Has the Catholic Church become the church that Jesus wanted or not?

[Lazarus Short]

What is the meaning of 'overcomers'?

As Jesus said of Himself, it is those who have overcome the world. Their rewards are listed in the Revelation.

 

[Job8]

I am on a hard journey. 52 years a catholic. I have questions that i need answered. I pray that God will guide me.

I do feel strongly about these questions. I do feel as though a lot of thing in the Catholic church dont add up at the moment for me.

Well you seem to be at the same point where most of the Reformers were. Things were not adding up, and even after the Reformation, nothing changed within the RCC. On top of that you have a clueless Pope today. So what did the Reformers do? They went directly to the Word of God to determine what is true and what is false. You might want to read Erasmus' book The Praise of Folly for some laughs and some truths.

 

[Erose]

I have often thought about this.

Has the Catholic Church become the church that Jesus wanted or not?

Yes

Has it grown into an ugly monster or not?

Not

Has it been true to the words of Jesus or has it gone its own way?

Stayed true to her Spouse.

I am sometimes confused by these things. I have read so many good Catholic books and watched many good Catholic videos. I still keep asking myself the above questions.

Its natural to do so. Faith is not easy at times, and we must remember that it comes from God, so pray for Him to help you grow yours. Doubts though will always be there, don't let them blind you.

How do we know the church has been heading in the right direction all these years? By the Holy Spirit? Through Tradition?

Because Christ promised that she would.

I see what the church has become and there are quite a few parts of it that i dont like. Maybe i will list them later.

On this matter, you need to realize that the Church is made up of people, and people are messy. Families are messier, and that is what the Church is. But remember that we need to remove the log from our own eye before we can see how to remove the splinter from our brother's eye.

Anyone else have the same questions?

Used to, but no longer. I came to Catholicism through conversion, and quite honestly I vetted the Church hard, and found it to be true. Her teachings make sense to me. They are rational and tied together in a beautiful work of art, God's Deposit of Faith. No other church or religion IMO is as complete a picture as Catholicism.

When getting down in the dumps about the people and leaders of our Faith, remember the Jews, and how messy they were at times. To think that Catholics are going to be perfect is just irrational.

 

[Erose]

Leadership in the churches (plural) was very horizontal, not vertical, spread out, as you say. As Paul describes, there were many charisms and ministries within a community, with little indication of a lot of levels of authority. The ecumenical councils were still centuries into the future at the time of the first apostles. If you are referring to the "council" of Jerusalem, that was mostly a meeting of Paul and Barnabas and some people from Antioch with other Apostles in Jerusalem, but did not include leaders from other communities.

The Church's visibility now is much different than it was back then.

You do realize that the Church has grown drastically since then right? Unity, true unity especially when speaking of billions of brethren, requires a hierarchical structure, that is just the way it is. A flat structure works only when everyone on the top knows each other, and are in unison.

 

[Sumwear]

Well you seem to be at the same point where most of the Reformers were. Things were not adding up, and even after the Reformation, nothing changed within the RCC. On top of that you have a clueless Pope today. So what did the Reformers do? They went directly to the Word of God to determine what is true and what is false. You might want to read Erasmus' book The Praise of Folly for some laughs and some truths.

And boy, how many denominations did that result in.

 

[Paidiske]

even after the Reformation, nothing changed within the RCC.

Actually not true. The counter-reformation changed a good deal. Whether it made the right changes or enough changes are arguments we can have, but that it made changes is historically indisputable.

 

[Righttruth]

As Jesus said of Himself, it is those who have overcome the world. Their rewards are listed in the Revelation.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Job8]

Actually not true. The counter-reformation changed a good deal. Whether it made the right changes or enough changes are arguments we can have, but that it made changes is historically indisputable.

What the Counter-Reformation did was entrench the existing errors, as seen in the Council Trent. Superficial changes did not change the intrinsic character of the RCC.

 

[Job8]

And boy, how many denominations did that result in.

Reformed Theology was more or less consistent throughout the Reformed Churches, so the denominations do not reveal the initial outcome.

 

[Goatee]

maybe
I kind of see that as between them and God, He will judge them
it is not our place to judge them, we are to work with charity and love for all people
and to work with humility following our Bishops

saint paul says that we are all one body but many parts, not every part is made to be in administrative functions

also, the Early Church seemed to be a lot more serious about authority then we are now
what did you think of the writtings of St. Ignatius?


like I said, it is not like Jesus just left us with a book that we had to guess at what it really means
He left us with a living Church to guide us closer to Him
so yeah, I can say that they are not right because it was made up 1500 years after the start of the church and it was written by people with political motivations

also judge it by its fruits
did that view lead to splintering of denominations, to the point where Christian unity is a pipe dream
every other Schism ended in like one or two or 3 break aways
this ended in dozens, it led to all kinds of strange doctrines

But, even 1500 years later it doesn't mean we are right and they are def wrong! People have different opinions. They grow, they learn more. Maybe it was the Holy spirit directing them? Have not the Catholic church got political motives too?

