Question to Protestants regarding certain Catholic beliefs

[farout]

Yeah, well, I was Protestant for 25 years and very dedicated. (I used to go to parishes at Mass and leave tracts under the windshield wipers).

Then I found out that your "facts" are nothing more than distortions, lies, denial of Christian history and writings, and with some folks (maybe not you personally) outright hatred.

The basic foundation of Protestant theology and soteriology is the idea of "forensic justification." There's only one little problem with it. That's not what Romans teaches in the Greek manuscripts. Even Strong's Concordance backs this up.
Protestant "theologians" played very fast and loose with the truth to push their agenda.

Just saying............

It sounds Like you must have been in a very liberal church. I can only state what Baptist believe. What you were involved lacked genuine Orthodox Christianity bey what you said. Salvation is not based on what you do, like passing out tracks. Christianity is a relationship with Christ, we are saved by Grace, not works.

I sincerely hope you do serious study in comparing the RCC and Protestantism, and look very carefully at what Scripture says. Scripture is always the highest position, not tradition, or what the pope says. Be wary friend.

 

[Rick Otto]

It is good to bless those worthy of blessing, Mary is asleep in death, humans blessing her now is futile.

Maybe. Whatever. We keep a healthy attitude.

 

[Light of the East]

It sounds Like you must have been in a very liberal church. I can only state what Baptist believe. What you were involved lacked genuine Orthodox Christianity bey what you said. Salvation is not based on what you do, like passing out tracks. Christianity is a relationship with Christ, we are saved by Grace, not works.

I sincerely hope you do serious study in comparing the RCC and Protestantism, and look very carefully at what Scripture says. Scripture is always the highest position, not tradition, or what the pope says. Be wary friend.

I was a Fundamentalist like you, not Liberal. Very Bob Jones Fundamentalist.

Did I even say that I was saved by the "works" of putting tracts on the cars? Good grief! Talk about an utter lack of comprehension.

I was Fundamentalist for 13 years and Calvinist for 12. Very anti-Catholic. I know exactly what Scripture says after 25 years of studying the Bible. And I did 2 years of intense study of Catholicism, trying to destroy it. Part of that included "looking carefully at scripture."

Scripture must be properly interpreted. This forum is proof of that.

 

[Light of the East]

So instead of relying on God's, infallible, Word people who say Mary is the Ark of the Covenant are rely on the very fallible word of some old humans.

The Ark of the Covenant held the Aaron's rod which bloomed, the manna, and the commandments.

Mary held within her the Rod of Jesse, which bloomed, the true bread of life, and the living Word.

When you learn how to properly study the Bible you will understand how to use metaphors and analogies, which are part of the scripture.

 

[Rick Otto]

...
When you learn how to properly study the Bible you will understand how to use metaphors and analogies, which are part of the scripture.

I understand "proper" plenty, thanks anyway.

 

[Light of the East]

So what christian denomination were the apostles in if I am so delusional? The closest thing would have is Messianic Jew. But what about the Gentiles at the time?

First of all, there were no "denominations" for the first 1500 years of the Christian faith. There was the Church - East and West. No Baptists, Methodists, Episcopalians, Fundamentalists, Pentecostals, or any of the other 40,000 denominations that exist today. Just one Church. If you were a Christian you were part of that Church - Orthodox in the East and Catholic in the West.

This Church actually started with Moses in the wilderness. It was with Moses that the qahal was set up, the congregation of God. The rules of worship were given, the priesthood was selected, a place of worship build, ordinances for sin defined, and a ritual of entry called circumcision given. This was the beginning of the congregation, or Church.

In Matthew 21: 33-46 we see Jesus speak about this Church, which in the parable He analogizes as a vineyard and identifies it later as the Kingdom of God. He also shows us that the Kingdom of God (aka vineyard or Church or congregation) is to be taken from the Jews and given to a "nation bearing fruits in due season." In other words, the Gentile/Jew Church headed up by the 12 Apostles.

I don't know where you got the idea of denominations in the first century, but you really should stop reading whatever it is and concentrate upon biblical definitions.

 

[Light of the East]

Yes..I agree. Please, anyone, cite verse in the bible which claims Mary to be the "new Ark of the covenant ".

The Ark of the Covenant held the Aaron's rod which bloomed, the manna, and the commandments.

Mary held within her the Rod of Jesse, which bloomed, the true bread of life, and the living Word.

 

[Light of the East]

Crickets. You see, when you actually spend more time reading the bible in its simplicity rather than wasting time making the bible say what you want, things become more clear. I am honestly not expecting a honest response from any catholic as to the explanation of the Luke reference located above.

Sent from my SM-N915V using Tapatalk

Actually, some of us have a life - you know, a job and responsibilities. Answering stupid questions is not one of them.

 

[Light of the East]

Crickets. You see, when you actually spend more time reading the bible in its simplicity rather than wasting time making the bible say what you want, things become more clear. I am honestly not expecting a honest response from any catholic as to the explanation of the Luke reference located above.

