most clear verse there is that teaches loss of salvation and I'll demonstrate what I meant above.

But once again, this is merely a dodge for having to explain the OP verses to show that they aren't teaching ES. It seems very few LOS types are willing (or able?) to do that.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"OK. Then what is your security based on? If you have no security, then just what have you believed in? For what, exactly?"

What security?

That's what I thought.

So, you have no assurance of salvation. Only some hope, as in wishful thinking, huh?

Read Hebrew 6:19. Then read the lyrics of this great old hymn; http://www.hymnsite.com/lyrics/umh368.sht
We have the armor of God to give us protection along with 2 Peter 3:17

But you just said "what security?"

I was hoping (wishful thinking) that you'd understand that Jesus Christ is your security, but apparently that isn't so.

Sorry about that.

 

[samir]

The Bible never says or even suggests that justification is based on continuing in anything. If so, what verse says that?

It's all over the New Testament. I could probably post 100 verses but I think it's better if you read the New Testament for yourself instead of just relying on the verses your pastor quoted to you. Note that the Bible never says or even suggests that once a person who is justified at one point in time will remain justified forever.

Please define the difference between supernatural faith and what the Bible calls simply 'faith'.

The bible says faith comes from God which makes it supernatural.

However, please choose the single very best verse that UN-ambiguously teaches that salvation can be lost, and I'll be happy to exegete it and show what I meant by my comment.

Galatians 5 and 1Cor 6 both said "will not inherit the kingdom" and you couldn't refute them nor show where any Christians agreed with you.

Another good passage is John 15:5-6:

"I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. (NKJV)"

Rom 11:21-22 also clearly refutes OSAS:

"For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. (NKJV)"

I guess you missed my point about the "early Christian writers", who, by the way, began in the 2nd century. The 1st century writers were the human authors of Scripture, who I pay very close attention to. I'm not interested in the commentaries of those who followed.

You claimed "the entire concept of grace was lost by the second century" which implies the concept of grace was understood earlier. However, it looks like you don't have any evidence that any of the early Christians interpreted the scriptural passages on grace the same way you do. If your interpretation of scripture is correct, why isn't there any evidence of any early Christians who agree with your interpretation?

 

[Born Again2004]

There are dozens of scripture passages which make it clear that our salvation is conditional and can be lost.

We must endure to be saved.

God said he would NEVER forsake you OR leave you!
Jesus said he would NEVER lose who God gives him!
Either God and Jesus tell the truth OR they both lie about this.
I just don't see how one can live in denial of this!

 

[StanJ]

It's relevant because the Bible teaches that spiritual gifts come from God the Holy Spirit. Therefore, spiritual gifts are irrevocable.

It's totally irrelevant and your response indicates you obviously don't know. Now where exactly does the Bible say spiritual gifts are irrevocable?

The gift of redemption.

What is being dealt with here is the gift of righteousness brought about by faith. That is the context, as Paul reiterates in Ephesians 2:8-9.

How about the words "the gift brought justification"? And "of the gift of righteousness"?
do these not count? The words justification and righteousness are closely related in the Greek.

How about we trust the credentials Greek Scholars to render it into English and we just deal with the English, okay? The gift which was Jesus became our righteousness. It's pretty simple. In ourselves no man has righteousness but in Jesus he becomes our righteousness, just as he becomes our Mediator, and our Confessor, and Our Redeemer, and our Savior. He is the total package. One gift but many attributes.

In reference to my comments about John 5:24:
What does John 11 have to do with John 5:24? Jesus was clear; those who believe HAVE eternal life. So the tense here IS absolutely relevant, but just not to those for whom it is rather inconvenient.
Denying this truth doesn't make it go away.

Did you not even bother to read John 11? I guess I can't blame you if you find it hard to understand because Martha found it hard to understand and she was talking to him face-to-face, but when Jesus said to her what he did and verses 25 to 26 she clearly understood by her response in v27. Yes I do believe Jesus was cleared it's just that you don't fully comprehend what it was telling you so I suggest you read Philippians 3:10-14, and let Paul put it into perspective for you. He recognized that he did not HAVE eternal life, but he did understand what it took to actually acquire it and have it.

Impossible for Paul to have contradicted Jesus. Jesus SAID believers HAVE eternal life. Not "will have" it.

