Question to Protestants regarding certain Catholic beliefs

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I am not talking about Catholic sacraments, but I am sharing how the Bible says that every child of God ministers God's grace.

And Jesus is our High Priest and we all are in His priesthood, ministering God's own grace. So, ministering grace does not depend on some specific group's ways of sacraments, I consider. But, as I have offered > Jesus has gone through things of this life, in order to now feel for us because He has been through it all > this is part of His priesthood; and we all in Jesus share in His true priesthood by using what we go through to help us to feel for others and minister to them the grace which has made us able to do well in things we go through.

Also, our Apostle Paul has said we minister God's own comfort > 2 Corinthians 1:3-4.

You are not wrong, but God does not limit himself to your definition of how He delivers grace. I'll go with the Bible, which seems to back up what the ECFs taught; and what is retained in the Liturgical Churches to this day.

 

[Julie.S]

*************************

That may be so, but the foundation of the Catholic church rests on things like the intercession of Mary for sinners etc. The fact that you were not pushed to do something doesn't negate what Catholicism rests upon. The very fact that Mary is pronounced Co-Mediator means that they are taking something that belongs to Jesus Christ alone and giving it to a human being (there is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus). Other Catholics clearly not only pray to the saints, but think that they will get some special benefit from doing so (as the prayers to St Jude constantly published in the newspaper attest).

Yeah but no one is the same and that goes for religious people also. I am also not speaking for every single Catholic obviously. I do not judge others like that sorry its not part of who I am. I don't care if someone does not agree with me I wont let it get to me if that's what they want to happen.

Why are there also little *'s there in the quote never seen that done before.

Anyway

Have a good day!

 

[Julie.S]

**********
I don't feel bad about it. I feel horrified and astounded that Catholics believe in the perpetual sinlessness of Mary.

Why let what others believe get to you? I'm not asking to be rude I am more worried.

 

[bbbbbbb]

This is entirely your opinion unless you can back this up with both Scripture and proper exegesis of that Scripture.

Your turn....I'll be waiting to see what Scripture you give as proof of this assertion.

You are quite amusing, asking me to provide an argument from silence. The ball, unfortunately, is in your court to show us anything in scripture that describes the Catholic system of priests.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Strictly speaking, that's probably true. What you have is the assurance of salvation (AKA "eternal life"). But I think that that is was what was meant.

Precisely.

John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."

 

[bbbbbbb]

Oh, STOP IT!!!!

JUST
STOP
IT!

The Roman idea of the Immaculate Conception is based not in satanic ritualism but in a faulty anthropological understanding which came from Augustine's strange ruminations on anthropological reality.

Nevertheless, it is a dogma which must be believed by Catholics such as yourself in order to merit eternal life.

 

[bbbbbbb]

True, but it does allow for that belief since it has not dogmatically defined any of the positions on eschatology.

True. There are no dogmas concerning eschatological systems in Catholicism. One can just as easily be a Dispensationalist and a Catholic.

 

[com7fy8]

You are not wrong, but God does not limit himself to your definition of how He delivers grace. I'll go with the Bible, which seems to back up what the ECFs taught; and what is retained in the Liturgical Churches to this day.

Thank you for your message

 

[Radagast]

the concept of the Church of Christ being much bigger in principle than this is inherent in Catholic thought, both then and now. You know this, I really do think.

Catholic Catechism 818-819: "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.

Furthermore, 'many elements of sanctification and of truth' are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: 'the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.' Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to 'Catholic unity.'"

 

[Julie.S]

***********
I put in the ***s because I wasn't sure how to reply to what you said (but I will work it out. This format is new to me). It's not about everyone being the same. It's not about whether you are speaking for yourself or every Catholic on earth. Where the rubber hits the road, the Catholic church teaches what it teaches, and whether that is drummed into you are just suggested along the way, it makes no difference. A corrupt foundation won't stand.

If I was like some of the other Catholics I know (Some are rather strict and unforgiving for some reason) I could say what others believe is also wrong etc. I will not do so though because as one sees it the other will not see it the same way that's just the way the world is. I live and let live.

 

[Julie.S]

I'm not sure what you mean. I am horrified FOR CATHOLICS that they believe such things about Mary. It is a slap in the face of the Saviour to do so. To elevate a human being above God in the flesh. I am concerned FOR them because I believe in a literal lake of fire, just as scripture teaches, where those who do not know Jesus as their Saviour will spend eternity. I am concerned for their ETERNAL DESTINY because their trust is in someone and something other than JESUS to save them.

Do you know that others are told the same about that belief that was just stated there also though?
The way it is presented worries me because I have seen what leads to people being paranoid and worrying all the time. I was told to avoid such ways that's all. I'm not telling you to stop believing what you do.

Catholics look to Jesus more then some may think they do.

 

[Julie.S]

The world can be whatever way it wants to be, but JESUS is the truth and if we know him, we must follow HIM and walk in the truth. Jesus said MY sheep HEAR MY VOICE.

I follow Jesus too from what I know most Christians do.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I'm not sure what you mean. I am horrified FOR CATHOLICS that they believe such things about Mary. It is a slap in the face of the Saviour to do so. To elevate a human being above God in the flesh. I am concerned FOR them because I believe in a literal lake of fire, just as scripture teaches, where those who do not know Jesus as their Saviour will spend eternity. I am concerned for their ETERNAL DESTINY because their trust is in someone and something other than JESUS to save them.

