SALVATION: Old Testament vs New Testament

[EmSw]

Not the same as under the new covenant.
The prophecy of Jeremiah in ch 31 of hus book states:

The time is coming( it is not there yet) when i will make a NEW covenant........
And what is the core of this new covenant?

Verse33

I will write my laws in their minds
And place them on their hearts.

You may reject Paul, but do you accept Jeremiah as a prophet of God?

Yes I do accept Jeremiah as a prophet. Notice who is speaking in Jeremiah. It is not Jeremiah; it is God Himself. Will Jeremiah make a new covenant?

Jeremiah 31
31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.
33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

This covenant is between God and the houses of Israel and Judah. It is not according to the covenant when they were led out of Egypt. Ever wonder what that means? That covenant was written upon stone, the new covenant upon hearts.

The contents of the covenant haven't changed, just the administration of it. If the 'old' covenant said to love God with all your heart, the 'new' covenant says the same thing. If the 'old' covenant said it will be for righteousness if one keeps the law, then the 'new' covenant is the same, with the difference being how the 'new' covenant is given to man, that is, written upon his heart.

If a person loves God with all his heart, then that law is written upon his heart.

Psalm 119:34
Give me understanding, and I shall keep Your law; indeed, I shall observe it with my whole heart.

Proverbs 3:1
My son, do not forget my law, but let your heart keep my commands;

A person does not forget, but keeps the law, when it is written upon his heart. The law written upon stone was broken by the children of Israel, for it was not within their hearts.

 

[EmSw]

Does it say that it made the first covenant obsolete? Do you know what the Old Covenant was? What was it?

The law is another question, but you quoted verses about the Old Covenant

A covenant is an agreement, a contract between two individuals. Both have obligations to keep within a covenant. God will always keep His part, but man has shown to fail time after time.

Within God's covenant is His law. Our part is to keep and obey it; His part is to bestow life, blessings, and peace to those who keep His law or commandments. God will never go into a covenant without man's consent. Noah, Abraham, Isaac did not have to accept the covenant God presented to them. The children of Israel consented to obey all that God commanded in His covenant to them. In return, God promised them many, many blessings if they kept His commandments.

 

[Truthfrees]

MOD HAT

Please do not say anything derogatory about Paul, or each other.

Please discuss the OP topic and not each other.

Posts are deleted or edited for these reasons.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Your covenant with death will be annulled
Your agreement with the grave will not stand
Isiah 28:18

So what specifically made the old covenant a covenant of death?

Now if the ministry that brought death , which was engraved in letters on stone....
2cor3:7

The only law written on stone was the Ten Commandments

You see, the legalistic law was not a covenant of death, for it was possible to faultlessly obey that law( phil3:6)

Therefore Jesus would not have needed to die for sins concerning the legalistic law. For it was possible to faultlessly obey that part of the law.

So when the term
Covenant of death is used, it concerns the moral law/ten commandments.

<staff edit>

 

[EmSw]

<staff edit>

The difference between the covenants is how they are administered. The first was administered by writing of tablets of stone. Each man had to have access to, or have someone to read to him the writing on stone. The children of Israel were told to pass down to their children the events of the exodus and the commandments of God. In time, men forgot their past and failed to read the law. This got them into serious sin, rebellion, and backsliding from God.

The new covenant is administered by writing upon the heart of man. Man no longer needed to seek to read His commandments, for they are with man at all times. No one needs to teach his neighbor, for all men, from the least to the greatest will know God and His law. Did Paul not say the Gentiles show the work of the law written in their hearts?

Righteousness is required in both covenants. As I gave you what John wrote, it is a man who practices righteousness who is righteous, and born of God. Is John's admonition to righteousness not a law to you? Perhaps you think John was just suggesting this as an option for man. Remember what John wrote -

1 John 1
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life—
2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us—
3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.

John saw, looked upon, and handled the Word of life which was manifested to him. And what John saw and heard, he is declaring to us.

As far as Jesus' suffering and death, it was man's disregard to His commandments and righteousness and man's utter sinfulness, because of which, He had to defeat the power hell had over man through temptations. He did this through His obedience and keeping the commandments.

In your estimation, does God change? Does He save man one way, then change His mind and save man another way?

 

[EmSw]

<staff edit>

It is by practicing righteousness, that a man is righteous and is born of God.

