Predestination, is it coercive determinism ?

[keltoi]

He said he doesn't know.
I think we should believe him.

I'd prefer to believe the Bible over what any human says

 

[Jan001]

...followed by the Roman Catholic Church following their lead and omitting some of the Bible's contents on their own.

And these are?

 

[Jan001]

That's for you to decide, but the point wasn't what church you personally want to belong to. It was that the Creeds and Councils owe more to the input of the Eastern representatives than to the Latin ones.


You needn't recite what you learned in RCIA class to me--at least not in every post. Sticking to the topic would be just fine.

I did not learn this in any RCIA class.

But, according to both Scripture and the historical record, we know that it is Peter and his successors alone who hold the keys of the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Jan001]

You're correct there is nothing more to be done once we accept the FREE GIFT OF GRACE

So, if you murder someone or commit adultery or fornication, you are still saved?

 

[Jan001]

The scripture we have are the writings of Christ, His Apostles and His disciples and the catholic had absolutely nothing to do with writing any of the known scriptures. Copying scriptures has nothing to do with the original writers despite your erroneous claims.

Who do you think had possession of the original Scriptures?

 

[Albion]

I did not learn this in any RCIA class.

Usually, however, that's the explanation..

But, according to both Scripture and the historical record, we know that it is Peter and his successors alone who hold the keys of the kingdom of heaven.

No, that's not so. But if thinking it's so is necessary for you, I'm not going to fight it. If it's simply a case of having been misled, I'd hope you would o some study on your own.

 

[Jan001]

So now you want to change your original claim. I see once the facts are pointed you can't admit you were mistaken.

You can believe whatever you want to believe.

Moses himself gave God's law to the Israelites. This is why it was called the Law of Moses.

Luke 24:44
Then he said to them, “These are my words which I spoke to you, while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the law of Moses and the prophets and the psalms must be fulfilled.” rsv

John 7:19
Did not Moses give you the law? Yet none of you keeps the law. Why do you seek to kill me?” rsv

Hebrews 10:28
A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. rsv​

 

[Jan001]

Actually they were and all you need do is google it.