What if the splinter groups were formed 'because' our doctrines are wrong? What if, the Holy Spirit is guiding them to the truth? We could be wrong!!! Look at the list i produced. Lots of things just dont add up. Lots of things were brought out a long time after the early church was formed!

Paul said Bishops should Marry. Then the church said no! Who was right?

During the Apostles time, Mary was not mentioned in the NT. If she is that important, which i must add, i think she is, why was she not mentioned?

 

[Goatee]

I do believe that the Church was built on the Faith of St. Peter not on St. Peter himself as do the Orthodox

This makes a lot of sense to me

 

[Goatee]

Unfortunately, it went the wrong way from the start, having mistook Jesus to mean that Peter was the rock He was referring to, rather than Peter's correct identification of Jesus being the Christ, and how Peter arrived at that truth.

If understood correctly, Jesus meant, then, that He would build His church upon Himself, the Christ...and in the same manner of receiving the spirit of God, just as Peter had that very moment.

It was never about Peter, but about how God had come to him in spirit: These are the times of which it is written: "I will pour out my spirit on all flesh." Joel 2:28

This makes sense too. Peter had strong faith and Jesus was saying he was going to build his church on such a faith. This is how i have read it! I do believe the Catholic church have interpreted it to suit themselves!!!!

Yes, i am seeking. Yes i am still a Catholic but that doesn't stop me from searching out things that matter to me in my faith. Maybe God is telling me to do this?

 

[Rhamiel]

These are some things that have been invented by the Catholic church:

What Christ and the Apostles Knew Nothing Of

When were these human laws introduced?

Holy Water.............................................. 120
Penance.................................................. 157
Monks.................................................... .348
The Latin Mass......................................... 394
Extreme Unction....................................... 550
Purgatory................................................. 593
Praying to Mary and the saints.................... 715
Image Worship......................................... 787
Kissing the Pope's Foot.............................. 809
Canonisation of the Deceased..................... 973
Baptism of Bells....................................... 1000
Celibacy of Priests.................................... 1015
Sale of Indulgences.................................. 1119
The Inquisition......................................... 1204
Transubstantiation.................................... 1210
Auricular Confession................................. 1215
The Feast of Corpus Christi........................ 1264
The Crowning of the Pope with the Threefold Crown 1311
The Infallibility of the Pope........................ 1870

@dzheremi did a good job with some of the list
Penance 157? but in the Old Testament we see the people of Nineveh doing penance
or in the Gospels we hear Jesus say that some demons can only be cast out with fasting and prayer
also "Feast of Corpus Christi 1264" yes, liturgical feasts have changed over time
it is a celebration, like Mothers Day was invented too..... and the 4th of July
that does not mean they are bad things....

Transubstantiation and Papal Infallibility are both way older then the dates you give
the dates just show when particular wording started to be used, the new way of describing something that was believed waaaay before the dates listed

praying to saints was way before 715, we can find inscriptions on catacomb walls, people asking the martyrs to pray for them

this list is horrible, other people have discredited it

But, even 1500 years later it doesn't mean we are right and they are def wrong!

so Jesus died on a tree just to allow 1500 years of wrong beliefs?
wow that is a weak Jesus, a God who can not even protect His own Church?

I believe in a powerful Jesus, one who does not allow stuff like that to happen for over 1,000 years

People have different opinions

an opinion is like "I think this ice cream is too chocolaty"
that is not the kind of thing we are talking about, we are talking about beliefs
opinions are not right or wrong
beliefs are either right or wrong

They grow, they learn more. Maybe it was the Holy spirit directing them? Have not the Catholic church got political motives too?

who do you mean by "them"?
because the Reformation is full of different groups who preached contradictory beliefs
not really acting in the spirit of unity or brotherly love, you know since the Church of England would burn Catholics and Lutherans at the stake and Luther rejected Zwingli

What if the splinter groups were formed 'because' our doctrines are wrong?

well then that would mean we were wrong
I just have no reason to believe this is the case
it is just a hypothetical at this point, why should I give it serious consideration?
it is like saying "what if we have mean thoughts because alien ghosts are beaming them into our brains?"
like yeah we can ask that question, but we have no reason to think that is the reality of the situation

Paul said Bishops should Marry. Then the church said no! Who was right?

where does Paul say that Bishops should marry?
Paul says that it is better to remain unmarried, like him
if he thinks all Bishops should be married, then he is undermining his own authority

rather Paul says the Bishop should be "husband of one wife"
that is not opposed to unmarried
that is opposed to two wives

 

[Rhamiel]

Maybe God is telling me to do this?

maybe
maybe not

how do you know if it is from God or not?

did you read my quote from St. Ignatius of Antioch?
I do hope that helped you
he had no worldly power, he learned the Gospel from St. John himself, and he died because he would not reject Christ
this is the man we should be learning from
he could have saved himself at any time if he would just have renounced Jesus

 

[Goatee]

@dzheremi did a good job with some of the list
Penance 157? but in the Old Testament we see the people of Nineveh doing penance
or in the Gospels we hear Jesus say that some demons can only be cast out with fasting and prayer
also "Feast of Corpus Christi 1264" yes, liturgical feasts have changed over time
it is a celebration, like Mothers Day was invented too..... and the 4th of July
that does not mean they are bad things....