Sent from my SM-N915V using Tapatalk

You are reading it wrong. You are making it a condemnation of giving honor to Mary. What Jesus is saying is that instead of Mary being blessed just for being the Mother of God, She is to be blessed because no one has heard and obeyed the Word of God better than She. She heard the Word of God directly from an angel and said "Let it be done unto me according to thy word."

 

[keltoi]

The Ark of the Covenant held the Aaron's rod which bloomed, the manna, and the commandments.

Mary held within her the Rod of Jesse, which bloomed, the true bread of life, and the living Word.

When you learn how to properly study the Bible you will understand how to use metaphors and analogies, which are part of the scripture.

I know how to properly study the scripture thanks, when you use put downs like that it makes me wonder have you heard the phrase take the rod out of your own eye before you try to take the splinter out of your brothers.

 

[keltoi]

Actually, some of us have a life - you know, a job and responsibilities. Answering stupid questions is not one of them.

Sorry for being a thorn in your side. sheez get over yourself.

 

[keltoi]

You are reading it wrong. You are making it a condemnation of giving honor to Mary. What Jesus is saying is that instead of Mary being blessed just for being the Mother of God, She is to be blessed because no one has heard and obeyed the Word of God better than She. She heard the Word of God directly from an angel and said "Let it be done unto me according to thy word."

Nope she said "how can this be when I haven't been with a man?" Just like everyone else she questioned what was being said to her. It is about time you stopped skipping bits of the Bible and actually quoted the entire context.

 

[Standing Up]

That does not negate the references to Mary as the Ark of the Covenant. I know you wish they did.

I incorrectly assumed you were interested in earliest references as more authoritative, being closer to apostolic times, rather than later understandings from other men.

But yes, some folks came to interpret Mary as the Ark of the (new) Covenant, carrying the king,priest,prophet. This led them to new dogmas about Mary the Ark, such as ever-virgin, immaculate conception, and such. Could you explain why this association began?

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

I don't know where you got the idea of denominations in the first century, but you really should stop reading whatever it is and concentrate upon biblical definitions.

No denominations = non-denominational

catholic church = the collective individual christians and is not a denomination

Roman Catholic & Eastern Orthodox = two denominations

Sent from my SM-N915V using Tapatalk

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

When you learn how to properly study the Bible you will understand how to use metaphors and analogies, which are part of the scripture.

But you see, Catholics are not allowed to interept scripture. Only the Magisterium is allowed to do that. All a Catholic can do is hit the "I believe" button and accept whatever intereptation the Magisterium comes up with. This is not an attack against Catholics. It is a fact that Catholics are not allowed to determine for themselves what scripture is actually saying and it is rather rich that you are accusing others of not properly doing it.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

You are reading it wrong. You are making it a condemnation of giving honor to Mary. What Jesus is saying is that instead of Mary being blessed just for being the Mother of God, She is to be blessed because no one has heard and obeyed the Word of God better than She. She heard the Word of God directly from an angel and said "Let it be done unto me according to thy word."

Mary the mother of Jesus was described by God as “highly favored” (Luke 1:28). The phrase “highly favored” comes from a single Greek word, which essentially means “much grace.” Mary received God’s grace.

Grace is “unmerited favor,” meaning something we receive despite the fact that we do not deserve it. Mary needed grace from God just as the rest of us do. Mary herself understood this fact, as she declared in Luke 1:47, “. . . and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior. . .”

Mary recognized that she needed the Savior. The Bible never says that Mary was anyone but an ordinary human whom God chose to use in an extraordinary way. Yes, Mary was a righteous woman and favored (graced) by God (Luke 1:27-28). At the same time, Mary was a sinful human being who needed Jesus Christ as her Savior, just like everyone else (Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:23; 6:23; 1 John 1:8).

Mary did not have an “immaculate conception.” The Bible doesn’t suggest Mary’s birth was anything but a normal human birth. Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus (Luke 1:34-38), but the idea of the perpetual virginity of Mary is unbiblical. Matthew 1:25, speaking of Joseph, declares, “But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave Him the name Jesus.”

The word “until” clearly indicates that Joseph and Mary did have sexual union after Jesus was born. Joseph and Mary had several children together after Jesus was born. Jesus had four half-brothers: James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas (Matthew 13:55). Jesus also had half-sisters, although they are not named or numbered (Matthew 13:55-56). God blessed and graced Mary by giving her several children, which in that culture was the clearest indication of God’s blessing on a woman.

One time when Jesus was speaking, a woman in the crowd proclaimed, “Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed” (Luke 11:27). There was never a better opportunity for Jesus to declare that Mary was indeed worthy of praise and adoration. What was Jesus’ response? “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it” (Luke 11:28). To Jesus, obedience to God’s Word was more important than being the woman who gave birth to the Savior.

Nowhere in Scripture does Jesus, or anyone else, direct any praise, glory, or adoration towards Mary. Elizabeth, Mary’s relative, praised Mary in Luke 1:42-44, but her praise is based on the blessing of giving birth to the Messiah. It was not based on any inherent glory in Mary.