1126 - Peter of Bruis - Burned at the Stake - Rejected Rome’s traditions
1155 - Arnold of Brescia - Bible Preacher - Hanged and Burned
1211 - 80 Waldensians - burned at the stake
1215 - 80 Christians - Tried by red hot iron and burned to death the same day in Strasburg, Germany.
1237 - 15 Christians burned alive at Cerdagne and Castlebon, Spain
1315 - Waldensian Bishop Neumunster - Burned at the stake in Hamburg, Germany
1315 - 50 Women and children burned at the stake in Schweidnitz in Silesia
1386 - Christmas Eve- Inquisitor Borelli attacks Valley of Pragela; hundreds frozen to death trying to escape.
1400 - William Sawtree - Wycliffe follower - Burned at the stake
1408 - John Resby - Heresy - Burned at Perth, Scotland
1409 - Tailor named Bradbe - Wycliffe follower - Roasted alive in a barrel
1415 - John Huss - Burned for preaching the Gospel and rejecting Rome’s views
1416 - 300 burned at the stake in Saxony
1417 - Sir John Oldcastle - Helped distribute Wycliffe Bible - Martyred for his faith by being roasted over fire
1427 - John Purvey - Bible distribution - died in prison - 1421-7
1431 - Paul Craws - Convicted at St. Andrews, Scotland and burned to death
1481/2 - 2,000 people burned alive in Spanish Inquisition in Seville and Castile
1488 - 3,000 Waldensian believers murdered in a cave called Aigue-Froid
1506 - William Tylsworth - Burned for his faith in the Word of God
1511 - James Brewster - Burned at the stake - Having a book of Scripture
1514 - Richard Hun - Died suspiciously in Lollard’s Tower in London
1519 - Six men and women burned for teaching their children the Lord’s prayer - London
1525 - Gospel preacher named Schuch - Burned at the stake in Strasburg for preaching and having a Bible - His Bible was burned with
him.
1528 - Patrick Hamilton - Burned at the Stake in Scotland for declaring that it is the right of any person to read God’s Word
1529 - Louis Berquin - Burned at the Stake in France for printing and distributing Bible tracts in French
1530 - John Tewksbury - Burned at the stake for Bible distribution - England
1531 - Thomas Bilney - Martyred for preaching and distributing the Tyndale Bible
1531 - Richard Bayfield - Burned at the stake for Scripture distribution
1532 - James Bainham - Burned for possessing Scriptures in the English language
1533 - Henry Forrest - Benedictine Monk who became saved - Burned at the stake in St. Andrews, Scotland
1533 - John Fryth - Burned for preaching the true Gospel - England
1534/5 - 24 Protestants burned alive in Paris, France
1535 - Dean Forret - Burned for having Scripture in the English tongue - Scotland
1536 - William Tyndale - Burned at the Stake for Translating the Bible into English - His translation became the groundwork for the King
James Version
1536 - Ann Boleyn - Wife of Henry the VIII - Beheaded for the true faith
1540 - Thomas Garrett - Friend of Tyndale - Burned at the stake - England
1545 - Massacre of Merindol and Cabrieres, France - Thousands of Waldensians murdered
1546 - Peter Chapot burned to death in Meaux, France for bringing French bibles to France
1546 - Stephen Polliot - Burned at the Stake for bringing Scriptures into France - His tongue was cut out so he could not witness to those
around him at his execution.
1546 - Ann Askew - Tortured and burnt for studying and believing the true Scriptures
1548 - Paul Fagius - Burned for translating the Bible - England
1548 - Martin Bucer - Burned for translating the Bible - England
1553 - Nicholas Nayle - Burned at the stake in Paris because he brought gospel books for believers.
1554 - Lady Jane Grey - Beheaded for her conversion to true Christianity
1555 - Nicholas Ridley - Burned for his faith - England
1555 - Hugh Latimer - Burned for his faith - England
1555 - John Rogers - Translator of the Matthews Bible into English
1556 - Bartholmew Hector - Preaching and Bible Distribution -Burned at Thurin
1560 - Julian Hernandez - Burned at the stake in Spain for Bible Distribution
1560 - Jean Louis Paschale - Believed the Bible over Romish teachings
1560 - Stefano Negrino - Starved to death in prison - Italy
1561 - 88 men had throats slit in Montalto - Italy
1561 - Hugo Chiamps - Entrails torn from his body at Turin, Italy
1561 - Peter Geymarali - Entrails torn from his body at Lucerna, Italy
1561 - Maria Romano - Buried alive at Rocco-patia, Italy
1561 - Magdalen Foulano - Buried alive at San Giovanni, Italy
1561 - Susan Michelini - Hands and feet bound - Left to die in cold and hunger - Saracena, Italy
1561 - Bartholomew Fache - Gashed with Sabres and wounds filled with quicklime - Died from the agonizing pain
1561 - James Baridari -Sulpherous matches placed all over body and then lit
1561 - Daniel Revelli - Mouth filled with gun powder and then lit - Head blown to pieces
1561 - Maria Monnen - Flesh cut from cheek and chin thus exposing cheek bone- left to Perish
1561 - Thomas Margueti - Mutilated to death at Miraboco, Italy
1561 - Sudan Jaquin - Cut to bits in La Torre, Italy
1561 - Sara Rostagnol - Slit open from legs to Bosom - Perished on road between Eyral and Lucerna
1561 - Anna Char bonnier - Impaled on a spike and carried from San Giovanni to La Torre
1561 - Daniel Rambaud - Refused to renounce the true Gospel as they took his nails off, then fingers, then his feet, then his hands, then
his arms and finally his legs at Paesano, Italy
1562 - James Bovell - Rejected Rome’s teachings in favor of the Bible
1566 - Francesco Spinula - Drowned at Venice, Italy for making a Latin version of the Psalms
1567 - Pietro Carnesecchi - Refused to bow to papal authority
1570 - Aonio Paleario - Martyred for writing a book called “The benefit of Christ’s Death.”
1572 - St Bartholomew’s Day Massacre - 4,000 brutally murdered of the French Huguenots - It lasted from August 24 to October 23 -
Total killed during this time was about 35,000

How many Catholics were killed by Protestants?

