Question to Protestants regarding certain Catholic beliefs

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

This has been refuted so many times here that such is absurd and not even worthy of a comment.

Did you know that even Saint Augustine and Thomas Aquinas rejected the idea of the Immaculate Conception and the ascension of Mary? Yet the Roman Catholic Church places such a high value on Apostolic Succession. ...as long as their views align with their own.

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[Albion]

Did you know that even Saint Augustine and Thomas Aquinas rejected the idea of the Immaculate Conception and the ascension of Mary?

Is that because they considered them to be borrowed from some pagan cult of Isis?

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Is that because they considered them to be borrowed from some pagan cult of Isis?

No. It is because it never happened. It wasn't until much later that those were fabricated. But eh.... who would know more about Mary, a 19th century Pope or 2nd and 13rd century theologians?

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[Rick Otto]

So do we all agree that this is something (disagreements on doctrine among the members) that is to be found in both the Catholic Church and the non-Catholic churches? If so, the only issue would be whether or not the church bodies that we're considering CLAIM NOT TO HAVE such divisions.

The ones that do that have a cognizant dissonance about what their church body is. Even when acting as an elected pope, if something distasteful is done, it automatically is considered the action of one individual, not "the church".

 

[Rick Otto]

First of all, why do you think that it is necessary to set up a competition between Mary and the Holy Spirit. Why is it that you see cooperation with the plan of God as competition with God Himself?

Here is a link of quotes from the Early Fathers showing that they did indeed regard Mary as the Ark of the Covenant:
.

Important others being wrong doesn't make us right.

That isn't saying the ECF you mention were wrong, it just means quantity does not improve quality of any position.

 

[Albion]

No. It is because it never happened.

That's correct, but then this doesn't do much to confirm your contention about the cult of Isis, does it?

 

[Rick Otto]

Go back to the Old Covenant. You will find a description of the priesthood and corresponding high priesthood described there.

It's shame you don't know your Bible better.

It's a shame you don't.

 

[Linet Kihonge]

So the Lord walked with the Israelites close to a millenium, he ministered through prophets and righteous sons of men, He sent his only begotten Son who picked 12 followers taught them everything they needed to know and after that sent his Holy Spirit to all Jews from all nations around the world and NONE of them were given any hints on Mary as ark of the New Covenant. The Bible ended by describing how the world ended and none of it gave a mention to the Ark of the New Covenant.

So the LORD skipped all those people including his own Son and the Holy Spirit inspirations to tell the Early Fathers! Jingle Jingle, Guess who's Mary? And I'm supposed to run with that! Really?

Non of what I posted usurps the Holy Trinity; God, Father and Holy Spirit. Rather all of this was facilitated by God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and points to God's mercy, through the incarnation of His Son Jesus. Just as film makers give credit to the supporting actors and actresses; so God's word enlightens us to the great heroes of the faith; and sets them before us as examples.

BTW, did you know that today is the Birth-day of the Chruch; the festival of Pentecost; the 3rd most important commemoration of the Chruch after Easter (1) and Christmas (2). Besides the Trinity (whom we invoke at each and every service) this is "the" Festival of the Holy Spirit.

Condemn liturgical Churches all you want, but the fact remains that most reformed and protestant Churches seem to us, to come across as almost negligent when it comes to the witness of these great persons whom God chose to reveal to us in his word (which God would not have done had he wanted us to be ignorant to the great contributions that were made to His plan at the urging of the Holy Spirit).

Sorry if it might be too cat-lik for you guys, Lutheran though it is.

When the Apostles cast out demons, and healed people they did it in the name of the LORD. When people received healing they only wanted to know the Jesus the Paul and the apostles preached. I know how much the canonized mean to RCCs because there's a Sister who shared her encounters with St. Peter and from the look of things she seemed in complete honor of the Saint even though she looked overwhelmed by the warfare she expressed to us. So I totally get you! I've seen how much Mary means to some of the Catholic devout. I'm saddened that the more Prayers are answered through her the more she takes a center stage in the spiritual aspects of the RCC faithfuls. The more prayers are answered the stronger the defense for the Blessed Virgin. At the end of the Day, the Holy Spirit is still a part of the Triune and highly acknowledged by you and on the other hand, there's someone who believes that Mary is the best person to consult in case you have a need. Who's the Holy Spirit to the Devout who believes "my encounters with Mary have changed my Life?"

All I'm saying it may not be deliberate but someone has been stealing HIS Show!!!

 

[SkyWriting]

> Why are protestants so against this title, when it is actually true in away. If you don't deny that Mary is the actual mother of Jesus, likewise do not deny that Jesus was also fully God, then what is the problem? Isn't saying Mary is the mother of Jesus, saying "Mary is the mother of God"? I mean, Elizabeth said "the mother of my Lord" to her, and Revelations does talk about her in such a high fashion. Catholic's don't believe this statement means she is above or pre-exists God but just making sure that the divine nature of Jesus is not denied.

She is not deserving of the title, based on the focus of the Apostles.
She does not intercede.

 

[SkyWriting]

For one, Catholics believe that asking Mary, angels, and Saints for prayers is nowhere different than asking someone in church to pray for them. I mean, if protestants cling to the "Jesus is the only mediator (which is true) between God and man" then wouldn't it be hypocritical on a protestant to ask for a fellow church mate for prayers? Does asking someone to intercede for us contradict the "Jesus is the only mediator to God" doctrine?