What percentage of obedience is acceptable to you? Do you feel 10% obedience is your obligation to God? Do you feel you do not need to give God everything? Do you feel you can live 90% to yourself and 10% to God? You must decide how much you want to abide in Him and live for him.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Lwts look at what the Ten Commandments truly entails concerning obedience to them:

1) you must have no other gods before the one true God.
What does that entail? Nothing in your life must come before God, or you must never have a god that comes before the father ever
2 no idols. Nothing in your life must be your idol that you serve, only God. Nothing must deflect from God being worshipped alone for he I a jealous God. An idol could be many things. You can make an idol out of a tv set, sport, to name but two. Nothing must deflect from God alone being worshipped.
Dont take the Lords name in vain. I went to church denomination once to please a friend. The hallmark of the church was:
You MUST obey the ten commandments. Yet people in the church were openly taking the lords name in vain, and laughing when they did so, oblivious to the fact they were breaking one of the ten commandments.
Honour your parents.
You wouldn't be honouring them if you ever in your heart did not want to do what they asked would you, nor if you ever got upset with them about anything
Dont murder was elaborated on by Christ. Dont get angry with you brother, ever.
Don't commit adultery, with Christs elaboration means do not even look at a woman with lust in your eye.
Do not steal entails never have even a fleeting thought in your head of wanting to steal anything
Dont give false testimony against your neighbour. On this website that would include not inferring people have stated, or believe what they have not stated they believe.
Do not covet, means do not desire/ lust anything that is not yours to desire. Therefore you can desire your husband or wife but never, even fleetingly anyone else

 

[EmSw]

Your covenant with death will be annulled
Your agreement with the grave will not stand
Isiah 28:18

So what specifically made the old covenant a covenant of death?

The answer lies within God's word.

Ezekiel 18
10 “If he begets a son who is a robber or a shedder of blood, who does any of these things
11 And does none of those duties, but has eaten on the mountains or defiled his neighbor’s wife;
12 If he has oppressed the poor and needy, robbed by violence, not restored the pledge, lifted his eyes to the idols, or committed abomination;
13 If he has exacted usury or taken increase—shall he then live? He shall not live! If he has done any of these abominations, he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him.

21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live.

<staff edit>

Now if the ministry that brought death , which was engraved in letters on stone....
2cor3:7

The only law written on stone was the Ten Commandments

The Ten Commandments do not bring death, but disobedience to them does. Disobedience is soley dependent upon man, not the Ten Commandments. Obedience brings life.

You see, the legalistic law was not a covenant of death, for it was possible to faultlessly obey that law( phil3:6)

Therefore Jesus would not have needed to die for sins concerning the legalistic law. For it was possible to faultlessly obey that part of the law.

So when the term
Covenant of death is used, it concerns the moral law/ten commandments.

God never called His covenant a covenant of death. God is LIFE, and only life proceeds from Him. If God said to commit murder, commit adultery, lie, and steal, His covenant would be a covenant of death.

<staff edit>

 

[Truthfrees]

MOD HAT

Do not discuss each other.

If you do not stick to the topic of this thread this thread will be permanently closed.

 

[Arsenios]

Scripture please that states when the holy spirit comes upon you as he did the disciples at Pentecost it is only a visitation and not the seal/ filling of the spirit until you have been baptised I water
I wondered what youd come up with to explain away the obvious.
However, you believe Ananias baptised Paul into Christ when he laid hands on him.
Therefore, you must believe Paul was baptised into Christ BEFORE he was baptised in water.

The Holy Spirit of Pentecost was the reception of the Holy Spirit in Power...
They were already Sealed upon Baptism into Christ...
The SEAL of the Holy Spirit upon arising from the Waters of Regeneration is itself not normally perceptible to the person in whom He is Sealed... But the FILLING of the Holy Spirit which FOLLOWS the Seal is VERY perceptible... It is given with the laying on of hands...

I am not making anything up - I may misunderstand, and am easily corrected by an Orthodox Christian with a better understanding - But I am simply speaking from the phronema of the Body of Christ as it has been handed from generation to generation in the Church at Antioch... That Seal of the Holy Spirit given after Baptism will stay in a person almost regardless of the severity of his sins later... It is the Essence of the New Creation that we become when we are birthed into Christ... It is this which gives us the power to Follow Christ in obedience to His Commandments... To take up our own cross...

Visitation of the Holy Spirit comes and goes, and is acquired in the praxis of Christian virtues... It departs with the doing of sin, and returns with confession and repentance... The Seal is not like that... It is the permanent feature of the New You birthed into Christ in the Spirit filled Waters of Regeneration when Christ Baptizes you into Himself through the hands of His Servants...

