Question to Protestants regarding certain Catholic beliefs

[Radagast]

Not all Catholics are the same though either.

I am aware that there are Marian devotions that even some Catholics think go too far... so you can imagine what the Protestants think!

 

[Julie.S]

Perhaps not, but there are plenty of other prayers and devotions that are very much the same as that.


That's true. Although they often claim to all believe exactly the same thing, not only are Catholics in disagreement with each other on many issues, but here on CF they have to have three different home forums to keep them apart from each other. Most of the Protestant denominations don't have to do that.

Now you know why I visit those forums rarely. I prefer not to get into the middle of things.

 

[Albion]

I have never seen that prayer before in my life.

Read this and get back to us, please, Julie.

http://www.theworkofgod.org/Devotns/Rosary/rosary.htm

and this is just one example.

 

[Albion]

Now you know why I visit those forums rarely. I prefer not to get into the middle of things.

I know. It's distressing, no matter which church's forum(s) we're talking about.

 

[JCFantasy23]

MOD HAT ON

The thread has undergone a small cleanup for flaming.
If you see your post removed, it was either flaming or quoting a post that was.


MOD HAT OFF​

 

[Julie.S]

Read this and get back to us, please, Julie.

http://www.theworkofgod.org/Devotns/Rosary/rosary.htm

and this is just one example.

That site seems not reliable 100%. Anyway I haven't said a rosary since CCD and that was in grade school. No one as far as I know is forced to say anything regarding Mary. If you don't want to you don't have to.

But just because someone does and looks up to her and someone else does not is not bad. It's their choice and has no impact on anyone else. I let other people of different denominations do as they please.

I could call some of the stuff they do weird to and perhaps worse. I don't though because to each their own. I'm not going to say what you do is wrong because religion wise it's right to you and I have no chance in the world of changing someone's mind probably. I also don't see why I should. We aren't hurting anyone because of what we believe and it being different.

 

[Albion]

That site seems not reliable 100%. Anyway I haven't said a rosary since CCD and that was in grade school. No one as far as I know is forced to say anything regarding Mary. If you don't want to you don't have to.

Well, this is all true, of course, but the question was not "What does Julie do?" but rather "What does Catholicism believe/promote/teach, etc."

But just because someone does and looks up to her and someone else does not is not bad.

I agree, but much more than that is involved, which is why that link was suggested.

It doesn't appear to be an official publication of the Church, but it certainly is typical of the many Catholic publications and schools and so on and IS what many Catholics, with the complete approval and encouragement of their church, believe and do.

I'm not going to say what you do is wrong because religion wise it's right to you and I have no chance in the world of changing someone's mind probably. I also don't see why I should. We aren't hurting anyone because of what we believe and it being different.

I agree, but this was the topic of conversation on this particular thread when I came upon it. If it had been about the way Methodists believe, of course any contribution that I might have made would have been about what I was reading on that subject.

 

[Light of the East]

ummm catholic.org for one. Here is just one of a plethora of prayers to Mary (although it is technically not addressed to Her, but to Her heart)

O most pure heart of Mary, full of goodness, show your love towards us. Let the flame of your heart, O Mary, descend on all people. We love you im- mensely. Impress on our hearts true love so that we may long for you. O Mary, gentle and humble of heart, remember us when we sin. You know that all people sin. Grant that through your most pure and motherly heart, we may be healed from every spiritual sickness. Grant that we may always experience the goodness of your motherly heart, and that through the flame of your heart we may be converted. Amen.

Yes, but there is a difference between saying that Mary saves us, comparing it to dying in the Cross for our salvation, and that She saves us by her prayers, which is the same as St. Augustine's mother praying for her son's conversion for 23 years. Would you not say that St. Augustine's mother's prayers saved him?

Perhaps not, but there are plenty of other prayers and devotions that are very much the same as that.


That's true. Although they often claim to all believe exactly the same thing, not only are Catholics in disagreement with each other on many issues, but here on CF they have to have three different home forums to keep them apart from each other. Most of the Protestant denominations don't have to do that.