 

[Jan001]

The scripture is showing just because a human says something doesn't make it true. Christ is the truth who do you believe, the person who says he did something in Christ's name or Christ who says "I never knew you"? Please note Christ doesn't say I once new you but you were a bad boy once to often so you're not getting in here rather he says "I never knew you" which indicates they were never, ever saved.

The person whose name is not written in the Book of Life, Jesus will deny that He knows him.

This does not mean that the person was never saved at one time.

Titus 1:16
They profess to know God, but they deny him by their deeds; they are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good deed. rsv

Matthew 10:33
but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven. rsv

​

Jesus will deny that He knows the persons who believed for a while but then fell away from the faith through their own disobedience. These persons denied Him by their evil deeds.

Luke 8:13
And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy; but these have no root, they believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. rsv
​

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

So, if you murder someone or commit adultery or fornication, you are still saved?

Perhaps you can tell us which sins Christ didn't die for? Please be specific.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Who do you think had possession of the original Scriptures?

The churches they were written to and again if you claim has any credence which of the many churches mentioned in the New Covenant was the catholic church?

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

You can believe whatever you want to believe.

Moses himself gave God's law to the Israelites. This is why it was called the Law of Moses.

Luke 24:44
Then he said to them, “These are my words which I spoke to you, while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the law of Moses and the prophets and the psalms must be fulfilled.” rsv

John 7:19
Did not Moses give you the law? Yet none of you keeps the law. Why do you seek to kill me?” rsv

Hebrews 10:28
A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. rsv​

Pehaps you can tell us once again where Moses got those laws? Oh wait........

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

How many Catholics were killed by Protestants?

I don't know how many people the catholic and protestant churches murdered but I'm sure it's quite a few eh? Why do you ask it's your history. So how many Baptists do you think the catholic church murdered knowing we never shared in catholic and protestant churches evil doings during the dark ages the catholic church is responsible for? BTW you do know one of your popes apologized for those atrocity's. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_apologies_made_by_Pope_John_Paul_II

 

[keltoi]

The person whose name is not written in the Book of Life, Jesus will deny that He knows him.

This does not mean that the person was never saved at one time.

Wow so Christ is fickle, I never knew that he would save someone put their name in the Book of Life and hen remove it. You would think that because God knows everything he wouldn't have wasted time by putting someone's name in the Book of life who he was later going to "unsave".

You do know that what you are posting is extremely unbiblical, don't you?

 

[Rick Otto]

So, if you murder someone or commit adultery or fornication, you are still saved?

So if you're saved, you no longer are vulnerable to sin, and won't need forgiveness for anything ever again?

 

[Rick Otto]

How many Catholics were killed by Protestants?

As many as we're needed for self defense.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

As many as we're needed for self defense.

 

[GillDouglas]

Threads like this make me happy to be Catholic. In all honesty I don't see how the Calvinist point of view doesn't lead one to nihilism. Heck if you are already predestined one way or the other, and there isn't nothing you can do about it, then why even worry about doing anything Christ-like? Live your life as you see fit, and let everything wash itself out in the end.

"The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this [Calvinist]. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get." (Luke 18:11-12)

Note: I replaced tax-collector with Calvinist.

 

[GillDouglas]

Clearly there is something in it for me.

Gal 6
7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. 8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.9Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

Amen! So true brother. Clearly your hard work will pay off. Oh wait, shouldn't you be trusting in the perfect work of Christ instead of trying to add to it? Well anyway, reap what you sow!

 

[GillDouglas]

Mention things like babies and young children being predestined to hell and the Calvy brigade do an about turn, double talk, any other trick or dodge you can think of.

Is that so? Is this a demonstration of love, for your brother? What do you have to gain from such cruel words? To speak of an unbeliever in such a manner is hateful, but about a fellow Christian is downright despicable? This does not help your cause.

FYI: God gets what God wants whether any of us like it or not. God didn't create this world or us for us, He made it and us for Himself. He has the final, rightful and righteous say. End of story.