Arsenios

 

[stuart lawrence]

The Holy Spirit of Pentecost was the reception of the Holy Spirit in Power...
They were already Sealed upon Baptism into Christ...
The SEAL of the Holy Spirit upon arising from the Waters of Regeneration is itself not normally perceptible to the person in whom He is Sealed... But the FILLING of the Holy Spirit which FOLLOWS the Seal is VERY perceptible... It is given with the laying on of hands...

I am not making anything up - I may misunderstand, and am easily corrected by an Orthodox Christian with a better understanding - But I am simply speaking from the phronema of the Body of Christ as it has been handed from generation to generation in the Church at Antioch... That Seal of the Holy Spirit given after Baptism will stay in a person almost regardless of the severity of his sins later... It is the Essence of the New Creation that we become when we are birthed into Christ... It is this which gives us the power to Follow Christ in obedience to His Commandments... To take up our own cross...

Visitation of the Holy Spirit comes and goes, and is acquired in the praxis of Christian virtues... It departs with the doing of sin, and returns with confession and repentance... The Seal is not like that... It is the permanent feature of the New You birthed into Christ in the Spirit filled Waters of Regeneration when Christ Baptizes you into Himself through the hands of His Servants...

Arsenios

But you have no scriptural support for the above.
The bible states the holy spirit came on Cornelius and his household JUST AS he did the disciples at Pentecost PRIOR to them being baptised in water.
Paul also was filled with the spirit PRIOR to being baptised in water
That is all scripture says concerning this.

 

[Arsenios]

The New Law of God is to live without sin...
All that is not from God is sin...
So we are to live God-riveted lives, yes?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

But you have no scriptural support for the above.
The bible states the holy spirit came on Cornelius and his household JUST AS he did the disciples at Pentecost PRIOR to them being baptised in water.
Paul also was filled with the spirit PRIOR to being baptised in water
That is all scripture says concerning this.

Are you not presuming that the SEAL of the Holy Spirit is the SAME as the DESCENT of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost? Where is there Biblical support for this idea? The Tongues were given, but that is clearly not the Seal, because they are not given now, but the Seal IS...

Arsenios

 

[stuart lawrence]

The Holy Spirit of Pentecost was the reception of the Holy Spirit in Power...
They were already Sealed upon Baptism into Christ...
The SEAL of the Holy Spirit upon arising from the Waters of Regeneration is itself not normally perceptible to the person in whom He is Sealed... But the FILLING of the Holy Spirit which FOLLOWS the Seal is VERY perceptible... It is given with the laying on of hands...

I am not making anything up - I may misunderstand, and am easily corrected by an Orthodox Christian with a better understanding - But I am simply speaking from the phronema of the Body of Christ as it has been handed from generation to generation in the Church at Antioch... That Seal of the Holy Spirit given after Baptism will stay in a person almost regardless of the severity of his sins later... It is the Essence of the New Creation that we become when we are birthed into Christ... It is this which gives us the power to Follow Christ in obedience to His Commandments... To take up our own cross...

Visitation of the Holy Spirit comes and goes, and is acquired in the praxis of Christian virtues... It departs with the doing of sin, and returns with confession and repentance... The Seal is not like that... It is the permanent feature of the New You birthed into Christ in the Spirit filled Waters of Regeneration when Christ Baptizes you into Himself through the hands of His Servants...

Arsenios

Visitations of the spirit were entirely possible under the old covenant, but not the new. All the teaching in regard to the new covenant is the holy spirit comes to reside in the believer, not that he comes and goes.
And scripture plainly tells us on TWO occassions the spirit came to those who had not been baptised in water.
I respectfully submit, you cannot put God in a box and tell him he must follow a rigid/ set formulae. He doesn't have to, he is the omnipotent God, he can act and do as he wills

 

[stuart lawrence]

Are you not presuming that the SEAL of the Holy Spirit is the SAME as the DESCENT of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost? Where is there Biblical support for this idea? The Tongues were given, but that is clearly not the Seal, because they are not given now, but the Seal IS...

Arsenios

I am presuming, as nothing I scripture states otherwise, that under the new covenant, when the holy spirit comes to you, enters your life, he does not do so only as a visitation until certain criteria are met.
Neither Jesus or any of the apostles stated that.
Peter states Gods proof that he has accepted people is the holy spirit coming upon them.
And the spirit plainly came upon many who had not yet been baptised in water

 

[stuart lawrence]

The proof you are saved I the holy spirit resides in you. For the spirit does not reside in the unsaved.
But it I entirely possible to be baptised in water and remain in an unsaved state. For you can be baptised in water without in your heart wanting Jesus to be Lord of your life
IE
You may go to church because your parents make you go. Your friends get baptised in water, you don't want to be the odd one out, but part of the crowd.
You make a profession for Christ on that basis and get baptised in water.
Is such a person then in a saved state?