Then you don't believe Hebrews 9:27, or John 11:25? The the point is you worry too much about the tense instead of understanding the sense in which Jesus & Paul were talking. Figuratively one may have eternal life and have passed from Death To Life but literally that doesn't happen until it actually literally happens. This is a sense that you're not getting and which is why you miss use the word. It's no different then when the word says 'the soul that sins dies'... did you die when you first sinned? To use an old Beatles song as an analogy, you may have a Ticket To Ride, but it does you no good if you throw it away or don't end up getting on the train.

I said this:
"That isn't the point or issue. The issue is ONCE GIVEN, the gifts of God cannot be thrown away, lost, revoked, forfeited, sold, or otherwise disposed of."
Let's examine the facts of the matter. Where are any verses that DO teach that any of God's gifts, once received, CAN BE lost, revoked, forfeited, sold, or otherwise disposed of?

Well that is what you're saying now but that isn't the point and you haven't demonstrated that all gifts fall into this category that you have insisted they do. Apparently you have totally forgotten about King Solomon's gift, or the parable that Jesus taught in Matthew 25:14-30?

So, the evidence from Scripture is that none of that is true. Hence, God's gifts are irrevocable. Which the Scriptures most directly DO say.

Now all you're doing is avoiding and obfuscating. Which gift does the Bible say is irrevocable? It does not say that ALL his gifts are irrevocable.

What do you think it means?

It means in the instance that it is used that God cannot revoke what he has given. You somehow seem to think that includes revoking our Free Will which of course it doesn't.

So, still thinking that man is able to somehow free himself of the gift of eternal life, huh? So where is that taught? And I mean UN-ambiguously taught.

Oh you mean like you're being unambiguous? How about Matthew 10:33?

In fact, that idea is completely refuted, once again, by Jesus Himself in John 10:28.
"and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."

I'm really not sure what idea you're referring to because you keep on running back and forth between different scriptures that mean different things. This is the problem when you try to cherry-pick verses out of context to use them to enforce something else that is not enforceable.
Jesus was talking about the power of God and that he was God, which is why they wanted to stone him. There is no issue that God is invincible or all powerful, the issue is does he interfere with Man's Free Will and of course the answer is no. Apostasy is US leaving God not him leaving us. God does not protect us to shelter us from apostasy or the Bible would not say that there will be a great apostasy. You can equivocate all you want about apostasy meaning loss of salvation but that only shows your insistence on equivocating and not the fact that you actually understand the word of God.

Your views are in direct contrast to Jesus' teaching. Those He gives eternal life to WILL NEVER PERISH. That's a direct promise. How can anyone argue against His words?

No they are actually in full harmony with Jesus's words and teaching. What does Jesus tell us in Matthew 24:13, or Paul in 2 Timothy 2:12?
You see God's word never contradicts itself but God's word does interpret itself. You seem to only be willing to accept verses that support your point of view and ignore others that call into question your understanding of those verses. We must always read God's word from the perspective that it is all true and that if one part seems to contradict what we think another part says then we need to reexamine our perspective of that other part until they are in harmony with one another. That's the only way you can fully understand and appreciate the written word of God.

Furthermore, the words "no one" means "no person". Those who consider themselves "persons", or humans are included in that phrase. So, no human is capable of removing any believer from the hand of Jesus, or His Father (v.29).

That's right, but it also doesn't include God and those that he is protecting, as you put it. Sheep wander and get lost and die. So do believers.

Are you greater than either of them? That's basically what Jesus is implying. It would take someone greater than them to remove any believer (saved, justified, forgiven, adopted as son) from their hand.

No I am not greater than them and Jesus isn't implying anything he stating the truth. It's not much different than the scripture that states nothing can separate us from the love of God, Rom 8:38-39, however in both cases the scriptures do not negate or interfere with the Free Will that we have been given by God himself. You failed understand or accept that apostasy is a matter of our free will. It has nothing to do with outside forces it has everything to do with we ourselves decided that we no longer believe in except God and his word. If you want a famous example of this all you have to do is read up on Charles Templeton. Then compare that to Billy Graham and see how to men who started out together in Ministry and it up on opposite ends of the spectrum. That had to do with nothing but their own free will.

And, no human is greater than them. Therefore, not even the believer himself can do ANYTHING to be removed from their hand.

Well this clearly indicates your flawed logic by arriving at this conclusion that is not shown in Scripture. This sounds more like the dogma you've learned than something you've properly exegeted from within scripture. Jesus is addressing all those outside of the relationship between him and those that are saved. None of these guarantees are ever directed at the person being saved. A point you have obviously never considered?

