Question to Protestants regarding certain Catholic beliefs

[Albion]

I can find people from most religions that believe different things compared to others in their faith. It's not that rare from what I am finding.

So do we all agree that this is something (disagreements on doctrine among the members) that is to be found in both the Catholic Church and the non-Catholic churches? If so, the only issue would be whether or not the church bodies that we're considering CLAIM NOT TO HAVE such divisions.

 

[Julie.S]

Nowhere. As a matter of fact, I agreed with you and wrote "I agree" in my previous posts enough that I was afraid of having overdone it.

More to the point, I don't know why you'd think anyone was trying to stop you. (?)

I don't think anyone was trying to stop me at all.

 

[Albion]

Sorry. I don't know were this "attached file" came from or how to get rid of it.

 

[Light of the East]

You are quite amusing, asking me to provide an argument from silence. The ball, unfortunately, is in your court to show us anything in scripture that describes the Catholic system of priests.

Go back to the Old Covenant. You will find a description of the priesthood and corresponding high priesthood described there.

It's shame you don't know your Bible better.

 

[Goodbook]

We in the new covenant now and all believers are part of the priesthood. So, whatever tradition catholics are claiming to carry on, are no longer required.

 

[Light of the East]

We in the new covenant now and all believers are part of the priesthood. So, whatever tradition Catholics are claiming to carry on, are no longer required.

Old Covenant: Exo 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

New Covenant: 1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

These verses show the link between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. Exodus states that the nation of Israel was a nation of priests, yet not all were allowed to offer the animal, grain, and other sacrifices which were mandated by God, were they? And of all the priests who could, the Levites, only one man could be high priest and offer Yom Kippur (Lev. 16) once a year for the nation. Anyone else who dared enter the Holy of Holies would be struck dead.

Thus we see the pattern which God established when He established the congregation on earth known as the Church. In the Old Covenant, that congregation was known as the "qahal" in Hebrew. In Greek, it is called the "eklessia." Both mean congregation.

We see this congregation spoken of in Matthew 21: 33-46 in the Parable of the Wicked Husbandmen. The congregation, or kingdom, is referred to as the vineyard. Jesus Himself tells us this as He interprets the parable. The husbandmen are national Israel, led by the Pharisees. The husbandmen are thrown out of the vineyard and they are replaced by a "nation bringing forth fruits in due season." But notice this:

the structure of the vineyard does not change at all. There is no indication that anything is changed other than the leadership.

What this means is that just like the Old Covenant nation, the New Covenant nation has three distinct levels of priesthood:

1. The general priesthood of all believers in God. A priest is a mediator or representative between God and Creation. Adam was the first ever priest, a representative between God and His creation. And all believers do the same thing as we pray for our world and the people in it.

2. The Levitical priesthood. In the Old Covenant, they performed the ordinances of the Lord on behalf of the people. Only they were allowed to do so. In like manner, in the New Covenant, the priests perform the Sacraments of Grace and only they are allowed to do so.

3. The high priesthood. The high priest offered Yom Kippur once a year for the sins of the nation. That position no longer exists on earth, having been filled by Christ Jesus (Hebrews 7-10) in which He offers a continuous and eternal Yom Kippur in the "tabernacle not made with hands" in the heavenlies on behalf of the Church, the congregation of God.

Finally, there is no verse anywhere in the Scripture which states that the Levitical priesthood is abolished with the New Covenant. If anything, it is strengthened because Christ gives to the Apostles the authority to forgive sins (John 20:23).

Your comment has no scriptural validity.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

We in the new covenant now and all believers are part of the priesthood. So, whatever tradition catholics are claiming to carry on, are no longer required.

Good reply from LOTE!

Many "Bilble Only" people discard every single thing that is not between the covers of their 66 book Bible. In fact, we have many extra-biblical records from the first through third century (and onward) that show that the structure of the Chruch with a called and ordained leader and it's liturgical structure is indeed apostolic. The teaching of the 12 Didache from the 1st cent.; it is not at odds with Scripture but supports it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didache

 

[Linet Kihonge]

God's JEALOUS... He doesn't like when somebody else is considered Holy yet He's the only one who's Holy. He doesn't like that there are departed Saints who are considered Very Holy and can intercede for Saints yet the Holy Spirit knows he's the Chosen intercessor for all believers.