Mary was present at the cross when Jesus died (John 19:25). Mary was also with the apostles on the day of Pentecost (Acts 1:14). However, Mary is never mentioned again after Acts chapter 1. The apostles did not give Mary a prominent role. Mary’s death is not recorded in the Bible. Nothing is said about Mary ascending to heaven or having an exalted role there. As the earthly mother of Jesus, Mary should be respected, but she is not worthy of our worship or adoration.

The Bible nowhere indicates that Mary can hear our prayers or that she can mediate for us with God. Jesus is our only advocate and mediator in heaven (1 Timothy 2:5). If offered worship, adoration, or prayers, Mary would say the same as the angels: “Worship God!” (see Revelation 19:10; 22:9.) Mary herself sets the example for us, directing her worship, adoration, and praise to God alone: “My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for He has been mindful of the humble state of His servant. From now on all generations will call me blessed, for the Mighty One has done great things for me — holy is His name” (Luke 1:46-49).

Sent from my SM-N915V using Tapatalk

 

[Light of the East]

But you see, Catholics are not allowed to interpret scripture. Only the Magisterium is allowed to do that. All a Catholic can do is hit the "I believe" button and accept whatever intereptation the Magisterium comes up with. This is not an attack against Catholics. It is a fact that Catholics are not allowed to determine for themselves what scripture is actually saying and it is rather rich that you are accusing others of not properly doing it.

Here's a little history which you may find interesting. As a Fundamentalist and then a Calvinist, the Bible was everything and as you know, Bible study was deeply encouraged. So I learned to use a Concordance and to use the helps from men far smarter than I, such as Greek translations of the original into English. I listened to numerous Bible conferences and learned about the methodologies of studying the Scriptures.

Now when I was in Fundamentalism, the only way to interpret the Scriptures was the "literal method," which is simply if the Bible doesn't say it, word for word, then it doesn't exist. So if the Bible doesn't say, word for word, that Mary is Queen of Heaven, then that is a made up piece of Catholic nonsense to them.

The funny thing is that they don't even believe their own rules. I've heard them describe David as a prototype of Jesus, but they don't see Mary as Ark of the New Covenant, using the same methodology. I hear them talk about Dispensationalism, which word only appears 4 times in the NT only, yet describe Covenant Theology as "of the devil" when the word "covenant" appears over 300 times in OT and NT.

Very inconsistent.

When I was using the various methods of interpretation to try to destroy Catholicism, I found that what I came up with agreed with the premises of Catholic understanding.

Scott Hahn and others had similar experiences, and they are far, far smarter than I will ever dream of being. (Like reading Greek and Hebrew).

So when I say "you don't know how to interpret the Bible" I am criticizing those who think that literalism is a proper methodology. It isn't. It has it's place, such as when God says "Thou shalt not steal." one does not look for cute interpretive ways to get around that. But one simply has to go deeper.

 

[Light of the East]

Nope she said "how can this be when I haven't been with a man?" Just like everyone else she questioned what was being said to her. It is about time you stopped skipping bits of the Bible and actually quoted the entire context.

Honestly???? You don't understand the difference between asking how something will be accomplished and saying "Nope. Ain't gonna do dat!"

Pathetic.

I may have an entirely willing heart to perform anything which I am told to do, but I may still need or want directions on how to get it done. Confusion is not disobedience.

Sheeeeesh!

 

[Albion]

No denominations = non-denominational

catholic church = the collective individual christians and is not a denomination

Roman Catholic & Eastern Orthodox = two denominations

Sent from my SM-N915V using Tapatalk

Or non-denominational = a very small denomination.

Unless one doesn't attend worship services anywhere, that's what a person means when describing himself as non-denominational.

 

[Light of the East]

I incorrectly assumed you were interested in earliest references as more authoritative, being closer to apostolic times, rather than later understandings from other men.

But yes, some folks came to interpret Mary as the Ark of the (new) Covenant, carrying the king,priest,prophet. This led them to new dogmas about Mary the Ark, such as ever-virgin, immaculate conception, and such. Could you explain why this association began?

I can't explain the Immaculate Conception because no such thing is taught in Eastern Orthodoxy. It is a distinctly Western approach which creates anthropological problems for the Orthodox. +Fr. Thomas Hopko, writing on the things which will have to change if union between East and West is to be accomplished said this is one that will have to go.

The other, the ever-virginity of Mary, is existent in the writings of the Early Fathers. Apparently Her perpetual virginity was known by the Apostles. They would have seen or known about Her relationship with Joseph and passed that information on to the next generation.

There are also other non-canonical clues, such as the description of Mary in the Gospel of Thomas in which it speaks about Her being dedicated to God as a Temple Virgin. This would have placed Her under a vow of permanent celibacy. "Marriage" was arranged for these women as a way of sponsorship for them, not for procreation or the raising of a family. So this history goes back a long way, as opposed to the Immaculate Conception, which was declared doctrine by Pope Pius IX in his papal bull Ineffabilis Deus. in 1854.