Predestination, is it coercive determinism ?

[Albion]

The Protestants used the Scriptures that the Catholics preserved to make their own Protestant Bibles. Many of these Protestants left out some of the Scripture Books that they did not want.

...followed by the Roman Catholic Church following their lead and omitting some of the Bible's contents on their own.

 

[Albion]

If an Eastern Orthodox Patriarch today held the keys of the kingdom of heaven, I'd have to be one of his flock. But, since he does not, and because the Catholic/Roman Pontiff does hold the keys of the kingdom of heaven, I will have to remain Catholic, Roman Rite.

That's for you to decide, but the point wasn't what church you personally want to belong to. It was that the Creeds and Councils owe more to the input of the Eastern representatives than to the Latin ones.

The Catholic Creed more clearly explains the relationship between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Scriptures do indeed verify the Catholic Creed.

You needn't recite what you learned in RCIA class to me--at least not in every post. Sticking to the topic would be just fine.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Christ gives us salvation as His gift to us. We keep ourselves saved by doing what God commanded us to do until we die. What are we commanded to do?

10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works,which God prepared in advance for us to do. niv
​

Any person who calls Jesus, "Lord," and does not do what He commands them to do is a liar. Jesus is not the Lord of evildoers.

Luke 6:46
“Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? niv

Matthew 5:19-24
Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. nkjv​

We keep ourselves in the grace of God by our obedience to His commands. We continue to be saved by our obedience to God's commandments.

1 Timothy 4:16
Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you. nkjv​

You're correct there is nothing more to be done once we accept the FREE GIFT OF GRACE

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

The NT Scriptures were preserved and hand-written by Catholic monks and other learned Catholic men for hundreds of years before the Protestant revolution and the invention of the printing press. The Protestants used the Scriptures that the Catholics preserved to make their own Protestant Bibles. Many of these Protestants left out some of the Scripture Books that they did not want.

The scripture we have are the writings of Christ, His Apostles and His disciples and the catholic had absolutely nothing to do with writing any of the known scriptures. Copying scriptures has nothing to do with the original writers despite your erroneous claims.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Both!

God's first, Moses' second. Moses was the mouthpiece of God.

So now you want to change your original claim. I see once the facts are pointed you can't admit you were mistaken.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

No one was burned at the stake for simply making the Bible available to the common people.

Many faulty Bible translations were produced because of these unauthorized translations. Also, it is not a good idea to apply 21st Century moral thinking to past historical events.

Actually they were and all you need do is google it.

