Why do you have to believe in the trinity to be saved?

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ImAllLikeOkWaitWat

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There is no verse in the bible that says believe in the trinity and ye shall be saved. Or anything even close.

The only verse in the bible that flat out tells you what you need to do to be saved is Romans 10:9. So explain to me an accused non christian who doesn't believe in the trinity but believes in romans 10:9 why im going to hell. Even though I believe what the bible says to believe to be saved.
 

redleghunter

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There is no verse in the bible that says believe in the trinity and ye shall be saved. Or anything even close.

The only verse in the bible that flat out tells you what you need to do to be saved is Romans 10:9. So explain to me an accused non christian who doesn't believe in the trinity but believes in romans 10:9 why im going to hell. Even though I believe what the bible says to believe to be saved.

You are confusing the gospel message with the Nature of the sacrifice for our sins---Jesus Christ


See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.


Colossians 2:8‭-‬15 NASB
http://bible.com/100/col.2.8-15.NASB
 
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ImAllLikeOkWaitWat

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You are confusing the gospel message with the Nature of the sacrifice for our sins---Jesus Christ


See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.


Colossians 2:8‭-‬15 NASB
http://bible.com/100/col.2.8-15.NASB

This verse is not saying that Jesus was God, but rather the fullness of what God was in Christ—God’s character, power, and glory, resided in Christ, and now, as per verse 10, it resides in us, and our challenge is to allow it to show forth from our flesh bodies and walk like Christ walked.


So what exactly are you trying to say? that verse proves i should believe in the trinity for salvation or that jesus is God? I don't think thats the case at all.
 
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redleghunter

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This verse is not saying that Jesus was God, but rather the fullness of what God was in Christ—

Show me your exegesis for this conclusion. The very Greek word used for deity is not used anywhere else when referring to people filled with the Holy Spirit.

Who does the Holy Spirit testify of?

Answer, Jesus Christ. See John 15:26
 
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ImAllLikeOkWaitWat

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Show me your exegesis for this conclusion. The very Greek word used for deity is not used anywhere else when referring to people filled with the Holy Spirit.

Who does the Holy Spirit testify of?

Answer, Jesus Christ. See John 15:26

The word “Deity” or “Godhead” is a translation of the Greek word theotes.In A Greek English Lexicon, by Liddell and Scott, the classic lexicon of the ancient Greek language, it is translated as “divinity, divine nature.”In making their case, Liddell and Scott cite Greek authors Plutarch and Lucian, and also reference Heliodorus and Oribasius using the phrase dia theoteta = “for religious reasons.” The Greek word occurs only once in the Bible, so to try to build a case for it meaning “God” or “Godhead” (which is an unclear term in itself) is very suspect indeed. Standard rules for interpreting Scripture would dictate that the way Paul used theotes in Colossians would be the same way the Colossians were used to hearing it in their culture. There is no reason to believe that Paul wrote to the Colossians expecting them to “redefine” the vocabulary they were using. Christ was filled with holy spirit “without measure,” and God gave him authority on earth to heal, cast out demons, forgive sins, etc. Thus, it makes perfect sense that Scripture would say that Christ had the fullness of the “divine nature” dwelling in him. In fact, the same thing is said about every Christian (2 Pet. 1:4).-http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/verses/colossians-2-9


You are going to have to do better than col 2:9.
 
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redleghunter

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The word “Deity” or “Godhead” is a translation of the Greek word theotes.In A Greek English Lexicon, by Liddell and Scott, the classic lexicon of the ancient Greek language, it is translated as “divinity, divine nature.”In making their case, Liddell and Scott cite Greek authors Plutarch and Lucian, and also reference Heliodorus and Oribasius using the phrase dia theoteta = “for religious reasons.” The Greek word occurs only once in the Bible, so to try to build a case for it meaning “God” or “Godhead” (which is an unclear term in itself) is very suspect indeed. Standard rules for interpreting Scripture would dictate that the way Paul used theotes in Colossians would be the same way the Colossians were used to hearing it in their culture. There is no reason to believe that Paul wrote to the Colossians expecting them to “redefine” the vocabulary they were using. Christ was filled with holy spirit “without measure,” and God gave him authority on earth to heal, cast out demons, forgive sins, etc. Thus, it makes perfect sense that Scripture would say that Christ had the fullness of the “divine nature” dwelling in him. In fact, the same thing is said about every Christian (2 Pet. 1:4).-http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/verses/colossians-2-9


You are going to have to do better than col 2:9.

Please show me a lexicon which supports your "Christ was filled with holy spirit without measure."

Not there in the text. That may be your opinion but no serious theologian supports such.
 
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ImAllLikeOkWaitWat

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Please show me a lexicon which supports your "Christ was filled with holy spirit without measure."

Not there in the text. That may be your opinion but no serious theologian supports such.