Suppose instead of making an unwarranted and unproven assumption, you actually post some of these disagreements. From official sources.

If you don't, I call you know what on you.

 

[Julie.S]

Well, this is all true, of course, but the question was not "What does Julie do?" but rather "What does Catholicism believe/promote/teach, etc."


I agree, but much more than that is involved, which is why that link was suggested.

It doesn't appear to be an official publication of the Church, but it certainly is typical of the many Catholic publications and schools and so on and IS what many Catholics, with the complete approval and encouragement of their church, believe and do.


I agree, but this was the topic of conversation on this particular thread when I came upon it. If it had been about the way Methodists believe, of course any contribution that I might have made would have been about what I was reading on that subject.

I shared what I felt compelled to if people don't like it that's fine. I know it was not about what I believe but where does it say I can't share that?

 

[Radagast]

Yes, but there is a difference between saying that Mary saves us, comparing it to dying in the Cross for our salvation, and that She saves us by her prayers, which is the same as St. Augustine's mother praying for her son's conversion for 23 years. Would you not say that St. Augustine's mother's prayers saved him?

These two go well beyond just saying "save us by your prayers." The Moleben to the Mother of God:

Rejoice, Most Holy Virgin Mary, ever merciful Mother of God, and save all those who place their trust in you. O most Holy Mother of God, save us!
Rejoice, Mother of Eternal Love and save all those who place their trust in you. O most Holy Mother of God, save us!
Rejoice, Mary, our Intercessor before the just Judge, and save all those who place their trust in you. O most Holy Mother of God, save us!
Rejoice, Refuge of sinners, and save all those who place their trust in you. O most Holy Mother of God, save us!

And Sub Tuum Praesidium:

We fly to your protection, holy Mother of God, Do not scorn the petitions we make in the hour of need, but always deliver us from every peril, O glorious and blessed Virgin.

 

[Radagast]

I shared what I felt compelled to if people don't like it that's fine. I know it was not about what I believe but where does it say I can't share that?

And thanks for sharing.

The problem, though, is that I can find at least six Catholics that believe almost exactly the same as I do; but I can also find at least six Catholics with beliefs so utterly different that no conversation is possible.

Many of the "certain Catholic beliefs" that the OP refer to have a mild form (which at least some Protestants might accept), a normal form (which most Protestants would probably think goes too far), and an extreme form (which most Protestants would describe using very serious language indeed).

As to official Catholicism, I'm still not sure what that is. When I put together the Catholic Catechism, the Summa, the works of Augustine, and the other Doctors of the Church, I've only met three people in my life that believe what's written there.

Once upon a time I asked the people in OBOB, but they couldn't agree on what official Catholicism was.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I have never seen that prayer before in my life.

Not all Catholics are the same though either.

ACtually I had not encountered that prayer either until I visited catholic.org. I find that website very helpful.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

1. Referring to Mary as the Mother of God.
> Why are protestants so against this title, when it is actually true in away. If you don't deny that Mary is the actual mother of Jesus, likewise do not deny that Jesus was also fully God, then what is the problem? Isn't saying Mary is the mother of Jesus, saying "Mary is the mother of God"? I mean, Elizabeth said "the mother of my Lord" to her, and Revelations does talk about her in such a high fashion. Catholic's don't believe this statement means she is above or pre-exists God but just making sure that the divine nature of Jesus is not denied.

The phrase “mother of God” originated with and continues to be used in the Roman Catholic Church. One of the topics at the Council of Ephesus in AD 431 was the use of the Greek term Theotókos, or “God-bearer,” in reference to Mary. That council officially proclaimed Mary as the “mother of God,” and the doctrine was later included in the Catholic catechism. The idea behind calling Mary the “mother of God” is that, since Jesus is God and Mary is the mother of Jesus, she is the mother of God.