1126 - Peter of Bruis - Burned at the Stake - Rejected Rome’s traditions
1155 - Arnold of Brescia - Bible Preacher - Hanged and Burned
1211 - 80 Waldensians - burned at the stake
1215 - 80 Christians - Tried by red hot iron and burned to death the same day in Strasburg, Germany.
1237 - 15 Christians burned alive at Cerdagne and Castlebon, Spain
1315 - Waldensian Bishop Neumunster - Burned at the stake in Hamburg, Germany
1315 - 50 Women and children burned at the stake in Schweidnitz in Silesia
1386 - Christmas Eve- Inquisitor Borelli attacks Valley of Pragela; hundreds frozen to death trying to escape.
1400 - William Sawtree - Wycliffe follower - Burned at the stake
1408 - John Resby - Heresy - Burned at Perth, Scotland
1409 - Tailor named Bradbe - Wycliffe follower - Roasted alive in a barrel
1415 - John Huss - Burned for preaching the Gospel and rejecting Rome’s views
1416 - 300 burned at the stake in Saxony
1417 - Sir John Oldcastle - Helped distribute Wycliffe Bible - Martyred for his faith by being roasted over fire
1427 - John Purvey - Bible distribution - died in prison - 1421-7
1431 - Paul Craws - Convicted at St. Andrews, Scotland and burned to death
1481/2 - 2,000 people burned alive in Spanish Inquisition in Seville and Castile
1488 - 3,000 Waldensian believers murdered in a cave called Aigue-Froid
1506 - William Tylsworth - Burned for his faith in the Word of God
1511 - James Brewster - Burned at the stake - Having a book of Scripture
1514 - Richard Hun - Died suspiciously in Lollard’s Tower in London
1519 - Six men and women burned for teaching their children the Lord’s prayer - London
1525 - Gospel preacher named Schuch - Burned at the stake in Strasburg for preaching and having a Bible - His Bible was burned with
him.
1528 - Patrick Hamilton - Burned at the Stake in Scotland for declaring that it is the right of any person to read God’s Word
1529 - Louis Berquin - Burned at the Stake in France for printing and distributing Bible tracts in French
1530 - John Tewksbury - Burned at the stake for Bible distribution - England
1531 - Thomas Bilney - Martyred for preaching and distributing the Tyndale Bible
1531 - Richard Bayfield - Burned at the stake for Scripture distribution
1532 - James Bainham - Burned for possessing Scriptures in the English language
1533 - Henry Forrest - Benedictine Monk who became saved - Burned at the stake in St. Andrews, Scotland
1533 - John Fryth - Burned for preaching the true Gospel - England
1534/5 - 24 Protestants burned alive in Paris, France
1535 - Dean Forret - Burned for having Scripture in the English tongue - Scotland
1536 - William Tyndale - Burned at the Stake for Translating the Bible into English - His translation became the groundwork for the King
James Version
1536 - Ann Boleyn - Wife of Henry the VIII - Beheaded for the true faith
1540 - Thomas Garrett - Friend of Tyndale - Burned at the stake - England
1545 - Massacre of Merindol and Cabrieres, France - Thousands of Waldensians murdered
1546 - Peter Chapot burned to death in Meaux, France for bringing French bibles to France
1546 - Stephen Polliot - Burned at the Stake for bringing Scriptures into France - His tongue was cut out so he could not witness to those
around him at his execution.
1546 - Ann Askew - Tortured and burnt for studying and believing the true Scriptures
1548 - Paul Fagius - Burned for translating the Bible - England
1548 - Martin Bucer - Burned for translating the Bible - England
1553 - Nicholas Nayle - Burned at the stake in Paris because he brought gospel books for believers.
1554 - Lady Jane Grey - Beheaded for her conversion to true Christianity
1555 - Nicholas Ridley - Burned for his faith - England
1555 - Hugh Latimer - Burned for his faith - England
1555 - John Rogers - Translator of the Matthews Bible into English
1556 - Bartholmew Hector - Preaching and Bible Distribution -Burned at Thurin
1560 - Julian Hernandez - Burned at the stake in Spain for Bible Distribution
1560 - Jean Louis Paschale - Believed the Bible over Romish teachings
1560 - Stefano Negrino - Starved to death in prison - Italy
1561 - 88 men had throats slit in Montalto - Italy
1561 - Hugo Chiamps - Entrails torn from his body at Turin, Italy
1561 - Peter Geymarali - Entrails torn from his body at Lucerna, Italy
1561 - Maria Romano - Buried alive at Rocco-patia, Italy
1561 - Magdalen Foulano - Buried alive at San Giovanni, Italy
1561 - Susan Michelini - Hands and feet bound - Left to die in cold and hunger - Saracena, Italy
1561 - Bartholomew Fache - Gashed with Sabres and wounds filled with quicklime - Died from the agonizing pain
1561 - James Baridari -Sulpherous matches placed all over body and then lit
1561 - Daniel Revelli - Mouth filled with gun powder and then lit - Head blown to pieces
1561 - Maria Monnen - Flesh cut from cheek and chin thus exposing cheek bone- left to Perish
1561 - Thomas Margueti - Mutilated to death at Miraboco, Italy
1561 - Sudan Jaquin - Cut to bits in La Torre, Italy
1561 - Sara Rostagnol - Slit open from legs to Bosom - Perished on road between Eyral and Lucerna
1561 - Anna Char bonnier - Impaled on a spike and carried from San Giovanni to La Torre
1561 - Daniel Rambaud - Refused to renounce the true Gospel as they took his nails off, then fingers, then his feet, then his hands, then
his arms and finally his legs at Paesano, Italy
1562 - James Bovell - Rejected Rome’s teachings in favor of the Bible
1566 - Francesco Spinula - Drowned at Venice, Italy for making a Latin version of the Psalms
1567 - Pietro Carnesecchi - Refused to bow to papal authority
1570 - Aonio Paleario - Martyred for writing a book called “The benefit of Christ’s Death.”
1572 - St Bartholomew’s Day Massacre - 4,000 brutally murdered of the French Huguenots - It lasted from August 24 to October 23 -
Total killed during this time was about 35,000

 

[keltoi]

Scripture states that indeed they did do all the following things in Jesus' name:

Matthew 7:22
Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’" niv
​

The problem is that they also did evil things and because they did not repent of their evildoing before death, they are not approved worthy to inherit/enter eternal life. Please note that Jesus did not contradict their claims that they prophesied in His name, drove out demons in His name, and performed many miracles in His name.

