Predestination, is it coercive determinism ?

[98cwitr]

That's right, but it was directed to the children of Israel who were believers. It wasn't directed towards non-believers.
I don't think it's fair to make any conclusions at all that are not actually established in the Bible and predestination to Salvation is not. Of course feel free to provide some scripture that teaches that. What does Romans 8:29 say?

When God changed the heart of Pharaoh and the army against Joshua (Joshua 11:20) wouldn't you say that is the Lord directing the "steps" of non-believers? Paul speaks of the Lord raising Pharaoh up for a purpose in Romans 9.

 

[Rick Otto]

That's a lot of words!!

Not convincing, however. Sin can separate a man from God.

Paul is quite clear. Do you believe a person who has been cut off from God will go to heaven?

Yes.
It is talking about life here on earth, being cut off from the benefits of Christian community.
It's all right there in the comments.how else do you distinguish and iterate loss of rewards in heaven to keep from confusing salvation with heaven?
Consider this dear brother,... belief is the saving work of God.

 

[Rick Otto]

When God changed the heart of Pharaoh and the army against Joshua (Joshua 11:20) wouldn't you say that is the Lord directing the "steps" of non-believers? Paul speaks of the Lord raising Pharaoh up for a purpose in Romans 9.

Oh my! He violated someone's sacred free will?
Who does He think He is?

 

[StanJ]

When God changed the heart of Pharaoh and the army against Joshua (Joshua 11:20) wouldn't you say that is the Lord directing the "steps" of non-believers? Paul speaks of the Lord raising Pharaoh up for a purpose in Romans 9.

When God hardened the heart of Pharaoh it was because he knew that eventually Pharaoh would not submit. God however had a time frame he wanted maintained. One thing you always have to understand in the Bible is that God doesn't do anything arbitrarily and the decisions he makes are always based on His foreknowledge about what men will do. He also knew what Judas would be like, and still used it in his plan. He didn't make Pharaoh or Judas the type of person they became, he used what he knew they would become for his purposes.

 

[Rick Otto]

When God hardened the heart of Pharaoh it was because he knew that eventually Pharaoh would not submit. God however had a time frame he wanted maintained. One thing you always have to understand in the Bible is that God doesn't do anything arbitrarily and the decisions he makes are always based on His foreknowledge about what men will do. He also knew what Judas would be like, and still used it in his plan. He didn't make Pharaoh or Judas the type of person they became, he used what he knew they would become for his purposes.

I love this conversation. I can't believe how geeky I feel, but I love it. It fascinates me.
Stan, would you 'splain me what you mean by foreknowledge?
I get the impression sometimes, some people think of it as some kind of clairvoyance God has, instead of realizing creation wasn't a spontaneous act, rather it was known in detail from alpha to omega, before it was created.

 

[Radagast]

So those that make freely evil choices do it because God 'zapped' them, I.e determined it. Like original sin.

I don't see how that relates to what I actually wrote. There was no zapping in my little story (which was, of course, adapted from a standard argument).

 

[98cwitr]

When God hardened the heart of Pharaoh it was because he knew that eventually Pharaoh would not submit. God however had a time frame he wanted maintained. One thing you always have to understand in the Bible is that God doesn't do anything arbitrarily and the decisions he makes are always based on His foreknowledge about what men will do. He also knew what Judas would be like, and still used it in his plan. He didn't make Pharaoh or Judas the type of person they became, he used what he knew they would become for his purposes.

So yes, God does direct the "steps" of unbelievers.

Isn't it basically saying the same thing? Since He knew what they would do, and created them despite all of that, isn't the only conclusion is that He create them for that very purpose?

 

[StanJ]

Stan, would you 'splain me what you mean by foreknowledge?
I get the impression sometimes, some people think of it as some kind of clairvoyance God has, instead of realizing creation wasn't a spontaneous act, rather it was known in detail from alpha to omega, before it was created.