You are correct. The Holy Spirit actually creates your prayers for you if you allow.
These get "answered." Asking others to pray for "something" has no effect.
Likely you've noticed that prayers don't get answered?
The process of prayer is to allow the Holy Spirit to change your prayers
to match what God has planned. Then they are instantly answered, by definition.

 

[SkyWriting]

Now, some may say: "Well, one of the reasons why is because how can the Saints hear the prayers of millions of people around the world, in different languages that they never understood when they were alive"? Which is a logical answer.
However, all protestant churches teach how Satan goes around the world, tempting every single person around the world, through out time, and with different dialects to sin. If you believe that Satan -a fallen angel, the king of evil- has this near-omni present power, and this ability to speak in different languages to millions of people around the world then why can't you believe that a faithful servant of God (who is in heaven) can do petitioning/intercession for millions of people?

The Holy Spirit corrects your prayer to fit God will if you let it.
This is how prayers get answered, by being adjusted to God's will.
The intercessions are directed at you to change at the Fathers request.

 

[SkyWriting]

You are correct. The Holy Spirit actually creates your prayers for you if you allow.
These get "answered." Asking others to pray for "something" has no effect.
Likely you've noticed that prayers don't get answered?
The process of prayer is to allow the Holy Spirit to change your prayers
to match what God has planned. Then they are instantly answered, by definition.

The Lord's Prayer is a great model for this line of thinking.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

That's correct, but then this doesn't do much to confirm your contention about the cult of Isis, does it?

You are missing the point. In every arguement that I ever have with a Catholics, they always bring up "sacred tradition" in order to explain why Mary is only mentioned a few times in scripture yet apparently the immaculate conception and the ascension of Mary been declared via excathedra by the Pope. However when we do look at the source of said "sacred tradition" (aka. The church fathers), they claim the exact opposite. So the question is this, "If the imaculate conception and ascension of Mary did not come from "sacred tradition " and is nowhere mentioned in the holy scriptures, then where did it come from?

 

[Albion]

You are missing the point. In every arguement that I ever have with a Catholics, they always bring up "sacred tradition" in order to explain why Mary is only mentioned a few times in scripture yet apparently the immaculate conception and the ascension of Mary been declared via excathedra by the Pope. However when we do look at the source of said "sacred tradition" (aka. The church fathers), they claim the exact opposite. So the question is this, "If the imaculate conception and ascension of Mary did not come from "sacred tradition " and is nowhere mentioned in the holy scriptures, then where did it come from?

It isn't a retread from any cult of Isis, and you did bring that up earlier. The origin of such legends about the Virgin owe to the gradual elaboration and then greater elaboration on the simple idea of the mother of Jesus having been honored by God. The same thing happens with other religions and we even do the same with our political figures, making the images of them bigger and bigger in memory and with people and governments outdoing each other until the revered one is made out to be larger in death than they actually were in life.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

It isn't a retread from any cult of Isis, and you did bring that up earlier. The origin of such legends about the Virgin owe to the gradual elaboration and then greater elaboration on the simple idea of the mother of Jesus having been honored by God. The same thing happens with other religions and we even do the same with our political figures, making the images of them bigger and bigger in memory and with people and governments outdoing each other until the revered one is made out to be larger in death than they actually were in life.

So are you suggesting that the Immaculate Conception and the ascension of Mary is nothing more than the "gradual elaboration" of a Legend? Yet this "gradual elaboration" was declared excathedra to be true. What does that say about the Roman Catholic "sacred traditions". Are they nothing more than "gradual elaboration " also?

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[Albion]

So are you suggesting that the Immaculate Conception and the ascension of Mary is nothing more than the "gradual elaboration" of a Legend?

Yes--so far as the question of where they came from is concerned. Of course, they've been made into dogma, as you correctly noted.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Yes--so far as the question of where they came from is concerned. Of course, they've been made into dogma, as you correctly noted.

Do you still consider yourself a Catholic? I am just asking because we are talking about two dogmas that have been declared by the Pope to be infallibly true (excathedra ) and you have labeled them to be nothing more than "gradual elaborations". What would that say about the institution of the RCC including the authority of the Pope and the Magisterium?

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[Standing Up]

Go back to the Old Covenant. You will find a description of the priesthood and corresponding high priesthood described there.

It's shame you don't know your Bible better.

Quite true that the RC model sources to the Levitical system.

 

[Albion]

Do you still consider yourself a Catholic? I am just asking because we are talking about two dogmas that have been declared by the Pope to be infallibly true (excathedra ) and you have labeled them to be nothing more than "gradual elaborations".

Read carefully what I've written. I did not say that they were nothing more than gradual elaborations. These ideas are not simply carried over from a pagan cult. They evolved as Christians tried to heap more and more honors upon her, outdoing each other with the snazzyness and mystical claims that were involved. So, ultimately the Roman Church formalized them as doctrines (exactly as I said), claiming that since the people had believed them, that shows that the hand of God was involved in it. That's the way these things work. No, I don't agree with this sort of thing myself.

 

[Standing Up]

First of all, why do you think that it is necessary to set up a competition between Mary and the Holy Spirit. Why is it that you see cooperation with the plan of God as competition with God Himself?

Here is a link of quotes from the Early Fathers showing that they did indeed regard Mary as the Ark of the Covenant:

Mary as Ark of New Covenant



Because he was wrong.

The earliest references are to Christ as the ark.