Well how else was he able to do the miracles etc he did? Your response i'm afraid might be he used his god ability then hid it from himself when he states that only the father knows his second coming. If that makes sense to you which it doesnt to me then your faith in tradition may be stronger than my faith in tradition.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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How are we saved? By the Atonement done by Jesus Christ on the Cross at Calvary.

How does Atonement function? Either through Moral Influence, Penal Substitution, Satisfaction, Scapegoat etc. Maybe all of them can be applied. They all require a Trinity to hold together philosophically though.
For if Jesus is not of the same essence as the Father, but is a subsidiary creation, this transforms the Atonement drastically. It is no longer an act of Love by God then, but a sadistic deity torturing his own 'son' for some goal. Even if this goal was for the greater good, it would be evil to exact vengeance on a sinless being for the sake of the rest, instead of having God take that burden upon himself. Even if this hypothetical subsidiary Jesus agreed, it impunes the character of the Father who would require it.

This is why the Trinity is required. However, I don't think that you would be condemned necessarily for as long as you follow Jesus, He will work on you and lead you to the Truth. Its more important to have a living relationship with Christ than to quibble about theology.
 
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AGTG

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You don't have to believe in the trinity to be saved, but if you don't believe in the trinity it's a pretty clear sign you are in deep deception, which may indicate your fundamental doctrine is warped and you're not actually in right standing with God.
 
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redleghunter

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Well how else was he able to do the miracles etc he did? Your response i'm afraid might be he used his god ability then hid it from himself when he states that only the father knows his second coming. If that makes sense to you which it doesnt to me then your faith in tradition may be stronger than my faith in tradition.

Bolded above is blasphemous even for this forum.

Perhaps a brief instruction on Trinitarian doctrine might help ease your concerns. At our disposal is a seminary graduate in @Commander Xenophon who can properly present you the very basics.

It seems you have some misconceptions of the Trinity doctrine which may be vexing you a bit.
 
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Commander Xenophon

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Well how else was he able to do the miracles etc he did? Your response i'm afraid might be he used his god ability then hid it from himself when he states that only the father knows his second coming. If that makes sense to you which it doesnt to me then your faith in tradition may be stronger than my faith in tradition.

Bolded above is blasphemous even for this forum.

Perhaps a brief instruction on Trinitarian doctrine might help ease your concerns. At our disposal is a seminary graduate in @Commander Xenophon who can properly present you the very basics.

It seems you have some misconceptions of the Trinity doctrine which may be vexing you a bit.

Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Incarnate Logos, who of the undivided, coequal and coeternal Trinity is one prosopon (person/face/personality, the word literally means "mask" but was translated into Latin as "person" because in the Greco-Roman culture personhood was intimately linked to the idea of face; slaves had no face; they were faceless in that it was beneath a freeman to look upon their countenance, and a judge in a Roman court wouod not, because they were in a state which I believe was called habeas non personam), is fully human and fully divine. His human nature is hypostatically united to His divine nature; His ability to perform miracles is a result of this hypostatic union between His eternal divinity and His assumed humanity.

Now, here is where it gets interesting, and why we must believe in the Trinity; Jesus glorified the Human race by making our humanity a temple for His Godhood. So that His divinity did not part from His humanity from the moment of His conception in the womb until His ascent into Heaven. There is a theological concept of communicatio idiomatum which basically states that those attributes one could attribute to his divinity, by virtue of the hypostatic union, one could attribute to His humanity. This stands in refutation of Nestorianism.

So the Nestorian Mar Narsai wrote a poem alomg the lines of, "As man, Jesus sweat, bled, and breathed, as God he worked miracles." St. Ambrose of Milan wrote something similiar but with a crucial difference. Basically, the truth is that, as a man, having assumed human form, God the Son was crucified, died, entombed and resurrected.

When we believe in Him, we receive His saving grace, and this grace strengthens us and makes us more like him, a process of Theosis. Salvation is a process of becoming more like Jesus Christ, who is the New Adam; humanity, untarnished from the stain of original sin, and glorified through God becoming incarnate of it. God created Adam in His image, and He recreates us in His image, purifying us from the damages of sin, so at the general resurrection we may be saved.

So when we repent and believe in God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, a union of perfect love, the Holy Spirit descends upon us as it did upon our Lord in Baptism; we become annointed; we are united with the Church, the New Israel, a royal priesthood, we return from sin like the prodigal son to become heirs accprding to the promise, and we are granted strength by which, through continued repentence on our part, we can become more and more like Jesus Christ, and this ongoing repentence and transformation in Orthodoxy we call Theosis. The Methodists call it entire sanctification. The Calvinists call it regeneration (I think).

It was through such theosis that the Apostles and saints, past and present, were and are able to perform miracles, ranging from curing the sick to even in some cases raising the dead. One should never seek to be able to perform miracles or desore spiritual power; if one has these gifts one should follow the example of our Lord in the Gospel of St. Mark and hide them.