 

[Arsenios]

The proof you are saved is the holy spirit resides in you.

Barlaam's Donkey was saved??

That was JUST a joke!!

The proof is in the Fruit... Peace and Joy...

For the spirit does not reside in the unsaved.

If we are hidden in Christ, you cannot tell who is and who is not saved...

You might just as well tell the pilot on the take-off roll how much runway he has behind him!

But it I entirely possible to be baptised in water and remain in an unsaved state.

Discerning "STATES" of Salvation is not for us to do to determine their Salvation STATUS...

For you can be baptised in water without in your heart wanting Jesus to be Lord of your life

Preaching to the choir...

IE
You may go to church because your parents make you go. Your friends get baptised in water, you don't want to be the odd one out, but part of the crowd.
You make a profession for Christ on that basis and get baptised in water.
Is such a person then in a saved state?

Never!

Arsenios

 

[stuart lawrence]

Barlaam's Donkey was saved??

That was JUST a joke!!

The proof is in the Fruit... Peace and Joy...



If we are hidden in Christ, you cannot tell who is and who is not saved...

You might just as well tell the pilot on the take-off roll how much runway he has behind him!



Discerning "STATES" of Salvation is not for us to do to determine their Salvation STATUS...



Preaching to the choir...



Never!

Arsenios

You have not rebutted my beliefs that the Holy Spirit DOES NOT reside in the unsaved, and appear to agree a person can be baptised in water but remain in an unsaved state.
Could it be, is it possible that we have agreement on ONE issue?????

Do we actually agree therefore the definition of a Christian is someone in whom the Holy Spirit resides.

Peter said the proof God had accepted people was their receiving the holy spirit.
And Paul said if we fo not have the spirit of Christ we cannot belong to Christ.
Are you joining with me, Paul and Peter on this issue?

Are we ALL as one, singing from the same hymn sheet so to speak?
Surely not!

 

[stuart lawrence]

The answer lies within God's word.

Ezekiel 18
10 “If he begets a son who is a robber or a shedder of blood, who does any of these things
11 And does none of those duties, but has eaten on the mountains or defiled his neighbor’s wife;
12 If he has oppressed the poor and needy, robbed by violence, not restored the pledge, lifted his eyes to the idols, or committed abomination;
13 If he has exacted usury or taken increase—shall he then live? He shall not live! If he has done any of these abominations, he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him.

21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live.

<staff edit>



The Ten Commandments do not bring death, but disobedience to them does. Disobedience is soley dependent upon man, not the Ten Commandments. Obedience brings life.



God never called His covenant a covenant of death. God is LIFE, and only life proceeds from Him. If God said to commit murder, commit adultery, lie, and steal, His covenant would be a covenant of death.

<staff edit>

God never called his covenant a covenant of death?

You're covenant with death will be annulled
Your agreement with the grave will not stand.
Isaiah 28:18

Who is speaking in the above?

 

[EmSw]

God never called his covenant a covenant of death?

You're covenant with death will be annulled
Your agreement with the grave will not stand.
Isaiah 28:18

Who is speaking in the above?

Let's read it in context, shall we?

Isaiah 28
14 Therefore hear the word of the Lord, you scornful men, who rule this people who are in Jerusalem,
15 Because you have said, “We have made a covenant with death, and with Sheol we are in agreement. When the overflowing scourge passes through, it will not come to us, for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood we have hidden ourselves.”
16 Therefore thus says the Lord God: “Behold, I lay in Zion a stone for a foundation, a tried stone, a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation; whoever believes will not act hastily.
17 Also I will make justice the measuring line, and righteousness the plummet; the hail will sweep away the refuge of lies,
And the waters will overflow the hiding place.
18 Your covenant with death will be annulled, and your agreement with Sheol will not stand;

This is not a covenant with God! Scornful men made this covenant with death and Sheol. These men are liars who have hidden themselves from the overflowing scourge when it passes through.

Notice God says YOUR COVENANT WITH DEATH will be annulled, YOUR agreement WITH Sheol will not stand. This DOES NOT SAY a covenant OF death, and God does not say MY covenant!

If you say the old covenant is a covenant of death, then you have to say it is an agreement with Sheol also.

Do you know what a covenant is and its conditions and requirements?