As Galatians !:8, "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God's curse!"

So what do we preach lest we be cursed???

 

[Light of the East]

God's JEALOUS... He doesn't like when somebody else is considered Holy yet He's the only one who's Holy.

And, of course, Scripture refutes this nonsense:

Ground is holy: Exo 3:5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.

Men are holy: Exo 22:31 And ye shall be holy men unto me: neither shall ye eat any flesh that is torn of beasts in the field; ye shall cast it to the dogs.

The Mercy Seat of the Ark is most holy: Exo 26:34 And thou shalt put the mercy seat upon the ark of the testimony in the most holy place.

Garments are holy: Exo 28:4 And these are the garments which they shall make; a breastplate, and an ephod, and a robe, and a broidered coat, a mitre, and a girdle: and they shall make holy garments for Aaron thy brother, and his sons, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.

Flesh of the Consecration is holy: Exo 29:34 And if ought of the flesh of the consecrations, or of the bread, remain unto the morning, then thou shalt burn the remainder with fire: it shall not be eaten, because it is holy.

God's people are holy: Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

God's angels are holy: Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

John the Baptist is holy: Mar 6:20 For Herod feared John, knowing that he was a just man and an holy, and observed him; and when he heard him, he did many things, and heard him gladly.

God's Covenant is holy: Luk 1:72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;


God's Law is holy: Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

God's Apostles and Prophets are holy: Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Our hands are holy: 1Ti 2:8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

Okay.....enough. Now let's get a bowl of popcorn and wait for the inevitable theological gymnastics designed to protect one's beliefs.

 

[Light of the East]

God's JEALOUS... He doesn't like when somebody else is considered Holy yet He's the only one who's Holy. He doesn't like that there are departed Saints who are considered Very Holy and can intercede for Saints yet the Holy Spirit knows he's the Chosen intercessor for all believers.

As Galatians !:8, "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God's curse!"

So what do we preach lest we be cursed???

Do you even KNOW what the issue was that Paul was refuting to the Galatians?

Suppose you tell me what the false gospel was that Paul opposed.

 

[Linet Kihonge]

Being Holy is a commandment... Man is not HOLY! But to enter his Kingdom, He's commanded to be Holy unless you know of "Holy" people or people without sin that we are unaware of... Therefore, the only person who's Holy is the Triune and even though Angels are regarded Holy they are not very comfortable with the regard...

Jude 1:9"...the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”

So let me pull out the Prayer part that is repeated severally when praying using the rosaries.

"Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death.

The Holy Spirit (The Triune) is the only one Holy, without any kind of weakness or infirmity and only ONE left to cater for the needs of all the Saints. So the LORD hates it! He doesn't want to share any form glory or Attention with Anyone!!!

Are you saying, "The Lord refutes the Holy Spirit is the only chosen intercessor for all believers (please in the context of the departed)?"

And, of course, Scripture refutes this nonsense:

Ground is holy: Exo 3:5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.

Men are holy: Exo 22:31 And ye shall be holy men unto me: neither shall ye eat any flesh that is torn of beasts in the field; ye shall cast it to the dogs.

The Mercy Seat of the Ark is most holy: Exo 26:34 And thou shalt put the mercy seat upon the ark of the testimony in the most holy place.

Garments are holy: Exo 28:4 And these are the garments which they shall make; a breastplate, and an ephod, and a robe, and a broidered coat, a mitre, and a girdle: and they shall make holy garments for Aaron thy brother, and his sons, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.

Flesh of the Consecration is holy: Exo 29:34 And if ought of the flesh of the consecrations, or of the bread, remain unto the morning, then thou shalt burn the remainder with fire: it shall not be eaten, because it is holy.

God's people are holy: Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

God's angels are holy: Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

John the Baptist is holy: Mar 6:20 For Herod feared John, knowing that he was a just man and an holy, and observed him; and when he heard him, he did many things, and heard him gladly.