The major problem with this logic is that the term “God” implies the totality of Yahweh, and we know that Yahweh has no beginning and no end (Psalm 90:2). First Timothy 6:15-16 says that God is immortal. Being immortal, God never was “born” and never had a “mother.” The second Person of the Trinity, Jesus, did have a beginning to His earthly ministry when he was conceived in Mary’s womb and was born, but from eternity past He had always been the Son of God.

Philippians 2:6–7 gives us a bit more insight on what transpired when Jesus left heaven to become man. The New Living Translation says, “Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to. Instead, he gave up his divine privileges; he took the humble position of a slave and was born as a human being.” Jesus was already one with the Father, but He set aside His rights as Divinity and took the form of a baby (John 1:1). He went on to live the normal life of a Jewish boy, obeying His earthly parents (Luke 2:51).

A mother by definition precedes her child and at some point is more powerful than her child. So to call Mary the “mother of God” gives the misleading implication that Mary preceded and at one time was more powerful than the Lord God Almighty. Although Catholic doctrine tries to deny this implication, it is inescapable.

It is biblical to say that Mary was the mother of the Lord Jesus Christ during His incarnation on the earth. However, Catholics believe it is not enough to say that Mary was the mother of Jesus. Pope John Paul II, in a speech in 1996, encouraged people “not only to invoke the Blessed Virgin as the Mother of Jesus, but also to recognize her as Mother of God” (L'Osservatore Romano, 4 December 1996, p. 11). This is not biblical. The Lord God Almighty has no mother, since He has no beginning and no end (Genesis 1:1; Revelation 4:8).

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[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

1. Praying to Mary, angels, and the Saints?
I strictly thought this to be unbiblical, idolatry, etc etc.. and this was the first immediate practice that I ventured in refuting. However, after reading the Bible I understand the side of Catholics on this.

The issue of Catholics praying to saints is one that is full of confusion. It is the official position of the Roman Catholic Church that Catholics do not pray TO saints or Mary, but rather that Catholics can ask saints or Mary to pray FOR them. The official position of the Roman Catholic Church is that asking saints for their prayers is no different than asking someone here on earth to pray for us. However, the practice of many Catholics diverges from official Roman Catholic teaching. Many Catholics do in fact pray directly to saints and/or Mary, asking them for help – instead of asking the saints and/or Mary to intercede with God for help. Whatever the case, whether a saint or Mary is being prayed to, or asked to pray, neither practice has any biblical basis.

The Bible nowhere instructs believers in Christ to pray to anyone other than God. The Bible nowhere encourages, or even mentions, believers asking individuals in heaven for their prayers. Why, then, do many Catholics pray to Mary and/or the saints, or request their prayers? Catholics view Mary and the saints as "intercessors" before God. They believe that a saint, who is glorified in Heaven, has more "direct access" to God than we do. Therefore, if a saint delivers a prayer to God, it is more effective than us praying to God directly. This concept is blatantly unbiblical. Hebrews 4:16 tells us that we, believers here on earth, can "approach the throne of grace with confidence."

First Timothy 2:5 declares, "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." There is no one else that can mediate with God for us. If Jesus is the ONLY mediator, that indicates Mary and the saints cannot be mediators. They cannot mediate our prayer requests to God. Further, the Bible tells us that Jesus Christ Himself is interceding for us before the Father: "Therefore He is able to save completely those who come to God through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them" (Hebrews 7:25). With Jesus Himself interceding for us, why would we need Mary or the saints to intercede for us? Whom would God listen to more closely than His Son? Romans 8:26-27 describes the Holy Spirit interceding for us. With the 2nd and 3rd members of the Trinity already interceding for us before the Father in heaven, what possible need could there be to have Mary or the saints interceding for us?