Correct. There are no verses that teach that one can lose either salvation or eternal life. Just a lot of assumption about what the warnings are about.

Equivocating and misrepresenting what I do say doesn't help your credibility one iota. In the grand scheme of things, semantics doesn't matter to God at all, because he knows what he says and he's only accountable to himself. However because I do have to deal with people who do tend to rely on equivocation and semantics to misrepresent God's word, I have to be able to deal with things that are not the real issue. Effectively if one walks away from their salvation then one is basically losing their salvation, but I agreed to the fact that the Bible does not say we lose our salvation, it just says that we CAN fall or walk away from it, hence all the warnings to be careful and avoid doing so. As far as eternal life is concerned, one only needs to read Matthew 25:32-34 to see that many people I have a big surprise coming.

I said this:
"Regarding your post, maybe not. But regarding Paul's writing, I absolutely do understand what he wrote."
Sorry that I didn't include the exact context for my comments, but if you would cite what is meant by "Paul's writing", I will be happy to exegete.
I said this:
"Let's examine exactly what it says:
"Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up."
What does "harvest" suggest or mean? It means bearing fruit. Is your view that this verse teaches that salvation is based on bearing fruit? I know some who claim so.
The verse teaches that we are not to give up (become weary) in going good. Those who don't give up will reap a harvest.
There is nothing here about either gaining or maintaining salvation. In fact, it isn't even about salvation. So why cite the verse?"
My comments are directly IN context with this. There is nothing in v.1-5 that speak of loss of salvation. Instead, Paul is contrasting our lives either "in the Spirit", meaning being filled with the Holy Spirit, or living by the flesh, which Paul himself elaborated on at length in Romans 6 and 7.

I think that rather too try and reconstruct this after-the-fact you up to deal with it using the features of this forum, as you evidently know how to do. All you're doing here is muddying up the waters and I must say I'm not sure if it's deliberate or unintended.

Why assume this means eternal death? Why can't it be divine discipline including physical death? The soul cannot be destroyed, and will exist forever, either with God, or apart from Him in the lake of fire, called the second death.
There are many verses that teach that God's divine discipline can and does include physical death.

Because that's exactly what destruction means. Discipline is not destruction and it's never used in conjunction with destruction.
Hebrews 9:27 says were all appointed to die once, and that is not disciplined that's just the way God made it. What is different between Believers and unbelievers is that we will be resurrected to eternal life, and they will not.

I've just given a biblically based answer that is YES they can.

Which I refuted and now all you're doing is repeating yourself without any corroboration.

Please point out why "destruction" cannot refer to destruction of one's physical body as God's discipline for giving up.

First of all because the Greek word being used isφθορά (phthora), which does not conduct any form of discipline, and secondly because the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus. When one is destroyed one does not receive eternal life.

 

[StanJ]

That's what I thought.
So, you have no assurance of salvation. Only some hope, as in wishful thinking, huh?
But you just said "what security?"
I was hoping (wishful thinking) that you'd understand that Jesus Christ is your security, but apparently that isn't so.
Sorry about that.

Never said I had no assurance, I said I had no security. God's word gives me plenty of assurance but obviously you don't understand the difference between the two words. People of Faith don't need security they just need faith. God said it, I believe it, that settles it! That's all anybody should need if they truly believe. The following hymn from my initial days of salvation says it all;

 

[Born Again2004]

What is being dealt with here is the gift of righteousness brought about by faith. That is the context, as Paul reiterates in Ephesians 2:8-9.

Got to be one of, if not my favorite Bible verse! Let me ask both @StanJ and @FreeGrace2 a question......Once saved, is that not a gift of Grace from God and both a gift of salvation and a gift redemption?

 

[StanJ]

Got to be one of, if not my favorite Bible verse! Let me ask both @StanJ and @FreeGrace2 a question......Once saved, is that not a gift of Grace from God and both a gift of salvation and a gift redemption?

Jesus provided reconciliation & redemption for all of mankind, by dying for sin once, for all. Rom 6:10, Hebrew 9:28 & 1 Peter 3:18.
Salvation only happens when we accept that redemption & reconciliation and ask Jesus into our hearts as our savior.