The scripture is showing just because a human says something doesn't make it true. Christ is the truth who do you believe, the person who says he did something in Christ's name or Christ who says "I never knew you"? Please note Christ doesn't say I once new you but you were a bad boy once to often so you're not getting in here rather he says "I never knew you" which indicates they were never, ever saved.

 

[bling]

"...maybe God chose not to know in His time frame some things."

That God would choose not to know something is so counter-intuitive, I can't imagine it happening.
How could and why would, an omniscient being selectively "forget" anything?
It defies sense, in my opinion. No offense, bro.

From the context of my comment I was speaking only in God's time frame and not our time frame. In the Spiritual world there could be a sequencing of events, by God's design, so there could be "change", spiritual growth for other beings could take place with God not choosing to know. In the Spiritual realm why would this be an issue and impossible for God to choose to do?

 

[keltoi]

From the context of my comment I was speaking only in God's time frame and not our time frame. In the Spiritual world there could be a sequencing of events, by God's design, so there could be "change", spiritual growth for other beings could take place with God not choosing to know. In the Spiritual realm why would this be an issue and impossible for God to choose to do?

I agree with Rick Otto it is counter intuitive. We are remind so often that God knows everything why would he choose not to know something?

 

[Rick Otto]

From the context of my comment I was speaking only in God's time frame and not our time frame. In the Spiritual world there could be a sequencing of events, by God's design, so there could be "change", spiritual growth for other beings could take place with God not choosing to know. In the Spiritual realm why would this be an issue and impossible for God to choose to do?

If His nature is omniscient, it violates His nature.
The sequencing of events IS time, so it is all present in eternity.
The conclusions conflict with the definitions of terms.

 

[ToBeLoved]

If His nature is omniscient, it violates His nature.
The sequencing of events IS time, so it is all present in eternity.
The conclusions conflict with the definitions of terms.

Can you explain this in more detail?

You do not believe God is Omniscient?

Now this is very interesting.

 

[Rick Otto]

Can you explain this in more detail?

You do not believe God is Omniscient?

Now this is very interesting.

No, I believe He IS omniscient

 

[Rick Otto]

Absolutely. Adding that speculation seems to me mainly a technique used by the unlimited Freewill folks to ridicule the idea of Election.


Agreed, although I am inclined towards the idea that the plan does include selecting certain individuals, not just something that's overall or general.

That's what I'm sayin', too.

 

[ToBeLoved]

No, I believe He IS omniscient

Oh. Ok.

 

[Albion]

The sentence structure just threw you off, TBL. The "it" in red referred to something other than omniscience.

 

[bling]

If His nature is omniscient, it violates His nature.
The sequencing of events IS time, so it is all present in eternity.
The conclusions conflict with the definitions of terms.

You are using man’s definition of “omniscient” and not the Bible. You and I do not know how thing operate in the spiritual realm. In God’s time frame the future may not be knowable, while in our time frame God knows all the future (it could be all present time for God. Knowing everything can mean knowing everything that is knowable.

You are making assumptions about stuff the Bible does not address.

 

[bling]

I agree with Rick Otto it is counter intuitive. We are remind so often that God knows everything why would he choose not to know something?

God knowing "everything" can just be referring to our universe and not the spiritual universe God presides in. You are making assumptions about a place we know very little about or can even imagine.

 

[keltoi]

God knowing "everything" can just be referring to our universe and not the spiritual universe God presides in. You are making assumptions about a place we know very little about or can even imagine.

It is you making assumptions. The Bible says numerous times that God knows everything, if the Bible says it I believe it. If you don't believe it then you mustn't believe Gods word.

 

[Rick Otto]

You are using man’s definition of “omniscient” and not the Bible. You and I do not know how thing operate in the spiritual realm. In God’s time frame the future may not be knowable, while in our time frame God knows all the future (it could be all present time for God. Knowing everything can mean knowing everything that is knowable.

You are making assumptions about stuff the Bible does not address.

Since you and I don't know, I will refrain from talking about it further with you.
Thanks for the head's up.

 

[Rick Otto]

It is you making assumptions. The Bible says numerous times that God knows everything, if the Bible says it I believe it. If you don't believe it then you mustn't believe Gods word.

He said he doesn't know.
I think we should believe him.