God's Covenant is holy: Luk 1:72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;


God's Law is holy: Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

God's Apostles and Prophets are holy: Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Our hands are holy: 1Ti 2:8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

Okay.....enough. Now let's get a bowl of popcorn and wait for the inevitable theological gymnastics designed to protect one's beliefs.

 

[Light of the East]

Being Holy is a commandment... Man is not HOLY! But to enter his Kingdom, He's commanded to be Holy unless you know of "Holy" people or people without sin that we are unaware of... Therefore, the only person who's Holy is the Triune and even though Angels are regarded Holy they are not very comfortable with the regard...

Jude 1:9"...the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”

Okay................and the judges give.........

A 9.4 for the double backflip with ignoring the text altogether twist.

I am stunned at how well you pull this off. Scripture says "is holy" and you come along and try to say it is a commandment and that what we read is really not what we read at all.

But I'm not surprised. Jesus said "Except you eat the Flesh of the Son of Man and drink His Blood, you have not life" and the Church believed that for 1500 years until Baptists and others came along and denied that Jesus really meant it, so denying the Word of God is pretty much par for the course for some folks.

 

[Linet Kihonge]

Do you even KNOW what the issue was that Paul was refuting to the Galatians?

Suppose you tell me what the false gospel was that Paul opposed.

Okay, Galatians 1:6-8, "I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!"

(I understand Cephas was misleading the Galatians into believing in the Jewish laws and worse still, the Galatians seemed to go back to some of their enslaving traditions,

"Galatians 4: 8-10, "Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. 9But now that you know God—or rather are known by God—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable forcesd ? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? 10You are observing special days and months and seasons and years!"

 

[Light of the East]

Okay, Galatians 1:6-8, "I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!"

(I understand Cephas was misleading the Galatians into believing in the Jewish laws and worse still, the Galatians seemed to go back to some of their enslaving traditions,)

"Galatians 4: 8-10, "Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. 9But now that you know God—or rather are known by God—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable forcesd ? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? 10You are observing special days and months and seasons and years!"

Well, you understand wrong. There was a party of Jews going around trying to convince the new Gentile believers that they couldn't possibly be saved and be real Christians unless they were circumcised. Cephas (Peter) had nothing to do with this. They were called "The Party of the Circumcision (or the "Judaizers) and they were created havoc in the Church with their demands for observance of an Old Covenant ritual which had passed away and was replaced with baptism.

The two issues you post, however, have nothing to do with each other. The issue of calling people holy as God does has nothing to do with a first century heresy which denied the efficacy of Christ's atonement and encouraged converts to go back to Jewish ritual.

 

[Linet Kihonge]

Okay................and the judges give.........

A 9.4 for the double backflip with ignoring the text altogether twist.

I am stunned at how well you pull this off. Scripture says "is holy" and you come along and try to say it is a commandment and that what we read is really not what we read at all.

But I'm not surprised. Jesus said "Except you eat the Flesh of the Son of Man and drink His Blood, you have not life" and the Church believed that for 1500 years until Baptists and others came along and denied that Jesus really meant it, so denying the Word of God is pretty much par for the course for some folks.

Who declares what is Holy? (Man or GOD)

Man declares Mary as HOLY

 

[Linet Kihonge]

Well, you understand wrong. There was a party of Jews going around trying to convince the new Gentile believers that they couldn't possibly be saved and be real Christians unless they were circumcised. Cephas (Peter) had nothing to do with this. They were called "The Party of the Circumcision (or the "Judaizers) and they were created havoc in the Church with their demands for observance of an Old Covenant ritual which had passed away and was replaced with baptism.

The two issues you post, however, have nothing to do with each other. The issue of calling people holy as God does has nothing to do with a first century heresy which denied the efficacy of Christ's atonement and encouraged converts to go back to Jewish ritual.

Let's read Galatians 2:11, "When Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group."

v.14, "When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?"

Cephas was not Peter!

The verse was quoted to indicate, that it wasn't pleasant to preach any other Gospel other than what the Apostles preached unless it was relevant to the Gentiles and not to today's Christians.