Well it's not me it's the Bible but basically foreknowledge means that God knows ahead(fore). Not in the fashion of being clairvoyant but because he does not exist or is bound by time. God created time and as we may look at a linear timeline of the Bible, God is able to do the same thing with time. Everything is laid out for him because that's the way he created it. God has no beginning or end because he doesn't exist or function within time.

 

[StanJ]

So yes, God does direct the "steps" of unbelievers.

Isn't it basically saying the same thing? Since He knew what they would do, and created them despite all of that, isn't the only conclusion is that He create them for that very purpose?

No , God created the Heaven and Earth. Genesis 1 shows us that.
That is also when time began and as I've indicated in my last post, God does not function in time he functions outside of time. How everything moved along after day 1 of creation is the effect of procreation and in that timeline God is/was able to see everything transpire because he can look at any section of the timeline and see what is going on. We in our finite minds don't really realize just how infinite of an involvement it was for God to do what he did in creating us and what it actually took. Suffice it to say that if you can understand exactly what it means for God to be proactive as far as our language is concerned then he would be considered the super proactive of all.
One thing that should also be considered is that the new Heaven and the new Earth will be estate outside of time as well in that it will be God's ultimate destination for himself and Mankind. Hence the foreverness that we are told about in His word and the eternal torment of the unsaved. The end of Revelation is also the end of time as we understand it.

 

[98cwitr]

No , God created the Heaven and Earth. Genesis 1 shows us that.
That is also when time began and as I've indicated in my last post, God does not function in time he functions outside of time. How everything moved along after day 1 of creation is the effect of procreation and in that timeline God is/was able to see everything transpire because he can look at any section of the timeline and see what is going on. We in our finite minds don't really realize just how infinite of an involvement it was for God to do what he did in creating us and what it actually took. Suffice it to say that if you can understand exactly what it means for God to be proactive as far as our language is concerned then he would be considered the super proactive of all.

I'm not sure I understand your point(s). Are you saying that God was not able to see His creation prior to Day 1?

 

[StanJ]

I'm not sure I understand your point(s). Are you saying that God was not able to see His creation prior to Day 1?

Sorry, I added some thoughts so please read it again and be a little more specific about the thoughts you are not understanding.

 

[98cwitr]

I think I agree with what you said, but Im still a little unclear so let me ask this: Does God have control over His creation?

 

[StanJ]

I think I agree with what you said, but Im still a little unclear so let me ask this: Does God have control over His creation?

To the degree that he has predetermined yes I think he does but control is not something that we would necessarily understand when it comes to God. As an example of the holy spirit is in control right now of all evil forces running amok in the world. Now sometimes that means preventing evil things from happening and as the Bible says holding back these powers from total chaos. The same thing can probably be said in terms of the geophysical chaos that is always going on in the world. The Ring of Fire would be one good example of that chaos, and although scientists and geophysicists would relate to it in the sense of the physical, it is bound to the spiritual in that God is in control of everything ultimately.

BTW, as I'm in and out of this forum, please quote on what I post in order for me to fully contextualized what I'm dealing with. I have a terrible short-term memory problem.

 

[bling]

I think I agree with what you said, but Im still a little unclear so let me ask this: Does God have control over His creation?

This comes up a lot and it has to do with how you define “control”.

God is in charge, but could God still be in charge and allow individuals to make some very limited autonomous free will choices?

Showing God strictly controlling some of man’s activities does not mean God would have to control every activity of man, especially if some activities allowed to be controlled by man would help man fulfill his earthly objective?

Just as God controlled Pharaoh early on does not mean Pharaoh never had any choice, could Pharaoh have early on shown to God (and this would be something only Deity might know) that he would never accept God’s love and thus took on a lower objective?

 

[Patmos]

I don't see how that relates to what I actually wrote. There was no zapping in my little story (which was, of course, adapted from a standard argument).