However, the abiloty to work miracles is a fruit of the process of theosis; those who are blessed by God and granted by him the grace to cast our demons, cure the sick and work other miracles for the glory of His name, are those who have repented and thus through the indwellling of the Holy Spirit, acquired the strength to pick up their cross and follow Christ, striving to become perfect even as our Father in Heaven is perfect. We do not teach sinless perfectionism, nor pelagianism;mdepending on whether you ask a Calvinist or an Arminian (like Methodists, Roman Catholics and Orthodox), this regeneration is either entirely the work of God or the result of a synergy or cooperation between God and man, prompted and sustained by God's grace, which inspires us to faith.

So, because Christ rose from the dead, if we believe on Him we will not perish, but enjoy life everlasting. And because he worked miracles, the Apostles and other saints right up in the present can also work miracles, in His name, through their faith in him and the grace conveyed by the Holy Spirit, and the repentance that follows as we are convicted of sin and strive to follow our Lord, because this ability flows from the glorification of fallen humanity accomplished by our Lord on the Cross, and if we follow our Lord, as did the Apostles, it follows that we, like Him, will have the special ability to help those in distress for the glory of God.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Well how else was he able to do the miracles etc he did?

He was God.

Your response i'm afraid might be he used his god ability then hid it from himself when he states that only the father knows his second coming.

Therein is the mystery and scandal of the Incarnation.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Hoghead1

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He was God.



Therein is the mystery and scandal of the Incarnation.

-CryptoLutheran
The Incarnation is a big scandal if you hold with the traditional or classical Christian model of God as void of body, parts, passions, compassion, wholly immutable. As such God and the material world are like oil and water, they don't mix. This makes it hard to see how God is present. However, that in now not the only model for God available for Christians.
 
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Hoghead1

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Bolded above is blasphemous even for this forum.

Perhaps a brief instruction on Trinitarian doctrine might help ease your concerns. At our disposal is a seminary graduate in @Commander Xenophon who can properly present you the very basics.

It seems you have some misconceptions of the Trinity doctrine which may be vexing you a bit.

He raised a legit point and therefore is not blasphemous at all.
 
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ViaCrucis

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There is no verse in the bible that says believe in the trinity and ye shall be saved. Or anything even close.

That's correct. And that's fortunate considering how many Christians I've met who, even if they use the word "Trinity" don't seem to have a clue what Trinitarian theology is or looks like.

The only verse in the bible that flat out tells you what you need to do to be saved is Romans 10:9.

That's not true. Scripture speaks of salvation in many places and describes it in many ways. Romans 10:9 is hardly the only place in Scripture where salvation is "explained".

So explain to me an accused non christian who doesn't believe in the trinity but believes in romans 10:9 why im going to hell. Even though I believe what the bible says to believe to be saved.

I don't know that most Christians would say you're going to hell because you don't believe in the Trinity. Rejecting the Trinity certainly puts you on the outside of the Christian Church as it is the faith of the Church which confesses the Holy Trinity. But that doesn't necessarily mean you aren't or can't be saved, or that you're going to hell. Nobody, except God, is capable of judging the ultimate fate of any one.

However since you deny the Trinity that places you outside of the faith of the Christian Church, and outside of the Church you aren't hearing the regular and faithful preaching of the Gospel or receiving the Sacraments; that won't condemn you to hell or any such thing, but it certainly removes you from the place where God has promised to be present and active in saving us.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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The Incarnation is a big scandal if you hold with the traditional or classical Christian model of God as void of body, parts, passions, compassion, wholly immutable. As such God and the material world are like oil and water, they don't mix. This makes it hard to see how God is present. However, that in now not the only model for God available for Christians.

Its actually not, if you take the time to actually read the New Testament and the Early Church fathers. Jesus Christ, the incorruptible, impassable, immutable Son of God, put on corruptibility, passability and mutabiloty; he became Man so we could become god.

Not God according to essence or ontology, but "ye are gods" in cooperation with God's uncreated divine energies. Jesus Christ does not only save us but deifies us; just as He was immortal and put on mortality, we, through faith in Him, are mortals who put on immortality. We become sons of God by adoption; through grace what our Lord is by nature.

Once a truth-seeking Christian comes to this realization, which is as easy as reading the New Testament and the writings of St. Athanasius, who compiled it, the experience is literally in and of itself salvific; it is an infinite comfort and blessing. I think John Wesley, who taught Theosis, had this realization in the Aldersgate experience where his heart was "strangely warmed" while listening to a Moravian reading Romans, which is vital to the Pauline epistle.

As far as I am concerned, Process Theology is incompatible with the canonical New Testament. And the definitive New Testament canon that we still use today was the work of St. Athanasius, who in his 39th Paschal Encyclical finally answered satisfactorily the question of which writings other than the four Gospels (which were already universally accepted) were apostolic, and which ones were not, like the Shepherd of Hermas.