 

[Light of the East]

Who declares what is Holy? (Man or GOD)

Man declares Mary as HOLY

Not the point. The point is that you were trying to say that God alone is holy and I showed you that God Himself calls, declares, states, and indicates in Scripture that people and things are holy. I was showing you, using Scripture alone and not my opinion at all, that you are wrong. People and things can be holy. God says so. Case closed, since it is God and not me or anyone else who says this.

Now why do you deny that the Mother of God, the Mother of our Lord, the Theotokos, is holy? Does God come into the world in a dirty vessel? Are you able to reason this one out? Why does it so bother you that God chose to make Mary holy so that He would have a fitting vessel by which to enter the world? If he calls the Ark of the Covenant holy, which contained Aaron's rod, manna, and the Word of God (10 Commandments) then how much more is the living ark of the New Covenant, which contained Jesus, who is the true bread, the living word, and the rod of Jesse, King David's son, holy?

 

[Light of the East]

Let's read Galatians 2:11, "When Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group."

v.14, "When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?"

Cephas was not Peter!

The verse was quoted to indicate, that it wasn't pleasant to preach any other Gospel other than what the Apostles preached unless it was relevant to the Gentiles and not to today's Christians.

Cephas is most certainly Peter. You lack any historical understanding of the Christian faith. Cephas is the Aramaic word for rock:

Behind the Name: Meaning, origin and history of the name Cephas. Means "rock" in Aramaic. The apostle Simon was called Cephas by Jesus because he was to be the rock upon which the Christian church was to be built. In most versions of the New Testament Cephas is translated into Greek Πετρος (Petros) (in English Peter).

Peter was not promoting circumcision in the above passage you cite. He was was simply refusing to eat with the Gentiles because of fear of censure from the Jews. Big difference.

 

[Linet Kihonge]

Not the point. The point is that you were trying to say that God alone is holy and I showed you that God Himself calls, declares, states, and indicates in Scripture that people and things are holy. I was showing you, using Scripture alone and not my opinion at all, that you are wrong. People and things can be holy. God says so. Case closed, since it is God and not me or anyone else who says this.

Now why do you deny that the Mother of God, the Mother of our Lord, the Theotokos, is holy? Does God come into the world in a dirty vessel? Are you able to reason this one out? Why does it so bother you that God chose to make Mary holy so that He would have a fitting vessel by which to enter the world? If he calls the Ark of the Covenant holy, which contained Aaron's rod, manna, and the Word of God (10 Commandments) then how much more is the living ark of the New Covenant, which contained Jesus, who is the true bread, the living word, and the rod of Jesse, King David's son, holy?

You twist, turn and force scripture to read what it doesn't read! So now that she was the living ark of the new covenant none of the apostles regarded her in that Nature. As I Said, If she's holy enough to successfully intercede or pray for Saints and have their prayers answered the Holy Spirit isn't getting that beautiful CREDIT.

Cephas is most certainly Peter. You lack any historical understanding of the Christian faith. Cephas is the Aramaic word for rock:

Behind the Name: Meaning, origin and history of the name Cephas. Means "rock" in Aramaic. The apostle Simon was called Cephas by Jesus because he was to be the rock upon which the Christian church was to be built. In most versions of the New Testament Cephas is translated into Greek Πετρος (Petros) (in English Peter).

Peter was not promoting circumcision in the above passage you cite. He was was simply refusing to eat with the Gentiles because of fear of censure from the Jews. Big difference.

Okay, Cephas was Peter! So How comes Paul rebuked him for forcing Gentiles to follow Jewish Customs?

 

[Light of the East]

You twist, turn and force scripture to read what it doesn't read! So now that she was the living ark of the new covenant none of the apostles regarded her in that Nature. As I Said, If she's holy enough to successfully intercede or pray for Saints and have their prayers answered the Holy Spirit isn't getting that beautiful CREDIT.

First of all, why do you think that it is necessary to set up a competition between Mary and the Holy Spirit. Why is it that you see cooperation with the plan of God as competition with God Himself?

Here is a link of quotes from the Early Fathers showing that they did indeed regard Mary as the Ark of the Covenant:

Mary as Ark of New Covenant

Okay, Cephas was Peter! So How comes Paul rebuked him for forcing Gentiles to follow Jewish Customs?

Because he was wrong.