 

[Born Again2004]

Jesus provided reconciliation & redemption for all of mankind, by dying for sin once, for all. Rom 6:10, Hebrew 9:28 & 1 Peter 3:18.
Salvation only happens when we accept that redemption & reconciliation and ask Jesus into our hearts as our savior.

Been there, done that years ago...not sure what your point to me is.....regardless, it all happens in God's timing and it all happens pretty quick!

 

[Thursday]

God said he would NEVER forsake you OR leave you!
J !

2 Chron 2:15
The LORD is with you when you are with him. If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will forsake you.

2 Tim 2:12
if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;

 

[StanJ]

Been there, done that years ago...not sure what your point to me is.....regardless, it all happens in God's timing and it all happens pretty quick!

You asked, I answered, that would be the point. If you were just going to be snarky about it why did you even ask?

 

[Travis93]

I think believers during this dispensation we have eternal security, but it's not like that throughout the whole Bible. Jesus presented a very conditional and works based salvation in the Gospels. Things like if we don't forgive others we won't be forgiven, if we deny Jesus he will deny us, if we don't endure to the end we won't be saved, etc. Prior to the death of Jesus and his blood atonement, people were righteous based on their own actions, salvation as a free gift was not there. I also think after the rapture happens and the Time of Jacobs Trouble starts salvation becomes conditional again due to the Mark of the Beast. Instead of trying to twist the verses that disprove eternal security like Hebrews 10:26 and 2 Peter 2:21-22 I just attribute them to a future time period. After all, if we can lose salvation, then Hebrews 6:4-6 proves we can never get it back. It makes more sense to me that these refer to people who get saved then take the Mark of the Beast, which condemns you to Hell.

 

[StanJ]

I think believers during this dispensation we have eternal security, but it's not like that throughout the whole Bible. Jesus presented a very conditional and works based salvation in the Gospels. Things like if we don't forgive others we won't be forgiven, if we deny Jesus he will deny us, if we don't endure to the end we won't be saved, etc. Prior to the death of Jesus and his blood atonement, people were righteous based on their own actions, salvation as a free gift was not there. I also think after the rapture happens and the Time of Jacobs Trouble starts salvation becomes conditional again due to the Mark of the Beast. Instead of trying to twist the verses that disprove eternal security like Hebrews 10:26 and 2 Peter 2:21-22 I just attribute them to a future time period. After all, if we can lose salvation, then Hebrews 6:4-6 proves we can never get it back. It makes more sense to me that these refer to people who get saved then take the Mark of the Beast, which condemns you to Hell.

The point is that Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10 don't refer to losing salvation, they refer to apostasy, those who shrink back, those who fall away, and that's not the same thing as losing salvation. Nobody can lose salvation but they can decide to walk away from it because they no longer believe. We would not be warned about entering and pressing on if it wasn't for the possibility that we can fall away. Human nature is what it is and in some people their desire to be self-centered far outweighs anything else.

 

[Born Again2004]

The LORD is with you when you are with him. If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will forsake you.

This does not mean that you can "fall away" to all out rejection of Christ once he is inside and you in him.

if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;[/QUOTE]
Yes, if you deny him...don't believe in him in the first place.....is he in you? Can you every really find yourself denying his saving grace?

 

[Born Again2004]

You asked, I answered, that would be the point. If you were just going to be snarky about it why did you even ask?

Sorry you were so insulted, that wasn't my intention....just wanted to know where you stand since others are reading this...I am comfortable with my salvation....sorry yours is not as secure!

 

[StanJ]

Sorry you were so insulted, that wasn't my intention....just wanted to know where you stand since others are reading this...I am comfortable with my salvation....sorry yours is not as secure!

I wasn't insulted. I've been doing this schtick for a long time and I can guarantee you that I don't get easily insulted but having said that I am very confrontational. Not bragging that's just the way it is. In case you hadn't noticed Jesus doesn't want us to be comfortable in our salvation.
As I've said a couple of times now, nobody's salvation is secure. They either believe their saved or they don't believe they're saved. Those who fall away, are going to fall away regardless. Paul said it very succinctly in Philippians 2:12-13;
Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

 

[Thursday]

This does not mean that you can "fall away" to all out rejection of Christ once he is inside and you in him.

Yes it does. The bible is quite clear that we can be cut off from the vine to which we are connected.

Sin can shipwreck our faith. Dead faith will not save you.
We must endure to be saved.

Not even Paul claimed that he couldn't fall away:

1 Cor 9:27
No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

Phil 3
10I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.

12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.