Process Theology does work with Gnosticism however; early Gnostics were classical Theists, but their emanationism was a logical contradiction; they believed these emanations from the Monad occurred as a progressiom of events. This requires time, which requires change. The events that led from the Monad emanating various Aeons, one of whom, Sophia, accidentally created the evil demiurge who created this world, are a process, and the means by which the Aeons led by Christ seek to extract the trapped divine beings from the prison of matter are equally a Process. It is difficult to differentiate between the Pleroma and the Monad; everything one says about the Gnostic God seems to apply to the Pleroma, His proper creation, and likewise a similiar relationship exists between the evil or incompetent demiurge and the material creation he imprisoned us in, according to Gnosticism. So, Process theology definitely works, the main difference being the set of predicates about God are duplicated, so as to apply in equal measure to the beneficent Aeons of the Pleroma and the Monad or Father, and to the accidentally created, evil, false demiurge and his archons who rule the accidentally created material world, the prison of matter.

On that note, what books do you regard as canonical Scripture? Are you familiar with A New New Testament, which adds to the canonical 27 books another ten primarily Gnostic works, like the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Mary, and so on?
 
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Hoghead1

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Its actually not, if you take the time to actually read the New Testament and the Early Church fathers. Jesus Christ, the incorruptible, impassable, immutable Son of God, put on corruptibility, passability and mutabiloty; he became Man so we could become god.

Not God according to essence or ontology, but "ye are gods" in cooperation with God's uncreated divine energies. Jesus Christ does not only save us but deifies us; just as He was immortal and put on mortality, we, through faith in Him, are mortals who put on immortality. We become sons of God by adoption; through grace what our Lord is by nature.

Once a truth-seeking Christian comes to this realization, which is as easy as reading the New Testament and the writings of St. Athanasius, who compiled it, the experience is literally in and of itself salvific; it is an infinite comfort and blessing. I think John Wesley, who taught Theosis, had this realization in the Aldersgate experience where his heart was "strangely warmed" while listening to a Moravian reading Romans, which is vital to the Pauline epistle.

As far as I am concerned, Process Theology is incompatible with the canonical New Testament. And the definitive New Testament canon that we still use today was the work of St. Athanasius, who in his 39th Paschal Encyclical finally answered satisfactorily the question of which writings other than the four Gospels (which were already universally accepted) were apostolic, and which ones were not, like the Shepherd of Hermas.

Process Theology does work with Gnosticism however; early Gnostics were classical Theists, but their emanationism was a logical contradiction; they believed these emanations from the Monad occurred as a progressiom of events. This requires time, which requires change. The events that led from the Monad emanating various Aeons, one of whom, Sophia, accidentally created the evil demiurge who created this world, are a process, and the means by which the Aeons led by Christ seek to extract the trapped divine beings from the prison of matter are equally a Process. It is difficult to differentiate between the Pleroma and the Monad; everything one says about the Gnostic God seems to apply to the Pleroma, His proper creation, and likewise a similiar relationship exists between the evil or incompetent demiurge and the material creation he imprisoned us in, according to Gnosticism. So, Process theology definitely works, the main difference being the set of predicates about God are duplicated, so as to apply in equal measure to the beneficent Aeons of the Pleroma and the Monad or Father, and to the accidentally created, evil, false demiurge and his archons who rule the accidentally created material world, the prison of matter.

On that note, what books do you regard as canonical Scripture? Are you familiar with A New New Testament, which adds to the canonical 27 books another ten primarily Gnostic works, like the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Mary, and so on?

The church said that God was impassible and immutable, but the Bible definitely does not. As I said before, God is attributed deep emotion and also change, e.g., Hosea 11:8, Gen. 6:6. How about you take a more careful look at what the Bible claims about God? God is no Unmoved Mover in Scripture.

I don't know what you have been reading process, but I can assure you that you are way, way off base about it.
 
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There is no verse in the bible that says believe in the trinity and ye shall be saved. Or anything even close.

Of course there isn't.


The only verse in the bible that flat out tells you what you need to do to be saved is Romans 10:9. So explain to me an accused non christian who doesn't believe in the trinity but believes in romans 10:9 why im going to hell. Even though I believe what the bible says to believe to be saved.

Belief in Christ is what saves, not believing in or understanding the Trinity/the Godhead.
 
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Hoghead1

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You have to be saved to know the Triune God.

No, that is not true. The Bible implies a Trinity, but does not folly work it out. Hence, the early fathers looked to Hellenic metaphysics. The Trinitarian formulations are largely extra-biblical in nature and use terms completely foreign to Scripture such as "substance." The real reason why the Trinity is puzzling to many is frankly due to muddled thinking on the part of teh fathers.
 
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