As non Catholics, some presume to know more about Catholicism than Catholics do. As a Lutheran, I do take issue with calling upon the saints (Mary included) to intercede on my behalf. That being said, we know from the Bible that the saints do intercede; the revelation of St. John uses the symbolism of incense, brought before the throne by the saints as being the "prayers of the faithful". Martin Luther pondered this deeply and concluded that we don't know if the saints can hear our prayers (maybe they can), but since Scripture is silent regarding this, but is clear that Jesus Christ can hear our prayers, and that He does intercede for us; we therefore should pray to Him directly.

As Lutherans who follow the Bible, we do read much in the Bible regarding Mary and other early saints. Such being the case, it is good and right to commemorate the Saints with festivals, not because they take away from Christ, but because they point to Him and to the greatness of God and His mercy. We therefore call Mary "Blessed" as did Elizabeth; we also "Hail Mary" for being "full of grace" as the Archangel did at the annunciation. Because the Bible mentions such things, The Annunciation, Purification and the Visitation, we continue to note them each and every year; and with the whole Chruch we also mark August 15 as the "Festival of St. Mary, Mother of our Lord" to commemorate her transition from this life to eternal life. Right day? Who knows, but such is worth noting; Dormation/Assumption? Scripture is silent.

Either way, devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary points to Christ and His incarnation; it is in the Bible, and as long as it does not become a substitute for devotion to Christ, it can and should be maintained.

Some Quotes from Luther's sermons taken from "Luther's Works" as noted:

There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know. And since the Holy Spirit has told us nothing about it, we can make of it no article of faith . . . It is enough to know that she lives in Christ.
(Sermon of August 15, 1522, the last time Martin Luther preached on the Feast of the Assumption)

The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart.
(Sermon, September 1, 1522)

[She is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ . . . She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures.
(Sermon, Christmas, 1531)

No woman is like you. You are more than Eve or Sarah, blessed above all nobility, wisdom, and sanctity.
(Sermon, Feast of the Visitation, 1537)

One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God's grace . . . Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ . . . Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God.
(Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521)​

The Magnificat:

 

[bbbbbbb]

Catholic Catechism 818-819: "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.

Furthermore, 'many elements of sanctification and of truth' are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: 'the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.' Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to 'Catholic unity.'"

Thus we have the goal of invincible ignorance. The less one knows about Catholicism the more likely it is that one might be saved.

 

[Light of the East]

I'm not sure what you mean. I am horrified FOR CATHOLICS that they believe such things about Mary. It is a slap in the face of the Saviour to do so. To elevate a human being above God in the flesh. I am concerned FOR them because I believe in a literal lake of fire, just as scripture teaches, where those who do not know Jesus as their Saviour will spend eternity. I am concerned for their ETERNAL DESTINY because their trust is in someone and something other than JESUS to save them.

Mary is not elevated above Christ. Who told you that?

Mary did not die on the Cross. Who told you that our trust is in Mary to save us?

 

[Radagast]

Who told you that our trust is in Mary to save us?

Well, from time to time, one sees things like this (from the Moleben to the Mother of God) which say exactly that:

Rejoice, Most Holy Virgin Mary, ever merciful Mother of God, and save all those who place their trust in you. O most Holy Mother of God, save us!
Rejoice, Mother of Eternal Love and save all those who place their trust in you. O most Holy Mother of God, save us!
Rejoice, Mary, our Intercessor before the just Judge, and save all those who place their trust in you. O most Holy Mother of God, save us!
Rejoice, Refuge of sinners, and save all those who place their trust in you. O most Holy Mother of God, save us!

And this (Sub Tuum Praesidium):

We fly to your protection, holy Mother of God, Do not scorn the petitions we make in the hour of need, but always deliver us from every peril, O glorious and blessed Virgin.

Most Protestants are going to find such prayers shocking, to say the least.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Mary is not elevated above Christ. Who told you that?

Mary did not die on the Cross. Who told you that our trust is in Mary to save us?

ummm catholic.org for one. Here is just one of a plethora of prayers to Mary (although it is technically not addressed to Her, but to Her heart)

O most pure heart of Mary, full of goodness, show your love towards us. Let the flame of your heart, O Mary, descend on all people. We love you im- mensely. Impress on our hearts true love so that we may long for you. O Mary, gentle and humble of heart, remember us when we sin. You know that all people sin. Grant that through your most pure and motherly heart, we may be healed from every spiritual sickness. Grant that we may always experience the goodness of your motherly heart, and that through the flame of your heart we may be converted. Amen.

 

[Albion]

You are correct. While it is inaccurate to say that Mary has been placed above God, it is correct to say that the person's trust is being placed in Mary to save them.

The argument will be that she is merely the agent of God, etc., but it still amounts to the believer trusting Mary to make their salvation secure. There should be no question about this since it's even built into various prayers and devotions.

 

[Julie.S]

ummm catholic.org for one. Here is just one of a plethora of prayers to Mary (although it is technically not addressed to Her, but to Her heart)

O most pure heart of Mary, full of goodness, show your love towards us. Let the flame of your heart, O Mary, descend on all people. We love you im- mensely. Impress on our hearts true love so that we may long for you. O Mary, gentle and humble of heart, remember us when we sin. You know that all people sin. Grant that through your most pure and motherly heart, we may be healed from every spiritual sickness. Grant that we may always experience the goodness of your motherly heart, and that through the flame of your heart we may be converted. Amen.

I have never seen that prayer before in my life.

Not all Catholics are the same though either.

 

[Albion]

I have never seen that prayer before in my life.

Perhaps not, but there are plenty of other prayers and devotions that are very much the same as that.

Not all Catholics are the same though either.

That's true. Although they often claim to all believe exactly the same thing, not only are Catholics in disagreement with each other on many issues, but here on CF they have to have three different home forums to keep them apart from each other. Most of the Protestant denominations don't have to do that.