Transubstantiation and Papal Infallibility are both way older then the dates you give
the dates just show when particular wording started to be used, the new way of describing something that was believed waaaay before the dates listed

praying to saints was way before 715, we can find inscriptions on catacomb walls, people asking the martyrs to pray for them

this list is horrible, other people have discredited it



so Jesus died on a tree just to allow 1500 years of wrong beliefs?
wow that is a weak Jesus, a God who can not even protect His own Church?

I believe in a powerful Jesus, one who does not allow stuff like that to happen for over 1,000 years


an opinion is like "I think this ice cream is too chocolaty"
that is not the kind of thing we are talking about, we are talking about beliefs
opinions are not right or wrong
beliefs are either right or wrong


who do you mean by "them"?
because the Reformation is full of different groups who preached contradictory beliefs
not really acting in the spirit of unity or brotherly love, you know since the Church of England would burn Catholics and Lutherans at the stake and Luther rejected Zwingli



well then that would mean we were wrong
I just have no reason to believe this is the case
it is just a hypothetical at this point, why should I give it serious consideration?
it is like saying "what if we have mean thoughts because alien ghosts are beaming them into our brains?"
like yeah we can ask that question, but we have no reason to think that is the reality of the situation


where does Paul say that Bishops should marry?
Paul says that it is better to remain unmarried, like him
if he thinks all Bishops should be married, then he is undermining his own authority

rather Paul says the Bishop should be "husband of one wife"
that is not opposed to unmarried
that is opposed to two wives

The list is not my doing. It is something i found.

Jesus gave us free will. Maybe people did choose the wrong road and then in later years the truth came out! Helped by the Holy Spirit! Why not? The Catholic Church as it is now may indeed 'not' be how Jesus wants it and it will all get sorted out eventually!

That list has many things that dont add up. Ok, the dates might be out but not by much!

Bishops were allowed to be married so why did the church then say no a few hundred years later?

Mary was not even mentioned the way she is now in the Bible or for many many years after the Apostles died!

As for burning at the stake, didn't the Catholics do a lot of that?!

I am open to a different view. I 'can' see us being wrong on many points. The Catholic church has 'invented' quite a few un Biblical things over the centuries. As a Catholic you are bound to disagree and say no, the Catholic faith is the true faith! I am a Catholic too but truly seeking the truth! Things dont add up for me that is why i am asking these things.

 

[Goatee]

maybe
maybe not

how do you know if it is from God or not?

did you read my quote from St. Ignatius of Antioch?
I do hope that helped you
he had no worldly power, he learned the Gospel from St. John himself, and he died because he would not reject Christ
this is the man we should be learning from
he could have saved himself at any time if he would just have renounced Jesus

You are right. I do not know why or where i am getting these doubts / thoughts. But i do feel a strong urge to ask God about these things, of which i am doing.

Plus, St Ignatius talked a lot about following the Bishop, as he himself was one. What if a Bishop is wrong though in doctrine or beliefs etc? What if, the church that St Ignatius left behind when he got martyred is not the church that stands today?

He wrote:

Since therefore I have, in the persons before mentioned, beheld the whole multitude of you in faith and love, I exhort you to study to do all things with a divine harmony, while your bishop presides in the place of God,

Nobody can preside in the Place of God though, now can they?

 

[rockytopva]

If my interpretation of the bible is correct Peter had little to do with the Gentile church...

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the circumcision, Peter.
Smyrna - Gentile Persecuted Church - Beginning with the Apostle to the uncircumcision, Paul.
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing?

7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles)
9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.
11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. - Galatians 2

If you read the above passage Peter and the original apostles basically handed the church of the gentiles to Paul. And then Paul withstood Peter at Antioch to his face. Now... If Paul withstands Peter... Who is mightier... Peter or Paul?

 

[rockytopva]

Let me insert here that the spirit of Jezebel, to control and to dominate, was a spirit that was in the period of time. This spirit was also in some protestant denominations who were just as ruthless with control and domination. A terrible spirit by the way, which would torment and martyr fellow Christians all in the name of a doctrine.

 

[Erose]

Why didn't the Apostles mention Mary and to pray to her etc etc like we do now?

Didn't Paul say that Bishops should be married?

One they did, read Luke, read John. Concerning praying (spiritual communication) to her, it is highly likely that she was alive during much of the writing of the NT. When the Holy Spirit descended upon her and the rest of the Church on the day of Pentecost, she would have been what 45-48 years old?

On the bishops, he did not imply that bishops SHOULD be married, but rather is they are it should only be to one wife. If bishops SHOULD be married, then I guess Paul and St. John at least couldn't have been bishops, and thus not Apostles.

 

[rockytopva]

What the bible says...

A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; - 1 Timothy 3:2
Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. - 1 Timothy 3:12


5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; - Titus 1:5-7

I think it a good idea to leave the leaders of the church the option to marry one wife.