Yes there was 'zapping' in your little story. Here it is:

This is an old question. One modern answer is this: Imagine that I secretly put a machine in your brain. Whenever you have the choice between strawberry and raspberry, I want you to choose strawberry on Mondays, Thursdays, and Fridays, and raspberry on the other days. When my machine detects that you are about to make the "wrong" choice, it zaps you so that you change your mind. Consequently, your choices are 100% determined. However, it just so happens that you freely chose strawberry on (and only on) Mondays, Thursdays, and Fridays, so that the machine never actually zapped you, i.e. you were never coerced at any point. Thus determinism is not the same as coercion.

 

[98cwitr]

This comes up a lot and it has to do with how you define “control”.

God is in charge, but could God still be in charge and allow individuals to make some very limited autonomous free will choices?

Showing God strictly controlling some of man’s activities does not mean God would have to control every activity of man, especially if some activities allowed to be controlled by man would help man fulfill his earthly objective?

Just as God controlled Pharaoh early on does not mean Pharaoh never had any choice, could Pharaoh have early on shown to God (and this would be something only Deity might know) that he would never accept God’s love and thus took on a lower objective?

But he never would and God foreknew it...so the point is moot don't you think?

In other words: There is no other possibility or choice than the ones that are foreknown by God. Thus, the future is singular and static.

 

[Hoghead1]

No , God created the Heaven and Earth. Genesis 1 shows us that.
That is also when time began and as I've indicated in my last post, God does not function in time he functions outside of time. How everything moved along after day 1 of creation is the effect of procreation and in that timeline God is/was able to see everything transpire because he can look at any section of the timeline and see what is going on. We in our finite minds don't really realize just how infinite of an involvement it was for God to do what he did in creating us and what it actually took. Suffice it to say that if you can understand exactly what it means for God to be proactive as far as our language is concerned then he would be considered the super proactive of all.
One thing that should also be considered is that the new Heaven and the new Earth will be estate outside of time as well in that it will be God's ultimate destination for himself and Mankind. Hence the foreverness that we are told about in His word and the eternal torment of the unsaved. The end of Revelation is also the end of time as we understand it.

No, that is not accurate about predestination. In Calvin, God predetermined everything, right down to the smallest detail, ahead of time. This also included the elect and the reprobate. So everything happens exactly the way God planned it. We have no choice. You might take a look some time at the doctrine of election in the Westminster Confession of Faith, which makes the same point. God predetermined ahead of time who the elect and reprobate are, so there's nothing we can do about it.

 

[ToBeLoved]

That may be what it is called but that doesn't mean it doesn't apply to the church because Paul is actually teaching Timothy to be a pastor in a church.

Please follow the conversation. The person that I was corresponding with said the apostles only created one church. I said most of the Epistles are letters to churches. She gave Timothy as an example. I said that is a pastoral epistle, rather than a church epistle (ie. Rome, Ephesas, Phillipi, Corinth, ect)

So who said it didn't apply to a church? thanks.

 

[ToBeLoved]

But he never would and God foreknew it...so the point is moot don't you think?

In other words: There is no other possibility or choice than the ones that are foreknown by God. Thus, the future is singular and static.

I disagree. Because in the case of Pharoah, God SPECIFICALLY said that HE hardened Pharoah's heart. A few other times in His Word He says this too, I'm thinking Saul.

Exodus 912-13
12 And the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not listen to them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses. 13Then the LORD said to Moses, "Rise up early in the morning and stand before Pharaoh and say to him, 'Thus says the LORD, the God of the Hebrews, "Let My people go, that they may serve Me

 

[98cwitr]

I disagree. Because in the case of Pharoah, God SPECIFICALLY said that HE hardened Pharoah's heart. A few other times in His Word He says this too, I'm thinking Saul.

Exodus 912-13
12 And the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not listen to them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses. 13Then the LORD said to Moses, "Rise up early in the morning and stand before Pharaoh and say to him, 'Thus says the LORD, the God of the Hebrews, "Let My people go, that they may serve Me

Joshua 11:20
Isaiah 63:17
John 12:40