Catholics argue that praying to Mary and the saints is no different than asking someone here on earth to pray for us. Let us examine that claim. (1) The Apostle Paul asks other Christians to pray for him in Ephesians 6:19. Many Scriptures describe believers praying for one another (2 Corinthians 1:11; Ephesians 1:16; Philippians 1:19; 2 Timothy 1:3). The Bible nowhere mentions anyone asking for someone in heaven to pray for him. The Bible nowhere describes anyone in heaven praying for anyone on earth. (2) The Bible gives absolutely no indication that Mary or the saints can hear our prayers. Mary and the saints are not omniscient. Even glorified in heaven, they are still finite beings with limitations. How could they possibly hear the prayers of millions of people? Whenever the Bible mentions praying to or speaking with the dead, it is in the context of sorcery, witchcraft, necromancy, and divination—activities the Bible strongly condemns (Leviticus 20:27; Deuteronomy 18:10-13). In the one instance when a "saint" is spoken to, Samuel in 1 Samuel 28:7-19, Samuel is not exactly happy to be disturbed. It is clear that praying to Mary or the saints is completely different from asking someone here on earth to pray for us. One has a strong biblical basis; the other has no biblical basis whatsoever.

God does not answer prayers based on who is praying. God answers prayers based on whether they are asked according to His will (1 John 5:14-15). There is absolutely no basis or need to pray to anyone other than God alone. There is no basis for asking those who are in heaven to pray for us. Only God can hear our prayers. Only God can answer our prayers. No one in heaven has any greater access to God's throne than we do through prayer (Hebrews 4:16).

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[Albion]

Suppose instead of making an unwarranted and unproven assumption

LOL That's no assumption. Not only do I know it from personal experience, and anyone can see it on CF, but all kinds of surveys have verified it. Why anyone would try to deny it is hard to imagine; all you need to do is fall back upon the idea that the Church itself teaches something or other--even if not all the members are on board with it.

 

[Albion]

I shared what I felt compelled to if people don't like it that's fine. I know it was not about what I believe but where does it say I can't share that?

Nowhere. As a matter of fact, I agreed with you and wrote "I agree" in my previous posts enough that I was afraid of having overdone it.

More to the point, I don't know why you'd think anyone was trying to stop you. (?)

 

[Radagast]

It is the official position of the Roman Catholic Church that Catholics do not pray TO saints or Mary, but rather that Catholics can ask saints or Mary to pray FOR them.

I am aware of that; but it is difficult to reconcile that official position with the wording of some of the Marian devotions, or with titles such as "Mediatrix of All Graces."

This concept is blatantly unbiblical.

I would agree.

 

[Albion]

I am aware of that; but it is difficult to reconcile that official position with the wording of some of the Marian devotions, or with titles such as "Mediatrix of All Graces."

That sums it up well. The Church will take an official stand on this and other doctrinal matters, but in practice she encourages the beliefs and behaviors that go against those disclaimers. For me and many people, it's not possible for any institution that's in the morality and truth business to say "Do as we say, but not as we do."

That was, as a matter of fact, one of the big reasons why the Reformation occurred--not entirely because of new doctrines but because of what the church did and allowed and justified in spite of official positions to the contrary.

 

[Julie.S]

And thanks for sharing.

The problem, though, is that I can find at least six Catholics that believe almost exactly the same as I do; but I can also find at least six Catholics with beliefs so utterly different that no conversation is possible.

Many of the "certain Catholic beliefs" that the OP refer to have a mild form (which at least some Protestants might accept), a normal form (which most Protestants would probably think goes too far), and an extreme form (which most Protestants would describe using very serious language indeed).

As to official Catholicism, I'm still not sure what that is. When I put together the Catholic Catechism, the Summa, the works of Augustine, and the other Doctors of the Church, I've only met three people in my life that believe what's written there.

Once upon a time I asked the people in OBOB, but they couldn't agree on what official Catholicism was.

I can find people from most religions that believe different things compared to others in their faith. It's not that rare from what I am finding.

 

[Radagast]

I can find people from most religions that believe different things compared to others in their faith. It's not that rare from what I am finding.

Yes, but when you look at, say, the Berean Bible Fellowship of East Texas, they all believe pretty much the same thing... all 100 of them.

(obviously the BBFET doesn't exist, but you see what I mean, right?)